Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HdH_Cthulhu
Wow the Wheel of Sun and Moon SB plan is the most situational thing i ever heard of.
It requires such an obscure gamestate, i mean come on:
you cast lots of enchantmens, they all get destroyd/or countered, then you drop Wheel of Sun and Moon and now this card makes only sense if they could counter your replenish (otherwise you just win) and they have an extirpate in hand (and didnt played it in response to your replenish)and you have a second replenish ready.
If this gamestate doesnt occure it just hinders your own replenish!!!
QFT! Wanted to write the same thing, but it felt like a waste of time :wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waSP
It's counterintuitive, but I've played against a lot (A LOT) of very, very good control players. Playing the Wheel is right. The control players agree. You're free to disagree with me.
I guess you're playing with your own list and not mine. This means you pack Energy Field too, and changes everything. In my version wheel is just and additional graveyard hate to diversify threats against Ichorid and Loam. It's actually one of the weakest slots in my SB.
About this, what would you change in my SB? I'm thinking about wheel and some number of Runed Halos.
It's Blood Moon worth running in multiple copies? And a second copy of Sacred Ground? Have you got other interesting tech?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waSP
@Dr.Agon, UGx matchups should be around 70-80% (which has been my result, excepting Gro).
What do you mean by Gro? If you mean Counterbalance Threshold or Tempo Thrash (Canadian) they are the more popular of the UGx decks.
Declaring 70-80% of wins against threshold is quite a lot. Almost every deck declaring this in the format has, in reality, 10-20% wins less.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
What do you mean by Gro? If you mean Counterbalance Threshold or Tempo Thrash (Canadian) they are the more popular of the UGx decks.
Declaring 70-80% of wins against threshold is quite a lot. Almost every deck declaring this in the format has, in reality, 10-20% wins less.
Gro is basicly Thresh with Qirion Dryad.
While it is true that we play about 20 must counters against them, Threshold will always randomly win games with free counters + goyfs (as against every deck exept ichorid).
@waSP: It seems we have a very different playstyle at all, but i must say i like the Words of Wind concept. You could go nearly infinite, sadly you couldnt win the turn right away you combo off.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Not with the list I posted. But I wouldn't run that list in a longer tournament where multiple draws could be an issue. That is my 5 rounds or less list. The list for longer tournaments involves a Gaea's Blessing (additional help against Painter) and either Psionic Blast or Dimir Guildmage (the former if I expect more fishy things the latter for more controllish things).
I don't know why I have such a rough time with Gro and Merfolk. I think that its because their counterbase and removal arsenal are optimized against the build I run. I think Elephant Grass (a recent addition) should help some.
I'm not saying Wheel of Sun and Moon will win you the game outright or likely even be relevant, but it is a marginal improvement and it will draw a counter from the better control players I've known.
I've found Counterbalance Thresh and Tempo Thrash to be very good matchups. 80% is probably a little hyperbolic. I'd say I take around 65% of the games though, which turns into a 70% match record. I'm sure if I was playing against a flawlessly skilled player running a well-tuned Thresh deck, my results would come in a bit lower, but my tournament opponents are rarely both of those.
(a note: your match win percentage is roughly 3*x^2-2*x^3 where x is your game win percentage, roughly)
My interesting tech from the GP was Elfhame Sanctuary. With Wheel of Sun and Moon and Solitary Confinement, it functions as a Squee. It smoothes your mana in many games and makes Standstill (without vial) much more manageable. If you're in a fast metagame (where your plan isn't very often going to be a naked Confinement), it's probably a little too slow.
A note: I find Trade Routes gets countered a lot.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
the only really good blue enchantress card i know is In The Eye Of Chaos.
"Psionic Blast or Dimir Guildmage" --> hehe, very funny. xD
I agree with Wheel being a weak sideboard card.
no time for more. gotta go.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
blue is not the worst for enchantments...
w/o mentioning counterbalance...
back to basics
rhystic study
copy enchantment
chill (sb)
words of wind
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sauce
blue is not the worst for enchantments...
w/o mentioning counterbalance...
back to basics
rhystic study
copy enchantment
chill (sb)
words of wind
Well, counterbalance is not useful without top and top is not an enchantment, unfortunately. The UU is not easy on the manabase too.
Rhystic study plain sucks.
Copy enchantment is good if you already have something good on board, suffering the same problem Kiki-Jiki has in goblins.
Back to basics is probably worse than Blood Moon, making them free to play a fetch and fetch fasics ftw.
Chill can be a good SB card though, but it's fightning for its slot with Circle of Protection:Red, Warmth and Sphere of law, that are quite good cards too.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.AgOn
the only really good blue enchantress card i know is In The Eye Of Chaos.
"Psionic Blast or Dimir Guildmage" --> hehe, very funny. xD
I don't see what's funny. The former is a removal card turn 2-4 and a kill card after that. The latter does very, very well against deck with very little creature removal (especially after g1), getting you out of stalls or letting you recover more quickly from a Reverent Silence/Serenity.
Don't forget about Energy Field, Trade Routes, and Seal of Removal (wish builds with Gilded Drakes).
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
This is getting stupid.
Just post your list again, once you went Top 8 in a sanctioned tournament with more than 100 players. BOOYA!!
Did I mention that I was even first in standings after 7 rounds?
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
Well, counterbalance is not useful without top and top is not an enchantment, unfortunately. The UU is not easy on the manabase too.
Rhystic study plain sucks.
Copy enchantment is good if you already have something good on board, suffering the same problem Kiki-Jiki has in goblins.
Back to basics is probably worse than Blood Moon, making them free to play a fetch and fetch fasics ftw.
Chill can be a good SB card though, but it's fightning for its slot with Circle of Protection:Red, Warmth and Sphere of law, that are quite good cards too.
splashing blue is not worth it, what about black...
bitterblossom + contamination can achieve another win/lock..
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Why people keep wanting to splash other stuff? Red has Words of War, a fast and efficient win condition, and Blood Moon, which by itself already does almost as much as Contamination + Blossom without locking you out of any other mana. Black and blue only have relevant stuff that white, green or red can already offer or some useless cute little tricks.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jaiminho
Why people keep wanting to splash other stuff? Red has Words of War, a fast and efficient win condition, and Blood Moon, which by itself already does almost as much as Contamination + Blossom without locking you out of any other mana. Black and blue only have relevant stuff that white, green or red can already offer or some useless cute little tricks.
The reason, as stated above, is to improve some of the worse matchups. Some of us have to beat Thresh consistently in order to do well. Words of War is neither fast (several turns), nor efficient (you have to sacrifice a great deal of card draw to get the kill). Sigil of the Empty Throne is just as fast and far more efficient. Why aren't you arguing for a strictly G/W build? Is Blood Moon enough?
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waSP
The reason, as stated above, is to improve some of the worse matchups. Some of us have to beat Thresh consistently in order to do well. Words of War is neither fast (several turns), nor efficient (you have to sacrifice a great deal of card draw to get the kill). Sigil of the Empty Throne is just as fast and far more efficient. Why aren't you arguing for a strictly G/W build? Is Blood Moon enough?
With all due respect, words kills faster than sigil in most cases (do you play the deck?), and when blood moon hits in some matches, it just wins. Not to mention, words is indeed efficient, as you're never really using it unless you're winning, in which case you have a full grip and more cards than you know what to do with. There are of course exceptions to that rule, but for the most part it is what it is.
Thresh is a decent matchup for enchantress in general. If you can sneak an enchantress effect on the board you usually win as long as you don't play headlong into daze and cbalance. And that's before boarding in things like Choke, City, or whichever blue hoser you prefer. What are you splashing in that makes it significantly better? And what's the problem you're having that makes it bad in the first place?
That said, if you had to contort the manabase to make it work, I agree that it wouldn't be worth it. But the splash consists of 2 cards(words, moon) and (in most cases) 1 fetchable land. That's it. It really is essentially just GW unless you play an early moon, since words doesn't come down until you win anyway (and half the time I end up replenishing it out of my gy anyway).
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Illuvator Brightstar
With all due respect, words kills faster than sigil in most cases (do you play the deck?)
To be fair, though, Sigil provides a win condition that isn't entirely dependent on you having your draw engine in place.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waSP
The reason, as stated above, is to improve some of the worse matchups. Some of us have to beat Thresh consistently in order to do well. Words of War is neither fast (several turns), nor efficient (you have to sacrifice a great deal of card draw to get the kill). Sigil of the Empty Throne is just as fast and far more efficient. Why aren't you arguing for a strictly G/W build? Is Blood Moon enough?
WoWar is one turn.
It requires no sacrifice at all; it requires that you have the board position that means you're winning anyway. As do all Enchantress kill conditions.
Sigil is not just as fast, nor is it just as efficient. For one thing, it costs 5 mana instead of 3, which is relevant when supporting Confinement.
For another, it requires you go through the attack step, it doesn't prevent you from drawing your deck, and it opens you up to creature removal.
The added time is going to be especially relevant if you went to 5 turns and they have a Wrath of God or an EE.
And in exchange for a quick kill, all you need to do is play 1 Taiga.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Wheel of Sun and Moon has quite a few match-ups that it can be very useful in. For instance, you ever play it against Dredge? That bitch second turn then laugh.
Now with Extripate, I don't think many people play it in Legacy. There are just better cards, like Leyline. A Leyline of the Void could hinder you if you are too concerned about Replenishing. Would also be another good reason to run Aura of Silence. waSP was right, Aura stops there Top tricks pretty well, and you can sac it, kill something of theirs, then Replenish it back. You can't really do that with O-Ring.
And you forgot Standstill, Collective Restraint, and Mystic Remora. But I don't like blue.
Now then, I am seriously going to have to defend my precious Sigil. For one, no one plays with enough creature removal to deal with 10 angels, most don't have enough to deal with 4. You don't need to have board control when you drop Sigil like you would with Words. The :3::w::w: is more synergistic then the :2::r: cost of Words, seeing that 30% of our deck is :w:. You drop a Sigil third turn and see what happens. Then you drop a Words third turn and see what happens. And yes, I have done it, and it is gross. I don't think it is an issue of efficiency. I think it is a question of style and power level. I also think that the activation cost of Words is a hindrance that it shares with Mesa, Hoofprints, and Words of Wind, and makes it susceptible to Pithing Needle.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
You drop a Sigil third turn and see what happens. Then you drop a Words third turn and see what happens.
I think too many people are falling into this trap. Sigil is way better when dropped early on, especially against thresh/aggro. But it is 3WW, and you are only running one of them. The chances of you both having it and being able to cast it early on are slim to none. A more likely scenario is that you have 3-4 enchantress in play, 20 or less cards left in your deck, and then draw sigil. Here, sigil could very easily loose you the game. The other possibility is using grove to grab it earlier, but most the time i would rather grab moat/confinement/enchantress. Sigil is a better early drop, but words of war is a better finisher. I would run 1 of each, as sigil is essentially another enchantress, and can be used to win in a pinch.
Quote:
Wheel of Sun and Moon has quite a few match-ups that it can be very useful in. For instance, you ever play it against Dredge?
Aside from dredge, when would you ever want wheel? Even against dredge, between 3-4 groundseals, moat, 4 elephant grass, x runed halo, x oblivion ring, and 2-3 confinement, you should have a decent match-up. The only other place i can think of, is against loam. But ground seal essentially has the same effect (except against crusher), and draws you a card.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
honz
Aside from dredge, when would you ever want wheel?
Wheel is awesome against Solidarity, but I haven't seen that deck being played at tournaments for about 2 years now.
And yes, Wheel is slightly better against Loam, but it doen't let you draw a card.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
honz
I think too many people are falling into this trap. Sigil is way better when dropped early on, especially against thresh/aggro. But it is 3WW, and you are only running one of them. The chances of you both having it and being able to cast it early on are slim to none. A more likely scenario is that you have 3-4 enchantress in play, 20 or less cards left in your deck, and then draw sigil. Here, sigil could very easily loose you the game. The other possibility is using grove to grab it earlier, but most the time i would rather grab moat/confinement/enchantress. Sigil is a better early drop, but words of war is a better finisher. I would run 1 of each, as sigil is essentially another enchantress, and can be used to win in a pinch.
I think I fight so hard for Sigil is because of the build of Enchantress I am playing, which utilizes it better, so my opinion may be a little askew, but I can see your point. I think you may be underestimating some players though. Enchantress can be a pretty hard deck to play. I think that is why it's not very popular. Because we all know it is powerful enough to take on any deck.
Anyone dedicated to playing this deck will know how not to deck themselves. But won't most decks run both, or are we arguing if Sigil should be in the deck at all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
honz
Aside from dredge, when would you ever want wheel? Even against dredge, between 3-4 groundseals, moat, 4 elephant grass, x runed halo, x oblivion ring, and 2-3 confinement, you should have a decent match-up. The only other place i can think of, is against loam. But ground seal essentially has the same effect (except against crusher), and draws you a card.
In the mirror it's a bomb too. And what about Thresh? Mongoose won't get bigger is you drop it early enough. It's a very good card to have in your sideboard. Even late game, to tie my 2 together, drop Sigil, then Wheel. Now you don't have to worry about decking yourself, because you never will. Just sit back and make Angels.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Painter got top8 at Chicago?? That's news to me. Pretty slick tech, playing chalice and winning with dragon stompy beaters, though.
Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)
Yeah, sorry, I must be high. I have read the reports, just got wires crossed I guess. Just couldn't believe that a Dragon Stompy got in.
