Printable View
Hey, a bunch of top decklists run them!, just not very many. Magri has but 2 Tarmogoyfs main and one additional one side. They are a nice a addition, but not quite needed.
The real question is, if Tarmogoyf isn't an auto include at a four of and, if it is included but only as a 2-3 of, then why should Grunt, a card that tends to be weaker in this scenario, be?
Because Goyf is a vanilla beatstick whereas Grunt has an ability that is a huge bomb against almost all the top decks in the format.
It's ability shuts down threshold completely or slows them down by several turns. The fact that Grunt does this over multiple turns is actually an advantage over Crypt in most situations. You drop crypt, clear their yard, and they spend the next few turns making a full recovery. Whereas, you play Grunt, almost immediately shrink their Goyf so that they can no longer block a 4/4 with it. Then over multiple turns, you empty their yard. Those are turns where your opponent can't try to make a recovery, because it would only be helping out Grunt. So they end up being more turns behind than with Crypt.
It's ability greatly slows down all the various decks that run and rely on tombstalker.
It's ability is useful agianst loam based decks and against ichorid.
It's a tormod's crypt that beats for atleast 8 damage frequently. Yes, that does mean Dreadnought will win the game in one attack as opposed to two.
But really, you claim that you win many games by beating down with Trinket Mage and Factories. Jotun Grunt makes it that much more likely you can do that. If Jotun Grunt deals 12 damage, which is actually fairly easy to do, then you just need 4 attacks with either Factory or Mage to finish them off.
You guys are looking at Grunt wrong. It's hate against the most popular deck in the format (threshold), another extremely popular deck (tombstalker based aggro such as eva green and pox variants) and against several other decks first and foremost.
The fact that it is a beatstick is extremely good too, but it's not it's only function.
If all I wanted was a beatstick, I would play Goyf.
If all I wanted was graveyard hate, I would play Crypt.
But the fact is, I want both, and Jotun Grunt delivers, in a big way.
The fact that it just flat out outclasses opposing Goyfs (the most popular creature in the format) is just icing on the two layer cake.
This argument is over a year old and it still doesnt add up to squat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Tormods, crypt costs zero and provides and instant speed removal of the WHOLE graveyard as early as turn 1. The two arent even close. Crypt actually provides an obstacle for Ichorid. Jotun Grunt come on early as turn 2, sits there for a turn and then maybe gets to remove 2 cards before they combo out in your face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Clark, you sound like a Jotun Grunt salesman. You could replace Jotun Grunt and Crypt with Ford Taurus or Heineken, and it would be pretty much the same. Establish a false dilemma and then present your product as an alternative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Watch:
If all I wanted was a truck, I would drive a pickup.
If all I wanted was sports car, I would drive a coupe.
But the fact is, I want both, and the 1978 Chevy El Camino delivers, in a big way.
Theres nothing there, no argument, just salesmanship.
Plz, stop writing posts that take up half a page and say nothing.
Okay, Clark. I will explain this to you very clearly:
Grunt is slow. Slow is bad. It takes SEVERAL TURNS before it can effectively used. Just because it costs 2 doesn't mean it can be dropped turn 2. I think that you need to realize that immediately needs "now." It can take 2-3 turns before Grunt can reliably shrink Goyf. Sure, the ultimate outcome is nice, but this isn't magic.
Note: I never claimed that I won by beating down with Manlands and Mages. Cames can be won with that, but I never said it was the big way to go.Quote:
But really, you claim that you win many games by beating down with Trinket Mage and Factories. Jotun Grunt makes it that much more likely you can do that. If Jotun Grunt deals 12 damage, which is actually fairly easy to do, then you just need 4 attacks with either Factory or Mage to finish them off.
Honestly, dealing 12 is EASY? This assumes your opponent has done nothing for much of the game save put cards in his graveyard. I have only once evr seen grunt actually deal for 2 and that was against me when I ended up being severely manascrewed when playing Black Based Control.
You are looking at grunt wrong. You are right, it is great hate. However, when you are not busy hating, Grunt is busy wasting space. This would mean that Grunt would be an excellent sideboard cad, but not worthy of maindeck inclusion as you are arguing for.Quote:
You guys are looking at Grunt wrong. It's hate against the most popular deck in the format (threshold), another extremely popular deck (tombstalker based aggro such as eva green and pox variants) and against several other decks first and foremost.
Honestly,You seem to think everyone is going to be "Wow, a creature that could trouble me! I wish I had a way of dealing with it!" Maybe someone will next invent a way to counter spells and remove creatures.
If all I wanted was a decent way of winning, I would play Goyf.Quote:
If all I wanted was a beatstick, I would play Goyf.
If all I wanted was graveyard hate, I would play Crypt.
If all I wanted was decent hate against decks like Thresh and Ichorid, I would play Crypt.[/quote]
You know what delivers more? Goyf MD and Crypt SB.Quote:
But the fact is, I want both, and Jotun Grunt delivers, in a big way.
It takes time to outclass those Goyfs, like I said before. You seem to be thinking that your Goyfs will be sitting there for 3-4 turns unopposed while your opponent generously fills his graveyard to keep it in play. Magic doesn't work that way. If your opponent is threatened by it, they will try to stop it. And yes, if they are playing a slower grave dependent deck, and yes, if you can get the thing to stick around then yes, Grunt is good.Quote:
The fact that it just flat out outclasses opposing Goyfs (the most popular creature in the format) is just icing on the two layer cake.
Otherwise, it is a VERY bad Goyf.
The main problem with hating on graveyards is Dreadstill doesn't really need to accomplish this. I mean sure, if you really see alot of Ichorid then run 1 Crypt in the main but that's it. Grunt just isn't fast enough I'm afraid I think you'd be better off testing something else in that slot like O-Ring.
two more placings with dreadstill at Ancient Memory Convention 35th. 6th and 7th out of 53 people.
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy
one of the decks ran Erayo, Soratami Ascendant. I personally don't like him but have also not tested him.
Maybe this has been covered, but do Dreadnought-Stifle and Standstill-Factory have some sort of synergy with each other I am missing? What incentive is there to play these two specifically in the same deck, as opposed to, um, other things?
Gives you the ability to win those matchups Landstill has trouble with with an explosive two turn clock. Standstill and Dreadnought are great together you use the CA from Standstill to instead of controlling their board to drop a Dreadnought and win with countermagic. They actually are synergenic.
Nought-Stifle is an immensely powerful combo, but it needs protection for the 2 (rarely 3) turns it takes for Nought to rip your opponent's life to shreds. Landstill offers one of the most comprehensive defensive mechanisms there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
Dreadstll trades a slow reliable engine of kill everything, play wincon, hope to not go to time with a much weaker defensive shell, but is has the power to win much faster. Due to the presence of maindeck Stifles/Trickbinds, plus Dreadnought being able to wipe out an opponent quickly, I would estimate that Dreadstill has one of the highest matchups against combo in the format.
I think I will do some testing to confirm this.
I would definitely agree with you. Especially the black splash. Thoughtseize + Stifle murders storm combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
Even without a Splash you can not loose. I played about 40 games against TES and lost about 5. You have 4 FoW 4 Daze 4 Spell Snare 4 Stifle 1 Trickbind 1 EE and the best card 3 Counterbalance. Itīs near to a bye.
I don't understand why your TES opponent wouldn't just balls to the wall for warrens tokens. Seems to me that you could only tutor for your single EE on turn 3 into the turn 4 blow, so I can't understand how like 8 tokens wouldn't seal the deal against you.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
And now with Shusher (who, admittedly doesn't touch stifle effects) I can't imagine that you're 87.5% against TES anymore.
I would still estimate it at about 70% overall. While TES is digging for Shusher, you at least can pack on disruption until you drop a fast Dreadnought.
Since they cut Plunge a long time ago, the damage Dreadnought does is far less relevant, but a 2 turn clock with disruption backup is hot.
Yeah but they cut it for Infernal Contract...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
I meant to say Deed not Grip, I got a little repeatitious mentioning it a bunch of times. For a nihilist you sure get your panties in a twist on the source alot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
This is about correct. I've also updated my board to give Dreadstill relevant answers to Vexing Shusher postboard in the form of dropping Chills for BEBs and I have not missed them. Also Pithing Needle handles him fairly well too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
Ubg Dreadstill by Rob Rogers
beaters-7
3 Goyf
4 Dreadnought
draw/cantrip-11
4 Brainstorm
3 Dark Confidant
4 Standstill
artifact/enchantment-5
3 Counterbalance
2 Top
counter-17
2 Trickbind
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
land-20
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
side-15
3 Annul
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
3 Chill
Here is a ubg list I came up with and just wanted to post it in here.
some pros and cons of this build-
Pros-
*A huge number of creatures (14)
*The nice additions to the board that black gives you
*Way better vs. Gobbz
*Tons of draw power
*Quite strong in the mirror
Cons-
*No Trinket Mage tool box
*No Wastelands
What do you guys think? Is it worth taking out Trinket Mages and Wastelands for a 3 color build such as the above?
Hammafist your list above looks good, but the list seems to detract away from the plan of getting the dreadnaught on the table. However you replaced the trinket mage with stronger and more useful creatures making it like an threshold esque kind of deck with the dreadnaught combo. Also you lose E.E pithing and prehaps crypt main with this list, those things do come in handy at times and not to mention that sometimes against an aggro deck a stifle and a trinket mage is good enough to win the game if you have some counters.
Have you tested the list yet? It looks pretty good on paper but how is your manabase since your b/g sources are only from duals which can be wasted/ported.
I think wastelands are nice but losing them isnt a huge deal since my w/u list runs no wastelands instead i run 1 island,1 plains and 1 academy ruins.
I am looking forward you what you say about your testing with this list, it certainly looks like an fun/interesting version of dreadstill.
Hamma, if you must play a three color version without any wastelands, cutting an island or two for Fairie Conclaves might be worth a consideration to make sure you can make use of standstill.
Nothing sucks worse than giving your opponents card advantage with your own standstill because you only run Factory and they run Factory (to neuter yours) and/or Wastelands.
Treetop Village is an option too.
With that list you wonīt stand a chance against Dragonstompy and Dredge. High price just for the non-existen goblin matchup.
I agree, But I have been having some difficulties with the aggro match up. I am currently running the red splash variant and have been having recent success with pyroclasms in place of 2 spell snare.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
any other thoughts on how to deal with the aggro matchup mainly goyf sleigh and goblins?
Well goyf sligh really shouldn't be giving you problems, you can counter relevent stuff and preboard they CANNOT deal with Dreadnought. Post side Chill makes the match up near un-loseable. As for goblins counter relevent stuff and try to land a nought has become the "best" game plan but it is still 50/50 at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maagler
Goyf sliegh has been giving me a problem with all the burn to finish me off. I have found that If I do not get the countertop combo it is hard for me to deal with all their threats.
Dazes ruin them, g1 Dreadnought is normally GG for them. Also Snares, and Standstills tend to really get there for you.
I recently took second at Gateway Comics with Dreadstill. I had been testing both Dreadstill and Threshold, and in the end decided that Dreadstill would be the better deck. It is very powerful and fully expect it to be in the Decks To Beat forum in the near future. Props to Rodney for helping me understand better how the deck works.
I went through the Swiss without dropping a game. I beat Goblins and two Survival decks. I then beat Rodney in a very close mirror match in Top Four, being 0-3 to him prior to that. Then Fae beat me quite easily.
I played this (from memory):
// 8 Creatures
2 Goyf
2 Trinket Mage
4 Nought
// 2 Trinkets
1 Pithing Needle
1 Explosives
// 13 Counters / Removal
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Daze
//11 Draw
3 Tops
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
// 5 Counter Activated Abilities
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
// 21 Land
4 Mishra
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
6 Fetchland
4 Basic Island
// Sideboard
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Goyf
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Firespout
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Explosives
1 Gaea's Blessing (Because I feared Painter)
Obviously the maindeck Krosan Grips were amazing because you played against Survival twice, but do they deserve the slot? Do you feel like it's more of a metagame call or should EVERY list be running them?
Krosan Grip MB is definitely a meta call.
Oblivion Ring serves more problems but its not your splashcolor.
I haven't tested it, I don't ever play magic unless I am in a tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by uprite
CIP tapped lands are awful in legacy, nevermind in Dreadstill. Conclave and Treetop would be so bad in this deck, bad synergy with everything except for Standstill maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
The Grips were certainly a metagame call. Spell Snare would be better for a more general metagame, I think.
Krosan Grips mainboard in our meta are pretty good. I think the main intension of it was to win the mirror. Just an added bonus is he faced Survival twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
Krosan Grip isn't really that great vs. Survival, I think Spell Snare would do a better job at dealing with Survival. Rich noticed that there was 4 Dreadstill decks at the last Wareham tourney(2 Top8'd) and wanted to win the mirror(which he did).Quote:
Originally Posted by Roodmistah
Has anyone else not been liking needle in the main lately? I barely have searched for it my last tournament it just was not very helpful in the main.
Needle was the first card I cutted down to 1 in the sideboard. I rather like Crypt cause itīs good against Survival and Landstill too and gives you a really good Ichorid matchup.
oh i love needle in the main... it's just soooo versitile. i out right won a game against 3 color standstill simple because on turn 2 (on the play) i played a needle, he fetched with his flooded stand, which i stifled, then i named polluted delta with my needle... so much fun when he layed 2 deltas in a row the next 2 turns haha. keeping the number of needles down to 1 in the main is a good idea though, because not EVERY deck has good things to name with needle. but keep in mind, if you ever draw you needle, and don't have anything really good in mind to name it's always easy to name your opponents fetchlands.
Yeah I too like the needle, not so much for needling fetches though, my most common targets are: E.E., Pernicious Deed, Survival Of the Fittest, Umezawa's Jitte, etc etcQuote:
Originally Posted by MTL10
So anyways the deck got bumped into the DTB forum due to all the success it's been having which is awesome...oh I have been running 2x EEs main over the Needle in the main it's seeming to work out for me nicely I really like having two.
Dreadstill grabbed 1-4th Split, 9th, and 10th at the 34 player Pawtucket $500 tournament today. My 9th place list/report can be found here.
Here's the list I used to Top Four at Die Hard Games.
It was great all day. The combination of Goyf and Red sweeping damage let me power right past hate, such as agaisnt Feinstein Elves.
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
1 Trickbind
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Cryptic Command
// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slice and Dice
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Firespout
The Cryptic Command wasn't great, but I wanted another way to handle threats in the main deck. I think that it is worth further testing, but it didn't do much in the day. Otherwise, however, I was very happy with the deck, and thrilled with the sideboard.
Ancient Grudge Maindeck looks like a really really crazy meta...Could you explain it? I donīt like those lists with Goyf in the Maindeck and so many nonbasics tough because Back to Basics is such a hoser against so many decks and I just want the coinflip against Dragonstompy which I loose if I play such a "bad" manabase. But if it worked for you, itīs great ;) Congratz!
Isn't five stifle-effects a little low? I'd add one more Trickbind. I'd like to second what NQN said about that Grudge :rolleyes: What a weird card choice :P
If you really want that Grudge maindeck, wouldn't just 1 be better? +1 Trickbind, -1 Ancient Grudge IMO.