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While the idea of a "Shroud Sliver" would be nice effectively giving Crystalline Slivers 5-8, I think a card advantage or card selection sliver would be even better. Something along the lines of "whenever you cast a sliver, draw a card" or "whenever a sliver comes into play under your control, you may look at the top 2-3 cards of your library and put them back in any order." An effect like either of these would really help at pushing this deck forward.
What has happened to this deck, is that it was build for a c2005 Legacy Metagame based around a Goblins (or at least an aggro metagame) as the foil to these decks; as stated in earlier posts. However, if this deck is going to make in a '13 and beyond metagame is to either do two things. The first, which is what it did in the formation of the deck, is to provide a solution to the contemporary metagame. Or secondly, have an own identity of its gimmick; which might mean it is becomes on what it was foiling in the past: Goblins.
It might have been a midrange deck of the past; but right now can it be? Can it out midrange: Shardless; RUG; ect?
What needs to happen is deck to find its own identity; not be in the Good 'ol Days of 2005 and use all philosophies of the past.
Everything Slivers can do, another deck can do better. Want a tribal blue deck that can pack Force of Will to keep your opponent from interfering with your plans? Try Merfolk. Want an aggressive G/W/x deck? Try Zoo or Maverick. Want a controlling Esper deck with a strong creature component? Stoneblade has got your back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giles
The reason these decks are all better is because creature power creep has completely invalidated the Sliver model. Why would you want to play a deck that must get a critical mass of often different cards into play when you can play a deck where every individual creature is a legitimate threat on its own? Why be forced into over-committing because otherwise your dudes all suck when you can play one or two dudes and have them be awesome? There is no reason to try to play Slivers anymore aside from personal preference and a desire to waste a tournament entry fee.
actually, counterslivers took legacy nats in 2008 @ GenCon. I watched it happen and you do not have to reach a 'critical mass.' All you need is to know how to control the board until you have hit them for lethal, 3, 4 slivers on board max.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
-ABC
Edit: 100th post :)
2008 was still 5 years ago. There have been huge changes in the game since then, and Slivers hasn't benefited from any of them except maybe Cavern of Souls, and even that's debatable since it can't cast Brainstorm or StP.
Unless there's some new Sliver out of M14 that's just crazy good this deck is going to stay something you can have fun with at a local, steal a few games with Crystalline and your opponent's lack of matchup experience but if I hear of Slivers in any larger tournament that's not Standard or Draft I'll be very surprised.
Slivers are getting a 3rd muscle sliver right?
Yeah, an asymmetrical one. That's not really what Slivers needs, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwis
So... What do you think Slivers would benefit more from besides the silly idea at the top of the page? I think Bonescythe Sliver, Hive Stirrings, Sentinel Sliver, Striking Sliver, and Predatory Sliver all have merit for discussion. So far, that is the large majority of new Slivers. I do say boy, that's a possible Naya Slivers. 4c Slivers isn't a stretch since you don't even really have to worry about anything besides Supreme Verdict, and a greedy manabase isn't even a real issue since you have access to Gemhide. You can even go toolbox and use the sliver-cycler (I call it Sliver-Bullet :smile: ).
Also, yes, Cavern of Souls is an additional way to get your slivers in without the worry of Vial Dead Draws (I feel that to be a HUGE plus). Please note, I'm not saying don't run Vial, I'm saying as a 4-of it is no longer necessary. It's not insanely important to be able to play your non-slivers off of the Cavern, as this deck isn't exactly mana hungry with the emphasis in tempo more than control (no Counterbalance), and with it, Sword of Feast and Famine is at your disposal.
Even if it's not a candidate for teir 1, getting some conversation with people who share a love for this archetype would be nice instead of only the token naysayers replying with a token sardonic remark.
I have a buddy who has done some interesting things with Bant Stoneforge Slivers. NOT Tier One: FUN!
-ABC
Bonescythe Sliver: Costs four for a 2/2, doesn't immediately win the game. Unplayable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Hive Stirrings: Makes two vanilla 1/1s at sorcery speed for three mana. Competes for space in a limited number of spells slots with cantrips and counters (Bant) or removal and draw (Naya). Unplayable.
Sentinel Sliver: Potential sideboard material against aggro decks...but then, so is Talon Sliver.
Striking Sliver: Talon Sliver but in the wrong color. First strike does not usefully stack and Aether Vial versions of the deck would rather have Talon to maximize Vial at two. Not particularly playable.
Predatory Sliver: The only obviously playable new sliver shown to date.
Holy crap, the best winged sliver ever....
U
Galerider Sliver
All slivers you control have flying.
1/1
Rare
M14
Seriously? With Predatory Sliver....is this enough to resurrect the deck?
Probably not. While it's an improvement on Winged Sliver, it doesn't actually solve any of the deck's problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by KakerWhitekok
EDIT: To elaborate:
As discussed previously, Slivers was designed as a metagame answer to Goblins ages ago when anti-Goblins aggro decks basically didn't exist. It died because Goblins lost its Tier 0.5 status and then because Merfolk became a deck. Slivers' current problems are as follows:
- All of Slivers' creatures are individually terrible (1/1s or 2/2s for two);
- Slivers has to overextend in order to compensate for its weak creatures;
- Slivers needs to be in three colors in order to have a critical mass of lords.
The new Winged Sliver doesn't address any of these: a Flying Men is not really a great improvement on Sea Eagle because neither are actually playable in this format. Similarly, none of the other Sliver cards previewed thus far address these issues; the new Muscle Sliver means you can shed white if you want and still have eight lords, but that means abandoning Crystalline, Talon, and potentially Sidewinder Slivers, depending on whether you want aggro or aggro-control Slivers.
Merfolk are also all terrible on their own and they still work. Reducing the mana cost of a card from 2 to 1 is a gigantic improvement and a 3rd Lord helps a lot, too.
Merfolk just has more in the way of utility and flexibility in its creatures (draw, countering, and tapping in addition to the pump and evasion that it shares with Slivers). Slivers really needs at least some of that, or similarly useful additional mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Difference being that Merfolk gets all of its lords in one color. Considering Slivers only really have one advantage on Merfolk - Shroud - it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to destroy your manabase just to play a different sort of creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Not saying it is competitive yet, but simply dismissing an improvement because it doesn't fit a certain category seems bad.
Slivers aren't as good as Merfolk :eek: :eek: :eek:
Well, okay, now your Winged Sliver costs one less. Your deck is still Tier 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Marginal improvements that don't fix your deck's underlying problems are not going to make your deck any more competitive than it was. Winged Sliver was really more of a finisher anyway since the card does very little for you unless you can (1) attack profitably, and (2) you have enough lords in play to do actual damage when you swing. Of all the Slivers that this deck would like to see cheaper, Winged was not really one of them.
I don't care what Tier this deck is or will be. But you are wrong when you claim that reducing the mana cost of a card from 2 to 1 is only a marginal improvement.
Explain, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I think this deck would become as powerful as Merfolk if there was a Sliver Adept type of creature. How nuts would this be:
Sliver Adept
Creature-Sliver
When a sliver you control comes into play, you may reveal a sliver from your hand. If you do, draw a card.
1/1
Too good, I'm sure... Still, one can dream.