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I love that capsize, so much fun times :smile:
in rug fit I would play pyroclasm as a sac outlet, it kills so much.
Also stormbraith dragon is a nice finisher in red fit.
currently playing rector fit with dovescape, curse of death's hold and overwhelming humility as my targets.
I currently have 2 pyroclasms in the side. I went with collateral damage as it is a sac outlet + lightning bolt and the deck may just need to burn an opponent out for the win. If I can get the deck running smoothly I hope that I can cyclonic rift early to stabilize and then buy it back with e. wit and just keep going big plays afterwards. same idea for capsize and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plm
Stormbreath might actually be a good card with the number of StP I expect to face. I have also been considering kitchen finks if Thragtusk proves to take too long to help stabilize.
How is rector fit/ is obtaining a playset of academy rectors actually worth it? The deck looks kind of cool, but rector is more expensive that I would like to pay for a card that I may only play twice.
I've been brewing pretty heavily with Paradoxical Outcome lately. I think it's one of the blue payoffs given the mana in this deck. Plays excellent with Thragtusk, Ranger of Eos, Imperial Recruiter, Trinket Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Fierce Empath, Planeswalkers, Baleful Strix, Obstinate Baloth, Sower of Temptation, Shriekmaw, Clique, Deranged Hermit, Creature Nissa, Reveillark, Huntmaster of the Fells, Venser, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
I don't have a Nic Fit build yet but I think there's something there. The card even works very well with clue tokens since it gives us multiple ways to hold mana up and use it productively at the end of the opponents turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
Would love to see your decklist. I have played a few BUG variants and like trying new builds.
There are a lot of really cool ideas but I can't help but feel something big is missing. Since the meta is self-described as "super fair", I think you should find more value in some of the spells you play. You're banking on sacrificing permanents, but then what are you doing once you have mana? Your wincons are 2 thragtusk and pfires. If anything gets in the way of those cards I see this deck having a hard time winning (and a long time winning against an open table). To counteract this, I recommend reducing Eternal Witnesses in favor of Trackers (value --> better value). Tracker can be aggressive, draw cards, and at worst -- makes clues for you to pop off to your spells. I'd also play additional bombs to compliment Thragtusk. Either go bigger (titans, thundermaw, etc) or more annoying like TNN and/or Jace. How well this list handles a quick swarm or non-burnable creature is also important (see: no Deed).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
Tabernacle is a corner case card. It makes the creatures in play gain that ability. So you opponent, who is likely the controller of his creatures, own the triggered ability. If missed in Comp REL, he will get an upgrade to GPE - Missed Trigger as it is detrimental to him :pQuote:
Originally Posted by crowe_1
Edit: There was previously a discussion on this, link here -> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...otten-triggers
I posted it quite a few threads back -> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1024436Quote:
Originally Posted by Amulet of the HangingLamp
The sideboard keeps moving but the below are mostly the same in my games i played for the past 3 weeks with BUG Fit
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
With that many sacrifice effects I'd run at least 1 Dryad Arbor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
Also, outside of FoW (or doing nothing for a turn b/c you keep your mana open for Counterspell), how do you plan to interact w/ combo? You just screwed yourself out of discard, Lost Legacy and hatebears.
We run Cabal Therapy b/c it actually does something to mess with your opponents' gameplan (unlike that pseudo-Bolt or the Draw 2) and is an allround good card. Seriously, man.
My rector dies: trigger. Would you like to remove it with your DRS in answer to abort it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
lol
Spicy, but I would definitely find some room for crop with a tower as you can protect it with countermagic and it brings burnwillow tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
And perhaps a mix witness/snapcaster
Fortunately you only have to remind your opponent of the trigger, not of what he could possibly do in response of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
Yeah, I know, I was just joking around about avoiding any missreading effect Brael was talking about :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Possible BUG idea here. In the same space as I've been messing with lately which is abusing Paradoxical Outcome.
23 land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
20 creatures
2 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Sower of Temptation
18 spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Crop Rotation
First time on this thread as I've finally got some Junk duals and I'm thinking of venturing into Nic-Fit. I'm a big fan of the Academy Rector package and wanted to relive my first ever 60 card deck in grand style. The first Mythic I ever pulled was Descent into Madness and I made a terrible Mardu list with Assemble the Legion and Descent into Madness to lock the game down slowly. Is there any way that I could fit this into a Nic-Fit list for fun? I have no intention of winning a GP (or even a mtach) with this, but I figured I could slide the combo into a list for some fun. I guess my basic question is this: What is the shell that people commonly run for the Recto version of the decks? Any help would be appreciated as I'm still learning the basics for this archetype.
Thanks in advance!
Are you just going to use it to bounce your creatures at end of opp's turn? I don't really see any other combos with it...4cmc card really has to do some work if it's going to be better than Jace TMS in bug colors...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Block and bounce, bounce in response to removal, attack, bounce, and replay untapped. Basically Im just looking at using it as a large manasink that also generates a bunch of cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Compared to Jace, Jace takes longer to generate cards, is harder to cast, and doesn't protect our board. It also requires a tap out. Between clue tokens and this, you have enough to do at instant speed that you can tap for it whenever.
So...you are assuming you already have a creature or two on board. Ok. I still don't see how playing out Jace and brainstorming for the next several turns isn't just a much better play. Now your opponent has to deal with your board + Jace. Then your mana is freed up to actually cast the things that he draws you into, as opposed to removing them from your own board. Or you can bounce opponent's creatures like Angler/Delver/fatty/etc and allow your Trackers etc to get through. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but like...I'm just not seeing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Hello and welcome!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bromophelio
I think you are gonna regret if you buy into a brew that doesnt even win a game. I started my legacy career like that and it could have ended right there. Playing is fun, and so is winning.
So rector fit. The best creature, and most played by far, is death rite shaman. He can singlehandidly stop your gameplan so you need to have a bunch of answers to him. It can be a variety of cards, removal, ground seal, pithing needle.
Most people play the Evo leap configuration, which means you want as few creatures as possible outside of Explorers and Rectors. You want pseudo-creatures to do the fighting for you. I run Lingering souls and Garruk, Relentless.
The you want a couple of bombs to search for with rector. Sandwurm convergence wins a lot of games. Overwhelming Splendor, dovescape and to some extent living planes hoses different type of decks.
Other than that it's pretty much open. Other variations would be more creatures and no Evo leap. Or running Omniscience and fattys.
If you browse this thread you will see some iterations and decklists. My advice is to start with one of them and let the brewing come later.
I've been playing very high CA builds for awhile. Strix in this case is even faster than Bob. I think it's a reasonable expectation that you'll have 2-3 creatures on board.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Jace is good, don't get me wrong... I just don't think it's what this type of deck wants, Jace wants a different creature selection since he's a trickle of 1 card/turn, rather than a bunch of cards at once. I think there's a lot of synergies we can use here that Jace simply doesn't let us take advantage of. For example, the ability to use Sower of Temptation to take something, then bounce that something to our opponents hand, draw 2 cards, and then take something else. Another strong play is the ability to use Nissa finding a Forest twice (which also helps to ramp into the flip). Or Nissa, flip, make an elemental, bounce, and replay for a 3 point difference in loyalty while gaining a card. I also really like the ability to shortcut ticking up a Walking Ballista. There's a lot of good tricks here that Jace doesn't really lend himself to.
Anyways, it's just a theory I'm messing with (I've been brewing with outcome in all formats lately). I'm definitely going to be trying it at the next Legacy night I get but I'm open to the possibility of it not being good here. I think it will be decent though.
What about Oath of Nissa? 1cmc stuff that you can replay on the cheap sounds like another way to pull off some value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
It would work, it's just a question of cuts. It doesn't help that Oath basically has to come in, in place of removal but that it can't find removal for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Sounds like a whole lot of durdling and not accomplishing much.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
@Bromophelia: Fun is what we do. Welcome to the board!
Ya, I would rather bounce permanents that do things. I really love the idea of a late game engine pairing Eternal Witness with Paradoxical Outcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Ok, so this BUG NO list has won 2 online leagues and placed third in another one in the last 10 days, and that's a pretty nice streak considering how unusual Nic Fit appearances are in mtgtop8. The things that caught my eye are the inclusion of the Natural Order package (obviously), the 2 Wasteland and the 4 Gitaxian Probe. What are your thoughts?
20 LANDS
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
15 CREATURES
3 Baleful Strix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Veteran Explorer
21 INSTANTS and SORC.
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
4 OTHER SPELLS
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
SIDEBOARD
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
I'm not a fan. Not enough blue for the FOW's in the side, just an overall weaker version of using NO than what Elves is trying to do.
It seems to be catching people by surprise by using NO rather than actually winning due to it's power.
Then there's the issue of how Wizards cherrypicks results that they post.
So, you're concern here is that you don't get to be pro-active in the approach. Instead of trying to shred our opponents hand, get value, and then make big plays, this deck is trying to react to every play and try to eek out enough card advantage to finally make some big play after all resources have otherwise been exhausted by our opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
As far as this is concerned, that did feel like a bit of an issue when piloting the deck last night, however, I'm not sure if this was a result of reactivity being too slow or if I'm just trained to be proactive with my nic fit decks.
One incredibly nice thing that I found with this deck was the instant speed sac outlets allow me to turn 1 red mana up into double blue for a counter spell (an example that happened more than once last night). Black was definitely missing, but I'm not done with Temur yet, I'm willing to give it 1 more week.
-----
My run at my LGS went as well Echelon would have expected last night (0-2 drop). But I think that data set is a bit skewed and has actually motivated me to continue with the deck.
Round 1 vs White Eldrazi:
G1 otp:
I open with 6 lands and an eternal witness, mulligan to 6 and keep 3 lands, vet explorer, e. wit, and perilous research. Scry the land to the bottom.
I drop explorer, but my opponents first 4 plays are the relevant ones. They went, T1 chalice@1, T2 TKS, T3 chalice@2, T4 TKS. Even if I had cabal therapy T1 and named chalice they had a T1 TKS thanks to lotus petals. Deed might help but I need to draw it in between TKS and even then the position doesn't feel great.
SB in: 3 Blood moon, 2 Ceremonious Rejection. Out: 4 Collateral Damage, 1 Thragtusk
G2 otp:
I keep 7 which include 3 lands, vet explorer, force, p. research, and e wit.
I T1 vet again, and force pitching research their chalice@1. I draw blood moon and just need to dodge TKS 1 turn. They turn 2 TKS. I spin my wheels for a little bit but the following eldrazi turns were another TKS and reality smasher (happens).
I'm not sure what I could do in this match up as it were, they had wonderful stompy hands and I could not get off the board quick enough.
Round 2 Burning Wish RGCL:
G1 otd: I keep a hand of 5 lands (1 grove), vet explorer and punishing fire. Not great, but this is going to be grindy.
They manage a t1 loam and have thespian's stage in play.
I build a presence as they are unable to find a dark depths for a signifcant amount of time, price them down to single digits, and finally lose to a 20/20.
SB in: 3 Blood moon, 2 BEB, 2 invasive surgery, 2 surgical extraction. Out: 4 Collateral Damage, 1 counterspell, 2 Thragtusk, 1 cyclonic rift, 1 punishing fire.
G2 otp: I don't remember my opening hand, the game was really sweet and involves a lot of back and forth including, blood moons, k- grips, burning wish for [card]devastating dreams[/cards] to completely wipe my board. With an eventual me building back to price of progress, e wit, price of progress them out of the game.
G3 otd:
Still cannot remember how this went, but we end up in top deck mode with about 2 minutes on the clock, I get them to 8 life and just need to find a draw spell, a price of progress, a capsize, anything other than lands. I draw lands, they draw better lands and make a 20/20 as we're about to go to turns.
I get a bye round 3 and decide to go home instead of waiting around.
All in all, the deck out performed my expectations. The game against Eldrazi I am willing to chalk up to variance, they had a wonderful start, and I did not. Lands was actually winnable in all 3 games and came down to the wire. I'm going to test some more but I don't think Temur is necessarily an auto-reject. The instant speed sac outlet was so good, definitely something I am going to look to implement going forward.
The land denial might be there for a reason, but I'm not a particular fan of the wastelands. NO into progenitus is nice, but this deck seems to be a bit dedicated to the matter with 3 NO, if I were going to try this I would probably drop it down to 2 and cut Titania all together. She does well enough, but there are so many cards I want in that position. Even a second DRS to just help ramp faster (and DRS is generally a good card).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lueseto
All in all I do like it, I know NO is brought up once in a while, and I think has a place in some metas where you just want to close out a game on the spot. For me the big question with nic fit has always been, what colors am I playing, what do they provide for me in the current meta, what are they weak to?
So, in bug, which is really good in the grindy match ups like czech pile, and decent against combo, the biggest whiff is against stompy decks (from what I've found). And NO doesn't clear us out against TKS. But I guess I can't really argue with results that keep popping up.
The problem with playing reactively is that you wait for your opponent to do something in the hopes you can react to that (especially with cards like Counterspell) while either staying on par with your opponent or falling behind (b/c you don't make your plays when you could b/c you're busy waiting for the bus to arive). I really do wish you the best of luck, I just don't see it happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
And that last line made me lol :laugh:.
Couldn't have said it better myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Hi guys,
I have been thinking of picking up the pieces for Nic Fit - specifically versions with the card Meren of Clan Nel Toth. Does anyone have a solid abzan list with that card?
Thanks
IMO think Meren fits best in bug fit since you can recur Strixes all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I'm a fan of 3-4 Vet, 4 DRS, 4 Strix, 3-4 Tracker builds with a few Jaces but there is a huge variety in just about any list these days. Junk has like...Pridemage, Sakura-Tribe Elder...that it can specifically focus on with Meren.
Personally I'm planning on sacrificing Academy Rector to a pirate trigger and introducing that deck to Overwhelming Splendor.
With Abzan you have three real options right now depending on what threats you use to finish the game:Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
- Siege Rhinos. Great against aggro, mediocre against control, pretty awful against combo.
- Planeswalkers. Mediocre against aggro, great against control, varies against combo (Kaya and 3-mana Gideon are great, most of the rest really aren't)
- Stoneforge. Solid against aggro, solid against control, mediocre against combo (SOFAF helps), but get horribly wrecked by Kolaghan's Command.
The rest of the deck is something like this:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed (or Toxic Deluge)
2 Sylvan Library
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SFM addons:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dryad Arbor
Rhinos addons:
4 Siege Rhino
2 Thoughtseize
Walkers addons:
1 Gideon AoZ
1 Gideon Trials
1 Elspeth SC
1 Nissa VF
2 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Lost Legacy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 To The Slaughter
2 Toxic Deluge or Golgari Charm
1 Elspeth SC (or some other big walker if you already have one)
1 Gaddock Teeg
I defer to the others opinion on the matter, but I would have probably suggested an Abzan Pod variant to be best used with Meren. I know most people have moved to playing BUG when it comes to POD (and in general), but I like some of the white sideboard options. Gaddock Teeg being huge here since combo variants are the decks worst match up and a sideboard Sigarda means fair decks need to have a strictly better clock than you.
My old Abzan Pod List:
//Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteren Explorer
1 qasali pridemage
1 scaveging ooze
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Eternal Witness
1 tireless tracker
2 siege rhino
1 Meren of clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi Undead Vizear
1 Grave Titan
//Instant & Sorcery
4 Cabal therapy
1 abrupt decay
4 green sun's zenith
2 path to exile
2 Diabolic Edict
//Artifatcs & Enchantment
2 Pernicious deed
2 Sylvan Library
2 Birthing Pod
// Lands
2 swamp
3 Forest
2 plains
4 windswept heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 savannah
2 bayou
1 scrublands
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volraths Stronghold
So how would you change the lands? -2 Wasteland and +1 Phyrexian Tower and some other land? What would you put in instead of Titania?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
Natural Order looks fun and I think I'm gonna give it a go with 2 of them, so I'd appreciate any input. Someone else mentioned that the list's SB didn't make sense with the FoWs. What might be better SB options in general?
Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
Personally I've found that too many utility lands in BUG can be wonky - you already have to prioritize duals early in order to navigate with wanting Strix early. Single Phyrexian Tower can be fine. I was about to suggest Phyrexian Tower + Volrath's Stronghold but the list already has Meren to fill Stronghold's role.Quote:
Originally Posted by sobakasu510
The 4 FoW in the side of that list could just as easily be 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Faerie Macabre (personally I like at least 3 fast graveyard hate effects, and Faerie works well with Meren). Mixing your own discard, which is proactive, with reactive hate like Flusterstorm is a nice way to go.
Another idea is Ruric Thar in the side. From my experience with Nyx Fit, sometimes all it takes is a couple turns of disruption followed by oops-4-drop-I-win. Rector for Dovescape in Nyx's case.
Right now there are 20 lands (really 19, Dryad arbor is more easily thought of as a spell [I know it's not actually a spell by definition]).Quote:
Originally Posted by sobakasu510
From those 19 lands, 2 wastelands aren't helping us cast spells but are denying our opponents. If the pilot of that deck expects a lot of lands match ups or czech pile and just needs to falter them early, sure it makes sense.
But I would probably cut titania, a NO, and the 2 wastelands, and go +1 tower, +1 Bayou, +1 swamp, and +1 more dual (probably sea, if you don't have more duals then a 7th basic).
I always like having at least 6 basics which makes a convenient 3 vet triggers in the super grindy match ups. 5 seems a bit low but isn't necessarily wrong. This puts the land count to 21 (22 counting Dryad), which is better for a card like tracker, and also provides more options to cast all of our spells (getting choked on mana from aggressive wastelands/ports feels super bad with nic fit).
That would probably be closer to what I would sleeve up if I ran a NO BUG list.
With Nic Fit wanting as much of the resources available all the time, I would also agree to swap out force's which are costly for thoughtseize's. The difference between an early 2-1 and 1-1 could be the difference in winning and losing against fast combo.
B. Pod is cool in concept, but mostly just durdles and fails to apply pressure when needed.
The problem with Birthing Pod is threefold. The first issue is that there's little overlap between good GSZ targets and good Birthing Pod targets. The second issue is that while Pod is a strong engine, it takes a long time to get going and therefore you'll struggle against both combo and aggro... the combo matchup being more important here. The third issue is that it's a very slow deck. Not only does it take a lot of turns to actually win the game with some long grinding, but each turn usually involves multiple tutors and then shuffling, and that eats up the clock.
As a casual deck it's fun, but in anything with match timers, pod isn't going to perform well.
Funny, because 2 of the 3 best results a Nic Fit deck has ever reached are made by Pod versions...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Anyway, i've played a big italian tournament (ovinogeddon) with D&T because i haven't been able to get all the cards for Nyx Fit. but from the next tournament i'll totally take it again with me.
Still wondering about the right mix of manipulation, right now i've 3 Mirri and 2 Scroll rack but Mirri's performances are very volatile
I'm testing 1 Mirri 2 Library right now. Back down to 3 Lingering Souls and I've removed the Cavern for another dual. Also have entirely removed a GSZ-able fatty from the 75, adding in Chokes to the sideboard instead. And Teeg instead of Canonist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
Posted this in discord, but had a couple turns against aggro loam that went: cast rector, sac to tower, grab leyline of the void (to shut off pfire), use leftover mana to hardcast cruel reality. Next turn: play e witness, get back overwhelming splendor, sac to tower to hardcast splendor. :cool:
Which tournaments? If you're referring to leagues, it's relatively easy to get a good league result just by lucking out on the matchups. If you hit a bunch of Delver or other midrange decks, Pod can do well. It also does better online than in paper because paper adds about 1 minute per turn to each turn due to shuffles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
Anyways, like I said... Pod lacks interaction, and it lacks speed. It's powerful because every card generates a 2 for 1, but it's not where you want to be in Legacy.
Another good question would be when were those results, and (indeed) in what meta.
.... no, the three best results of Nic Fits are made by:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
-Brug Pod: best results ever, 6 of 426
-ScapeFit: 1 of 187
-Junk Pod: 5 of 173
Stretching the matter to every 100+ players with a Nic Fit in top 8, Pod is still the most winning version.
@Echelon: 1-2 years ago, depending on which one. I'll never play Pod in this meta because of Command, of course, but not for the problem said by Brael.
@Square_two: Scroll Rack is being the best one since now, it's the closest thing to Brainstorm we can have, and Brainstorm is what we miss to be a Tier (imho, obv).