Fragile usually refers to the decks matchup against countermagic, hence the term glass house. Volatile refers to how well it combos.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
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Fragile usually refers to the decks matchup against countermagic, hence the term glass house. Volatile refers to how well it combos.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
That's exactly what I meant. It is highly volatile! But also highly fragile. My meta has a lot of blue, so without a way to better those odds with this deck, I have to go back to playing blue myself. Unless I can get some help tuning to beat blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I've been trying to push Belcher players toward BW-less lists that way a few of us could start play testing it to find a good sideboard for the U matchups. Seriously 6-8 sideboard cards isn't enough. 15, however, can certainly make a huge difference. Carpet of Flowers, extra business, Bloodmoons, Autumn's Veil, etc. Also, its not like that is a traditional Belcher board either so nobody will see it coming. Belcher that can grind? Bitches be shittn there pants.
HOWDY FOLKS!
I've been lurking the boards for a month or so. Finally put a deck together and took it to a little tourney about 2 weekends ago. I did horribly, and not because my math game is weak. There was way more blue than I was expecting- 1 UW Landstill, 1 4 color Landstill, 1 U/R Delver. I also lost a mirror match that was epic fun, and I beat-up on an Affinity deck (living the dream of burning wish into Shattering Spree his board, slow play to a win.)
I played this- and generally liked it except for Past in Flames was never a worthwhile card (MD or SB), and using the Reforge the Soul helped a few control players unfortunately restock answers to my threats...
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
1 Taiga
Side-Board
4 Autumn's Veil
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Reverent Silence
1 Telemin Performance
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
Never used Tendrils; Gitaxian Probe gave me info I did nothing with; Seething Song is a red flag to ruin my day, but great when resolved; did use Telemin Performance against the UW Landstill deck and it would've been awesome had he not sided in Meddling Mage :( ; the Autumn's Veil would've been better as Xanthid Swarm (not nearly as much removal as I had expected there to be...) and only four cards to react to blue was not nearly enough, the Autumn's Veil couldn't be counted to protect anything and is useless against Stifle. A few games I could've won had it not been for Stifle (hypothetically.)
It was fun to play, the games drew out longer than I expected more often than not, blue decks take forever to kill and I'm not one to just quit. And I hate Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Interested in a wishless build with a better sideboard (non- Tropical Island / Personal Tutor build). Not totally sold on RtS, but it was pretty decent more often than not, I just wouldn't consider it a "business" spell, as it's not guaranteed to make a kill.
Just because the mirror match was fun- we were both at the bottom of the event, 1&3 - around 40 people or so.
The first game he put 18 goblins into play turn 1. I had a RtS so I played out mana then did that. Was one card short (stupid Chrome Mox) of firing off Belcher. From the new seven he drew, and his draw, he was able to cast Belcher and fire it on turn two. RtS backfired.
The second game I kept a slightly iffy hand, and expected to win on turn two, and he just fired his cannon on turn 1. I think it took about 6 minutes, including shuffling and counting storm triggers.
Keep up the fun and good work guys, I enjoy reading and learning from the group. Glass cannon go BOOM, indeed.
Cards on my poop list-
FoW, Stifle, Spell Pierece, Gitaxian Probe, Seething Song...
Want more of -
Defense Grid, Blood Moon, Carpet of Flowers, red blast
If you are looking for Wishless lists, has anyone put any serious effort into abusing Recross the Paths? It seems like a Doomsday in green for a deck like Belcher.
I did some tinkering after reforge the soul was spoiled (to replace the blue draw component), but couldn't come up with a good enough 7 that could beat permission. he fact that it could only make pass the turn piles by design kinda sucked too.
I don't see how you reached that conclusion. It's a more expensive Land Grant without the drawback of revealing your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
The Oracle text (emphasis mine):Quote:
I don't see how you reached that conclusion. It's a more expensive Land Grant without the drawback of revealing your hand.
If there are no lands in the deck, then you get to stack your deck (ala Doomsday). It doesn't even cost you a card, as you are guaranteed to win the clash if you want to (short of your opponent topdecking Emrakul, or the like).Quote:
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land card. Put that card onto the battlefield and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. Clash with an opponent. If you win, return Recross the Paths to its owner's hand. (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library, then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost.)
No deck is better placed to abuse this card than Belcher.
And why would you want Doomsday in belcher?
:confused:Quote:
And why would you want Doomsday in belcher?
Well, I can imagine all sorts of reasons. But people were discussing wishless Belcher, so it seemed relevant.
Belcher with Burning Wish wins by floating 4 mana into a Burning Wish. Wish + Warrens = 6 mana.
Belcher with Uncross the Paths would win by floating 2-3 mana into a draw card. The floating mana is then used to cast a draw 4 or something similar. UtP plus Meditate (for example) = 6 mana, assuming the initial draw into Meditate comes from Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith or Manamorphose.
Illustration: You stack your deck with Meditate, LED, LED, LED, some number of Gitaxian Probes (for however much extra storm you need), Belcher/Warrens/Tendrils. You draw Meditate with Gitaxian Probe/Manamorphose/whatever, and then cast it. You draw 3 LED and Gitaxian Probe. Play LEDs, cast Probe, cracking the LEDs, draw into your kill condition with 9 mana floating.
Absent disruption, resolving UtP with sufficient mana floating (it could even be less than three, depending on the draw engine used) instantly wins. Unlike BW, which wins next turn (except in builds using Tendrils, obviously), and is storm dependent (because it can't find Belcher).
Why is this awesome? Well, it's no more mana intensive than the play the deck is already making, but it also doesn't require you to clog up your sideboard with Wish targets, giving you an actual, you know, sideboard. Which was the point of discussing Wishless builds.
Equally, you don't need to lose your toolbox, because a singleton maindeck answer can effectively be tutored for with UtP (you just build your stack accordingly). There's a reason why DDFT is one of the best combo decks to play around hate.
It needs testing, obviously, but on paper it looks like it makes the deck faster (instant kills), better able to fight hate (finding maindeck answers game 1), better able to recover from a failed combo attempt (choosing your next few top-decks seems strong) and frees up sideboard space. If you don't see why these might be good things, I'm not sure what more I can usefully say.
@Requiem: Try page 65 of the thread. Just remember that the better RtP Piles uses Burning Wish (because BW -> Tendrils is cheaper than Belcher -> activate). It does allow you to cut EtW from the MD though.
Ah, I thought it had been mentioned before. After a half dozen posts of initial testing, though, nothing seems to have happened. The card seems to have been quietly dropped for no specific reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitium
Of course, while a RtP pile could use Burning Wish, it doesn't have to. Doomsday uses Wish because it has a limit of five cards. RtP, on the other hand, does not, so a free draw spell (such as Gitaxian) followed by a kill condition does the same thing (ie, allow you to crack LED in response to something that will get you the win condition).
I've actually played with Recross the Paths. Its not bad but its not maindeck material either. Perhaps it would be good in the post-board after you've already hit your land. I've Belched creatures before with Leyline on the field, stacked my deck, and won with EtW before. Why not do the same thing but with Recross?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciberon
I don't think this idea has been explored at all; post-board Recross the Paths. Carpet of Flowers gives you more perpetual resources so hitting 3 mana shouldn't be difficult. I do it all the time in PSI to cast D4s but Recross doesn't have to hit triple black so its much easier to cast.
EDIT:
Perhaps in non-BW lists, ie. 4 Reforge, 4 EtW, 4 Belcher, 1 PiF as business..
Post-board -
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Recross the Paths
3 Brainstorm
1 Meditate
1 Tropical Island
11th place finish at SCG Open: Seattle. Wishless build, piloted by Quiton Ewing -
Maindeck:
Artifacts
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
Instants
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song
Sorceries
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
Lands
2 Stomping Ground
Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
While I don't understand the need for two lands, I do like this build a lot, because it's wishless. The sideboard, I think I'd change the Crypt's to Blood Moon, or something with broader applications. Against Dredge and Reanimate, I reckon we just need to kill them faster. I'm also liking the Goblin Bushwhacker, it's a cute play, but I think a worthwhile one. Makes the turn you EtW a win if it falls correctly.
I'm happy there was a Top 16 showing. Wishes seem to be on the way out, what are the other general thoughts?
Cheers,
have they banned blue yet?
I wouldn't say wishes are on their way out. Some people like them others don't. I don't think having them or not having drastically improve consistency or make any bad matchups good. Both lists are still weak to counter magic.
Also a Wish build top 8'd the GP which I think is a bigger and more relevant event than the SCG open.
Can you post the list and link... work firewall isn't a fan of WotC's websites. And I agree, the Grand Prix is a better example than SCG Seattle.
Cheers,
are you a wish fan? Would also like Carpet of Flowers in the SB.
It's a pretty standard Belcher list:
1 Taiga
1 land
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
12 creatures
4 Burning Wish
4 Chrome Mox
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
47 other spells
Sideboard
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Hull Breach
4 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
15 sideboard cards
This list got 32nd:
1 Taiga
1 land
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
12 creatures
4 Burning Wish
4 Chrome Mox
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
47 other spells
Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
4 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
I play the standard wish list. The only thing I have different is I play 1 Bribery and 1 Reanimate in the sideboard. I found myself almost never using Infernal Tutor or Goblin War Strike. I also tried Diminishing Returns and Reforge the Soul in those slots and never really felt they were necessary nor fixed anything I needed them to fix. I'm using Bribery and Reanimate because wishing for tokens usually isn't good enough in those matches and doing something like Reforge or Diminishing Returns can give them counterspells. Also it's awesome to steal Griselbrand and just go off again.
Congrats! A wise pilot and avoiding some match ups make belcher tier 1!!
Its not just Dreturns/Reforge, War Strike, IT... the Wishboard is rarely used effectively for anything other than EtW. This is in part because you can't consistently expect to have a business spell in hand when you only play 11 to begin with. Thats why I keep pushing people to try the wishless lists. I really do think BW is on its way out. Until you can find a mana source with it and just run EtW/(sorcery ritual) in the board to take up a mere 2 slots, I don't think I would ever play BW. Its just EtW + 1R and its counterable vs. going up to 4 EtW copies maindeck and playing other business spells instead like Reforge the Soul, Spoils of the Vault. Hell I'd rather play Spoils of the Vault over BW if I can find 1 of 4 copies of EtW with it. You avg. 1 copy of EtW every 15 cards; I can't remember the last time Spoils killed me in testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk