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I think she'll be less prevalent but definitely still around. Before MM was printed, people weren't really on to her for legacy, she was just finally becoming a true powerhouse in standard at the time. Now that the jury is in on her, I think she's here to stay.
Lands 21
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Plains
2 Swamp
Artifacts 7
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
Spells 10
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
Creatures 22
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
SB 15
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meekstone
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Null Rod
1 Runed Halo
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
Remember this was pre MM and Batterskull. I don't think any of the other new swords were out yet either. If you want to read the tournament report you can find it here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...th-Hate-Crimes
Tim, did you drop Vial this summer only because of Mental Misstep?
Such build made top8 recently (before ban) at GPT Amsterdam (50+ people) here in Moscow:
[DECK]
Lands
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Plains
3 Swamp
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aven Mindcensor
Sorceries
4 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
[/DECK]
Upd.: Forgot proper tag for decklist :(
Suggestions to Tim's List (take it not to serious, as the european/german Meta is totally different from the US-Meta) in the Post-MM-Era
-Is the Karakas Main really ok, without a way to tutor it up? Sure its a good out against Emrakul and Progenitus, but in every Deck without KotR or a similar way to tutor it, it looks really random. But as I dont own one, my thoughts are theory only.
-The Equipments will be Jitte, Sword of xy and Batterskull, I assume. Vial makes SFM a lot stronger, from vialing him in EoT of your Opponent so you can vial in Batterskull on your Upkeep (if needed). Safes Batterskull from Discard... The Sword-Question is more challenging in my Opinion, as it relies much on Playstyle, which Sword fits. I for instance would go with Fire&Ice in the Main. Its Protection are OK (Blue more Important than Red) and the effects support the Deck as they fasten your Clock (Avenger = 3 Turn Clock), granting further CA and killing opposing Utility-Critter you dont want to waste your Removal on.
-As you save much Mana through Aether Vial, and you have 2 Maindeck Enlightened Tutors, wouldn't it be good to have a 1off SDT. You can tutor for it in Round 3-5 so you dont run out of Gas by drawing 11 Lands or control the Lifeloss of multiple Bobs.
Some thoughts that came on my Mind as I read your List.
In preparation for the new Liliana, I brewed this List for a Tournament on Sunday
// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Abyssal Persecutor
// Spells
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mortarpod
3 Chrome Mox
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 1 Planar Void
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Green
SB: 3 Tidehollow Sculler
The Goal of this List, is to decide games faster than the normal DGA-Lists do. For this I included Abyssal Persecutors into the List, in the Spot of Elspeth. He is the biggest Guy in the Air, has trample and has only cc4. The Drawback was never a problem for me with 8 Removal Maindeck and a tutorable Mortarpod. With Liliana there will be even more outs for him. Second alteration is Chrome Mox. I know, its an old Hat and not everybody likes the idea (me included) but in testing he did rather well. The deck can put up some fierce starts like
T1: Mox -> Hymn T2: Vindicate his Land T3: Percy
Sideboard is rather Random as I dont know how the Ban will work out for my Meta
PS: Osmin, the tag is [.Cards][./cards] without the dot
1: It does nothing to Progenitus.
2: It's a good one-of, the opportunity cost of running it is quite low.
@bfeingersh
I assume you are commenting my deck (you are a bit short in your post^^*)
1: 3 Perish from the Board + CoP: G to stall him was the Plan. I am aware I have no outs but racing him G1, but it looks ok with Percy, Batterskull, Nighthawk and Jitte
I was referring to Karakas in general.
I hate maindeck Karakas. Can't be fetched, wasteable, useless 90% of the time. It should only be a sideboard card, and even then only for decks with KotR or Loam.
Also, @Leto
If you're going the Percy route, I would drop Duress/Thoughtsieze for Cabal Therapy, Nighthawk for Gatekeeper, and possibly cut Mortarpod and the 4th Persecutor. He's a good finisher, but sucks in multiples, and you definitely want something uncounterable like Therapy to be able to get rid of him. You have 8 removal main already, but you don't want to be sitting on it just so you can off your own guy.
Karakas was a hold over from when I was trying out Weathered Wayfarer. At the time Emrakul was a pretty big threat and it seemed good to have around since it was on color and occasionaly useful. I certainly wouldn't play it now.
I didn't drop Aether Vial directly because of MM. MM also made other decks, like Counterbalance and Spiral Tide, non-playable so there wasn't a need for Vial. On top of that I fell in love with Bitterblossom and the build moved away from being creature based and making Vial worse for me. I never needed Vial, in fact it usually got boarded out in some number, and it was time for it to go in large part thanks to the effect that MM had on the rest of the meta.
As I've said repeatedly, Sword of Body and Mind is the sword right now. It's just that good. This deck just grinds it out and SoBM lets you swing through your opponents threats and generate your own. I do like SoFI and SoWP is also a strong contender depending on the meta.
The MD E Tutors will probably become SFM, she wasn't nearly as powerful last time around, since I think it's good to not tip your hand in the first game and SFM is still pretty awesome.
Top is good, but if I can find room for other cards I think I would want Thoughtseize first.
I would think that sword of feast and famine is pretty good in the metagame, since it fight combo pretty well and still gives you protection from relevant creatures (dumb green creatures and batterskull). Combined with mother of runes to give you pro-jace, I think you will be in pretty good shape.
Tim, how was the Weatherered Wayfarer in your testing?
Been liking that card sense it was printed for the first time in Onslaught.
Anyway neither of the versions will be the best. It all depends on metagame, personal preference and playstyle. For myself I cant say I like to play the vial version and prefair the more grindy version.
Quick question:
is it possible to introduce in this shell the Marit combo through the use of Vampire Hexmage and Weathered Wayfarer? Or is it just sick?
I would be in huge trouble finding slots for this. It would be +1 Depths +3 Hexmage +2-3 Wayfarer I think, 6-7 Cards for a "3-Card-Combo" is it not worth I think.
@Richard
4th Percy is only in there because of Chrome Mox to imprint him. Mortarpod via SFM is also "semi-uncounterable" but maybe I cut somewhere for the Therapy. Something I discovered when I played with him (I have ~40 Games with him) is, that it is not really hard to get rid of him. He hits the table, swings 3times and the Opponent is under 0. Good. I need to get rid of him to win but hes still a 6/6 sitting on my side of the Table = huge Roadblock for my opponent as well while I dig with Top and Bob for the Game-ending Card. He can not play Removal on him. There are little Creatures in Legacy that can pass him. Only Problem are Decks that finish via Progenitus or by spells (Combo, Burn).
Atm I have 10 Ways to get rid of him. Vindicate, Sword, Mortarpod, Jitte, 2 of them tutorable. Maybe I put in 1 or 2 Gatekeeper as well (for him and my NORUG-MU^^)
It is not obvious for me (and I think for somebody else) to board out Vial. In what match-ups would you do this? May be Zoo and fast aggro?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter
I never liked Weathered Wayfarer. My buddy swore by him, but he was also playing Crucible and was able to Wastelock people. I found him to be underwhelming almost all the time. A lot of times I would try to bait a Daze of Force with him and it wouldn't work and then he wouldn't do much anyway because I really wanted to be playing other things with the mana I had.
It is not obvious for me (and I think for somebody else) to board out Vial. In what match-ups would you do this? May be Zoo and fast aggro?
The more important question is when do you leave all 4 in? The answer is against Counterbalance and combo mostly, and probably dredge so you can flash in a blocker to get rid of their Bridges. Against everything else, you are the control and need to play as such. Therefore, you need cards that answer things on the board and Vial doesn't. Plus if you board in Chalice it's dead once you land one usually.
I'm not saying that you always take all 4 out. I'm just saying that you almost always take out at least a couple. The thing with Aether Vial is that if you don't have it in your opening hand, and aren't playing against something with a bunch of counters, then you aren't going to play it until the 4th or 5th turn anyway because you have better things to be doing with that one mana. They also come out, at least in some quantity, against other Vial decks because you want to name Vial with Revoker as it's usually much more important to their gameplan than yours.
I'm thinking Elspeth may be a good addition. After playing a good but more with this deck I think that she actually can be played on a fairly regular basis. Unfortunately this list is so tight I have no idea what to cut to make room for TS and Elspeth unless it was -1 Mom, -1 Revoker, -1 Vial, -2 E Tutor for +2 SFM, +2 TS, and +1 Elspeth...
Volrath's Stronghold is another decent choice for getting back Revokers and Avengers.
Philip: No comments on the list you were beggin me for?
Thanks for the explanations.
I wasnt begging, because I have my own totally different one. And I do like mine. I dont really like yours, but as youre obviously successful I cant say yours is bad. So I keep saying nothing. What do you want me to say?
I mean Id change too many things, cause I just personally dont like to play it this way - which shouldnt mean its bad - by no means.
Greetings
Hi guys! I've mostly just been lurking the forum until now.
I have a different version of DG ale than many of you, and it have done quite well so far.
But I'm really struggeling against NOprog.
What are your sb plan against them?
I try to keep removing their creatures, so my sac effects hits Prog, but most of the time i just can't keep up with all the creatures they play.
MY deck (testing some minor changes post ban. -2 Mirran Cruasaders + 2 Ghastly Demise and some sb changes)
4 Scrublands
1 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
1 Fetid heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Batterskull
1 SOLAS
1 Jitte
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
SB
1 Relic of Progentius
1 Thorn of Amethyst (or cannonist)
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Diabolic edict
4 Surgical Extraction
Run Perish. It is easily NO RUG's worst nightmare.
Depending on your meta you might prefer Retribution of the Meek as it hits a lot of the same decks, although it's obviously slightly worse against RUG and significantly worse against Zoo. Retribution catches some other stuff that Perish doesn't: Tombstalker, Emrakul, Reanimator.dec, most creatures with Swords on them.
(FWIW I side 3 Perishes and 0 Retributions)
did anyone test lilliana of the veil already?
How did she play?
Another question: With the meta getting faster, is it time to go back to Dark Ritual or Chrome Mox?
Quite sure merfolk will return with full force as it was before misstep took over the format. Quite sure im gonna stick with mox just to get alot more power when being on draw. Hopefully merfolk takes over the format making combo less appealing to play :P. I for one dont really want to use slots in the board for the combo if i dont really have to.
Hopefully alot more will be known after the next scg open.
Do you always side out mox in g2 and g3 (if you are not on draw)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
I almost always sided out moxen games two and three regardless of if I was on the draw or play.
Like I've said before, I think it's time for a return to Aether Vials. Good luck resolving anything under a Counter-Top lock.
I'm not sold on a return of CBTop, they had big problems before MM was printed due to a more diverse Mana-Curve in many decks and Cards like GSZ.
I am not that experienced, so maybe I am wrong on that thought, but some People who are way smarter than I am think the same, so I am not really worried about CounterTop atm^^
4 mother of runes
4 phyrexian revoker
4 dark confidant
4 serra avenger
2 jotun grunt
3 tidehallow skuller
3 stoneforge mystic
3 leonin relic-warder
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 sword of body and mind
1 umezawa's jitte
1 karakas
2 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 swamp
3 plain
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
Sideboard
3 enlightened tutor
1 thorn of amethyst
1 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus
1 ethersworn canonist
1 chalice of the void
2 ghostly prison
1 engineered plague
1 cursed totem
1 rune halo
2 burrenton forge-tender
Hi guys went back to the vial build with MM getting axed, and im taking this to a local tourey next week.
Took out vindicate and put in relic warder so that it wont be affected by thorn of amethyst.
Weighing the possibilities that combo and countertop will get a comeback and felt that vial is in a good position here.
What do the vial users think?
I've played with variations of Tim's Vial build off and on since seeing his performance in Charlotte, and now I'm leaning toward running something like it next weekend in Nashville. Got some tough choices to make, though, and thinking I probably can't reliably make them until late tomorrow when we see what sorts of things happen in Indy.
Anyway... thoughts/opinions would be appreciated on the following:
Serra Avenger: right now I'm running a split of 2 Avenger, 2 Mirran Crusader. Avenger's awesome, of course, but having a Crusader or two main has helped quite a bit shoring up the Zoo matchup and breaking some of the ground stalemates that come up a lot versus Junk. Not sure the split's right, though, especially if there's a lot of fish in the field.
The twenty-first land: I'd been running a singleton Volrath's Stronghold in this slot since the recursion's always handy, but over time I'm less and less impressed with it. Despite Tim's complaints about it not really belonging in his original list, I'm kinda feeling like going back to a Karakas here just because it sometimes randomly wins a game. Also, while the matchup against Hive Mind is good, things get a lot worse when they switch to the S&T into Emrakul plan, and I wouldn't complain about having another way around that.
Elspeth or Bitterblossom: right now I'm running one Elspeth, no Blossoms. Given that I'm already running Bob and don't have ways to gain life outside of Jitte, I feel a bit anxious about running Bitterblossom. On the other hand, a resolved Blossom just beats so many decks right now.
For the record, here's the list I'm tinkering with at the moment:
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Equipment
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Other
4 Aether Vial
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
Land
2 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Null Rod
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
I would add another Mystic and one Batterskull. Then you have more ways to get life. Then you could remove the Else for Bitterblossom
Do I see right? Not a single Thoughtseize or Hymn to Tourach? Thats madness. My list looks like this at the moment:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 SoLaS
1 SoBaM
1 Umezawas Jitte
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamps
1 Plains
Thats what I would consider to be a DGA - the Vial-lists are more like Blades of Glory?
Greetings
I went 2nd place out of 41 in a GPT today winning 3 byes for GP Amsterdam. I ran the following list:
Lands (21)
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
4x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
Artifacts (7)
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
Creatures (24)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Dark Confidant
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Serra Avenger
Instants (6)
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Go for the Throat
Sorceries (2)
2x Vindicate
Sideboard (15)
3x Perish
4x Mindbreak Trap
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
My matches were:
1: 2-0 vs Maverick
2: 2-1 vs Team America
3: 2-0 vs UW Stoneblade (he finished 1st)
4: 2-0 vs Reanimate
5: I.D.
6: 1-2 vs ANT with white splash
Quarter's: 2-1 vs Reanimate (same as round 4)
Semi's: 2-1 vs ANT (same as round 6)
Finals: vs UW Stoneblade (same as round 3) We split the prizes and played for planeswalker points. He won the first game, and I decided to just scoop the second, as my friends were already waiting for like 2 hours on me, and I was getting extremely tired and hungry. I really liked the vial version and am definitely taking this to the GP.
Hi, Aadz0r! Congratulations on finish.
Could you describe your sideboard plans? Side ins/outs.
Well, I created the sideboard the night before. I had a board without Enlightened Tutor, but after finding out that my combo match was worse than I expected, I decided to pack lots of anti combo. So, I brewed the sideboard with a friend who always plays ANT, so he told me what was good which was; if you have a canonist with protection on the field and a Mindbreak Trap in your hand they basically can't win. So I decided to go with the Tutors to make up for the space that the Trap's cost me. I wanted some hate against the random Dredge match which is pretty bad for us, and something against burn. I really wanted to play Warmth, but I couldn't borrow it from anyone, so CoP:Red is also good, especially with an active Vial. The Metamorph was for Reanimate, NO, and Show and Tell decks.
I'm usually very bad at sideboarding, so besides the things that are usual I might have done a couple of things wrong, but my boarding was as followed:
Vs Maverick: -1x Stoneforge Mystic, -1x Batterskull, -1x Vindicate, +3x Perish.
I don't really like Batterskull in this match, and so 4x Stoneforge is also too much. I think I should've removed another Stoneforge instead of the Vindicate.
Vs Team America: I believe I removed 3x Phyrexian Revoker and added 3x Perish. He only plays 4x Tarmogoyf I know, but since Revoker didn't have a target against him (I didn't see any Jace), extra removal is never bad. I left the last Revoker in, because I thought there was nothing to add, but I should've either put in a Metamorph to be able to block his Goyf or Tombstalker, or a Relic to weaken his Goyfs.
Vs UW Stoneblade: Nothing. The entire deck is just amazing against them. I didn't bring anything to ease this match up, because I think it is already at least 60-40 with all the hate we play, and I didn't bring a sideboard to ease our good matches, but rather to improve our bad ones.
Vs Reanimate: -4x Phyrexian Revoker, -1x Batterskull, +2x Enlightened Tutor, +1x Wheel of Sun and Moon, +1x Relic of Progenitus, +1x Phyrexian Metamorph
The revokers have no targets against him, and the Batterskull is just useless if they have a fattie. What came in seems pretty obvious right.
Vs ANT: -4x Swords to Plowshares, -2x Go for the Throat, -1 Stoneforge Mystic, -1x Batterskull. +4x Mindbreak Trap, +1x Ethersworn Canonist, +1x Thorn of Amethyst, +2x Enlightened Tutor.
Also seems pretty obvious to me. I need all the hate I can possibly get. I won game 2 on exactly what I hoped for: Canonist + Mindbreak Trap, and lost game 3 because I kept a hand with little hate. SHould've mulled there, but I was already top 8 and figured, screw it.
The top 8 matches were only matches that I already played before, and I believe I boarded the same. There was just one epic moment against Reanimate in the semi's. I had Vindicate + Swords to Plowshares in my hand with a confidant on the board. It was 1-1 in games, so the winner would go through to the last 4. He reanimates Iona naming white so I was pretty screwed, so I was like ****. Only Go for the Throat saves me now, so I flip with confidant: Phyrexian Metamorph. Me happy face, he looked like he wanted to throw up. After that I beat him down with confidant. :) And another moment was in the last game vs ANT in the semis, where he saw my hand, and saw I was holding a Mindbreak Trap, I draw Revoker in my turn, and have a Vial on 2, so I pass the turn. He plays Chant, Ponder, Dark Ritual, LED. I respond with Vial into Revoker and he puts up the 'sad face'. Two turns later I have lethal on the board next turn, and he tries to combo off without protection hoping that I would fail, but when the 5th card he plays is a tutor, and he has no cards in hand, I trap his tutor and win the game.
If you guys have any tips for me please tell me, cause I still suck with sideboarding and would love to get some advise from more experienced players.
Did you NEVER miss Thoughtseite or Hymn to Tourach? I couldnt play without them.
My own experience with playing Vial builds off and on for the past few months is that you really need to think about it as a different sort of deck. Traditional DGA runs heavy disruption and wants to use it to knock the opponent out of the game quickly, so that the sub-par (by Legacy standards) creatures can mop up.
The Vial builds, though, play a more tempo-oriented game; the disruption is lighter and less straightforward, and so you have to use it more carefully -- where "Swamp, Mox, Hymn you" is almost never a bad first-turn play with the traditional builds, a Vial-oriented deck will rarely drop Tidehollow Sculler immediately; in this deck it fills the sort of role Vendilion Clique does in some of the newer breeds of blue decks. You want to hang on to Scullers to Vial in response to a critical combo piece, or to clear the way for something that has to resolve.
Same goes for Phyrexian Revoker, and the Enlightened Tutor package with a bunch of bullets in the board; it's a different approach, and takes some getting used to, but can be very rewarding once you have some familiarity with it (and when the meta's right).
Well said.
But in the european Meta the "traditional DGA" as you call it is known as Deadguy Ale - whereas the "Vial-oriented deck" as you call it is known as Blades of Glory, so if you ask me, there are 2 different archetypes.
After that movie with Will Ferrel and Josh Heder?
I see several builds using Tidehollow Sculler as the only source for discard. With combo returning in full strength Thoughtseize is an auto include.
I prefer the Non-Vial list with a more disrupt oriented package and less creatures. Stoneforge Mystic, Confidant and Sculler with Bitterblossom and equipment do the job.
You would play the Sculler without playing Aether Vials? Thats pretty risky.
My list for reference:
Manabase
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Fetid Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
5 Swamps
Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Jötun Grunt
Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
Rest
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bitterblossom
Equips
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (or Fire and Ice)
I would play it but only as a 2 of in a non vial build.
If you play Vial you need to play 3/4 of and reduce the number of Hymns/Duress in order to take full advantage of it.