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I would at least try Vet/Therapy in a Survival list if i could now. I really do not know why we didnt run vet/therapy back in the days. Versions of Survival where in several colors not bound to black so perhaps that it was just overlooked.
Replacing Survival with Bpod for RGB Survival? Not sure what that looked like and what it woukd bring that now nicfit in jund or bug is missing.
In short, you needed duals + enough mana to get the survival-rootwalla-vengevine combo off. Why give the opponent mana/why force yourself to run a lot of basics?Quote:
Originally Posted by sco0ter
I don't see Pod replacing Survival as the two are very different animals. Pod is 1 activation per turn at a much higher mana investment. Pod "goes up the chain" with mana costs of creatures, whereas Survival went for the blitz with Vengevine or direct kill combo with N.Ooze (again due to multiple activations per turn + lower mana investment).
Not sure why people didn't run therapy in those lists but if memory serves me, the threats in the format were different and everyone's logic about how to build a deck didn't always shine brightly on certain cards. And it's not like the Internet hive-mind is perfect right now. There are folks I speak with who believe all Legacy decks could benefit from gitaxian probe.
@Ricardio: Indeed, we are all converging.
There where a lot of different variations of survival lists. Vengine was the last and existed shortest of all versions. Survival as a wider range might have had great benefit from vet/therapy. Namely the RecSur or Loyal Retainer version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Not quite survival and FEB didnt run black per se.
I think more decks were running more basics, depending on the year, and you want colour fixing, not ramp in that deck. I played RGBSA since 2003 until they banned it, and I see your point. Why didn't they run Sylvan? Diabolic Intent? Just the nature of the beast, and how we've learned and valued cards over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by sco0ter
If we're talking Vine builds, I have no idea. I hated the Vine and Ooze combos. Just straight RGB grind. I'll be posting my copy I'm rebuilding in the pimp thread, shortly.
Same 75 as last night
2mans:
UB Skill Borrower/griselbrand/SnT/void helm 2-1
Stole game 1 some how and drs'd him for like 14 life game 3
UW Miracles 1-2
g1 sigarda and karakas is good
g2/3 he jace ults and counters everything.
Actual slowest miracles player online. Chequesmoney
Open question to all the usual Nic-fit suspects (you know who you are)... how does your flavor/flavour of Nic-fit match up against the common blue decks? I've been losing to them with my Rock deck (close games, but losing nonetheless) and I'm wondering if I might have a better chance with Nic-fit?
The majority of decks at my local FNM (~25 players) are running blue control/combo: all the delver variants, shardless, deathblade, sneak, etc. Last night, 3 of my 4 games were against FoW decks. There has to be 60+ frickin copies of FoW in the room every friday night. Then we also get a wide selection of common decks in the minority: DnT, Maverick, DGA, Aggro Loam, Lands, Miracles, Dredge, Storm, MUD, etc. but they are just one or two-offs. I might go weeks/months before I play against any of the minority decks but I always, always, always get matched up against at least 1 blue deck.
So, I'm looking for opinions on which Nic-fit variant gives you a fighting chance against blue control?
Many thanks in advance for your advice.
Running Cabal Therapy naming Force is pretty tech. Rhinotime is great against most of the generic blue decks, since they run terrible removal. Sigarda is also amazing since they can't beat that card. Lands and Storm are your bad matchups, as are MUD/Eldrazi since they can go bigger and faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
All Nic-Fit decks are designed to be good against blue. Sometimes Delver can be too fast, but such is life.
To add to this, Junk add's Path to Exile, Karakas, Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Cannonist just to name a few. Siege Rhino is a bonus, but in no way a reason to run white splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Jund has Punishing Fire, Slaughter Games and supports Liliana, but on overall loses hard vs those bigdudes.dec
Path to Exile just beats Punishing Fires in this regard. I see Jund more as a more specific meta call where junk is ready for a wider meta.
Lifegain pulls you thru to the mid/lategame against the fast Delver decks. Once in mid/late you get back to gain control.
Most Delver strategies are easy to handle. Simply Therapy them then slam a creature. Sneak and Show, Omniscience based strategies are harder without Gaddock Teeg. Don't sac Veteran against Miracles unless you have to.
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Echelon... did you just won in Rotterdam? Or was that someone else? Don't know anyone else that plays NicFit and plays in Rotterdam. Also, there was something about shockduals that i remember you talking about. Edit; On the other hand, that build doesn't really match what you talk about.
Was able to squeeze into 16th at Mythic (52 players) on 4-2-0.
Lost: Eldrazi midrange (ie; Eldrazi crap), Shardless (had the nuts both games)
Won: URx Delver (Eli Kassis' new build, but it wasn't Eli himself), Grixis Control, BUG Delver (non-shardless), Jund Nic Fit (burning wish, scape-combo, no pfires)
Room was lots of delver, some amount of Nic Fit, lots of combo, several decks feat. Eldrazi. No Miracles at all.
Was able to acquire Nissa and Meren. Don't have to worry about finding/buying them from here on out.
Rapid reaction:
*Eldrazi midrange ran through me like shit through a goose
*Big flying chicks were insane today. Baneslayer as 61st card won 2 games by herself. Sigarda is unstoppable against delver. I want more of them.
*My card-draw was almost never seen....but that miser Skeletal Scrying was soooooo smart
*2 Teegs (1 main, 1 board) won the final round vs Jund Nic Fit.
*Ran 1 choke but wish I ran 2
*Carpet of Flowers stole me a game (won off 2 basics + carpet but was able to make 5+ mana per turn)
*SB was not the best, despite metagaming hard. Brought in surgical almost every matchup and it pulled its weight as a 3x
I'll be able to decompress and digest today's games in the next few days.
Post your list, scrub.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Read the Bones
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Eye of Ugin
//sb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
1 Nether Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize
2 Warping Wail
This is the final list for the Eldrazi variant that I played today at Mythic. As Warden noted already, there were 52 people, 6 rounds.
I decided that I was never actually tutoring for the Wurmcoil after putting it in, so I cut it in favor of a maindeck TKS to hedge against the hand-based decks and give me a little extra disruption...it was kind of a 16th sideboard card type of decision. As per someone's suggestion, I put in a Skeletal Scrying over the third copy of the Read the Bones, just to have one of that effect that scales into the lategame. Everything else remained pretty much the same.
Rounds:
R1: Doug McKay - UR Landstill
Doug's frequently on UR decks, but is very much a brewer. He's been favoring a Delver-style deck lately (although with a lot of his own twists), so I expected something like that.
G1: Absolute stomp. He shows me FoW, Brainstorm, Pierce, Counterspell, Snapcaster, and Clique...and nothing else. I resolve a Zenith for Primeval after some Therapying and Veteraning, and he scoops to my Titan with a field of Loci when he had only a Pierce in hand.
G2: I board expecting Delvers, and am slightly surprised when he plays a Faerie Conclave and some Factories. Soon enough a Standstill joins the fray, which chains into two more Standstills with three Force of Wills either played or pitched. I can't break through his wall of countermagic -- he had 4 FoW, 2 Counterflux, 2 Cryptic Command, and 2 Counterspell, along with some number of Snapcasters and Spell Pierces. I make a fairly critical mistake in the late game with Top/Therapy gymnastics, but it wouldn't have actually mattered given once I saw his hand. I think I may have made another mistake here -- I was pinched on mana (as in, I only had like 7 or 8), and had Emrakul in hand. I wanted to get Titan, but I knew he had a Spell Pierce in hand that would stop my Zenith. So, I should have Zenithed for Empath to play the Titan, which would have given me a Therapy body and also played around Pierce, but I didn't think of that line until partway through the day. He eventually hits me low enough that he can animate 3x Factory and Bolt my face for the kill.
G3: I reboard more appropriately, and keep a little bit of a questionable hand. In retrospect, I should've mulled it...but I didn't think at the time about how many black cards I'd sided in, and the hand had no access to black mana. I reasoned that I could Zenith for Sakura to get Swamp, and that his deck was super slow and would give me the time to get there. He allows Zenith for 2, but Stifles the Sakura, and I'm stuck sitting on black cards with no black mana for multiple turns while he develops. I eventually hit black sources, and get to come back into the game a bit, but time is called with no clear decider. He was at 16 to my 11, and the board was, as I recall, fairly even. It's very hard to say who would've won this game if we'd had more time.
Draw. 0-0-1
R2: Phil Cassidy - Reanimator w/Pyromancers
Phil's a friend and we'd been discussing his sideboard before the event, so I knew going in what I was going vs.
G1: He makes a Griselbrand after having triple FoW with cantrips early. I manage to Deluge away the Griselbrand, at which point he Reanimates Platinum Emperion and begins swarming with Pyromancer. I Deluge for 1 and block the Emp for a few turns, but he eventually navigates to getting Griselbrand out again and I can't stop the flyer.
G2: He makes a turn 2 Iona with FoW backup for my Wail to counter his Reanimate. He names black, which turns off my removal but still lets me play a game of Magic, ish. I go beatdown with two Vets, and we end up at 1 life apiece. Unfortunately, my 6th land was a fetchland, which prevented me from playing the Titan I'd Zenith-Empathed into my hand. Said Titan could've got me 2x Glimmerpost to gain 8 life, buying me a necessary turn against the Iona and would've allowed me to kill him. Too bad the traitorous 5th fetch was the land I had.
Loss. 0-1-1.
I'm genuinely annoyed at this point because I've seen nothing but things I would rather be playing on either side of me both rounds.
R3: Graham with Death and Taxes
I've never played this opponent, or seen him, before. His mannerisms give me the DnT read, which turned out to be correct.
G1: He plays a SFM and grabs Skull, which I can't interact with. He ends up over-committing and gets punished by Deluge. He eventually puts Batterskull on a Wingmare and goes up to like 34 life or some similar garbage. Unfortunately for him, I go nuclear with Kozilek. I use my 2nd Deluge for 5 to clear out the Vryn, and counter both of his StP with discarded 1-drops. Kozilek carries me to victory -- Karakas is a bad answer. Emrakul was coming the next turn, as well.
G2: He goes a little too aggressive early and I get to murder his Mother of Runes with a Decay (he swung with it twice....turn two was fine because Thalia, turn three was a misplay). He beats me down a bit with Thalia because I have to answer other cards first, like the Stoneforge that tutored Skull while he was stuck on two lands. I eventually stabilize thanks in part to the lifegain from Glimmerposts, as I bounce back and forth between 13 and 18 for like three turns in a row. Kozilek eventually distorts my opponent's perception of reality, and I win 2-0.
Win. 1-1-1.
R4: Phelan with Elves
Phelan is another friend of mine, and I knew as soon as I saw the pairings that I was going to have to deal with small green men.
G1: I win the die roll, and Therapy him, which misses. He makes a Heritage because he had double in hand and respects flashback, which is fine. I just play a land and ship. He uses Heritage to spew literally his entire hand into play, which I swiftly punish with a glorious massive-for-one Deluge on my turn. He never recovers and we're on to game 2.
G2: I rip his hand apart and use copious spot removal to deal with his creatures. I also got to Warping Wail to counter a Glimpse, which felt -great-. Kozilek hit play and wrapped things up nice and neat.
We also played a couple for-fun games afterward...three, I think. I won both of the post-board games and lost the pre-board game. This version's elves matchup might actually be decent finally.
Win. 2-1-1.
R5: ??? on Infect
I unfortunately didn't remember to write this guy's name down. Sorry!
G1: He plays a turn 1 Glistener Elf...well, at least there's no guessing here. I Therapy naming Vines, and see Invigorate, Heath, Noble, Sylvan (he'd mulled to 6). I eventually Deed away his board after going to 6 poison. I actually made a pretty big mistake here as I didn't Decay his Library when I should have, which gave him an out that he shouldn't have had. From there, I stabilized into Kozilek, which counters some spells and wins me the game. Just Eldrazi things.
G2: I have a literal asston of removal. Warping Wail exiled his first Inkmoth, which he brought in off a Crop Rotation. More dudes died. I Krosan Gripped an Inkmoth Nexus in response to an Invigorate, which felt pretty insane. Warping Wail the 2nd made an Eldrazi Spawn at his EoT, to untap into flashback Therapy, take his Dazes, play Primeval Titan, which got me Eye and a Post, which let me get Kozilek the next turn. Fun fact: a resolved Kozilek is basically better than Infect.
Win. 3-1-1.
At this point I'm 50/50 to make top 8 with a win...there were an unusually high number of X-1s, but if I win I'm at least locked for 9th-10th and $60. Feeling pretty good.
R6: Brian with Goblins
I, again, know my opponent and what he's on.
G1: We dance around early on for a while -- I have an early Vet and Decay his Vial while he's stuck on two lands, but he Tarfires one of my two Veterans and gets some lands. His hand is super gas heavy, and he buries me in cards...eventually assembling Kiki-jiki with Matron.
G2: He aggros me super super low quickly, putting me to 8 before I can sweep him and leave him with just a Kiki-Jiki in play. He swings for a couple turns, putting me to 2 at my lowest. I get to play a Glimmerpost back to 4, and float a Wail on top of my deck. He tries to Kiki-jiki his Matron, which I get to respond to by exiling the Matron, time walking him. He's flooding out while I finally hit Primeval and get some Glimmerposts to gain life and feel a bit safer. I stabilize and tentacle him.
G3: He keeps another land-light gas-heavy hand, and doesn't get punished by his deck. I don't have any Veterans to accelerate him, but my spot removal can't keep up with his swarm of hasty card advantage machines, and I eventually succumb after never seeing any of my sweepers, Zeniths, Explorers, or midrange bros. I basically just drew/Topped into lands and spot removal, which isn't really enough to deal with Goblins.
Loss. 3-2-1 Final Record.
-------------------
Thoughts:
-) Emrakul may not be necessary. Kozilek did WAY MORE work than I thought that he would. I mean, I knew he was good...but goddamn. Kozilek is the payoff for playing this version, and I can safely say that he is very worth it. He feels very much like the 1-card combo nature of Scapewish, in a way. If the game goes long enough, he will eventually come out and play, and he WILL win barring a wildly unfavorable board state. That all being said, I did like the fact that Emrakul is ultimate inevitability -- but it's possible that Ulamog or Newlamog may be more worth considering since they're much easier to cast...by a lot.
-) Matter Reshaper is as good as advertised. He was very solid for me all day -- rarely overperforming, but never underperforming. He always drew me a card, and sometimes he put a Cloudpost, a Top, or a Deed into play, which were all -great-. He's also really good at junking up the board, since he trades with an awful lot of things.
-) TKS was very good in the infect matchup, where the maindeck copy might have possibly saved me game 1. I think it wasn't necessary, because Kozilek, but it certainly didn't hurt...and my opponent thought that it had saved me, so maybe he saw a line that I wasn't aware of. I board the two sideboard copies in a bunch on the day but basically never saw them. As it stands I'm reasonably comfortable with a 2-1 split somehow, although in which direction I'm not decided yet.
-) Glimmerpost's lifegain is bananas. That is all.
-) Nissa was great for me on the day, once again. Nissa into Primeval Titan + flip is real strong. Some people have expressed that they're a little unhappy with her, and it makes me wonder if she's just particularly well suited to how I play the deck -- ramp heavy, with a focus on card advantage later. When you have 8 lands in play, having a personal howling mine is pretty damn good...especially when you have five virtual copies of her.
-) Speaking of which, Green Sun's Zenith is the best card in this deck, and whoever (Fatal?) persuaded me to run the 4th copy was 100% correct.
-) While we're thanking people, Skeletal Scrying earned its slot today in a big way. It didn't come up super often....I think I used it three or four times on the day. Once it just cycled for 1 at EoT because I had leftover mana and was vs Infect; once it drew me 3 (so basically Painful Truths); and once it drew me SIX cards, which was insane. I don't think that I would ever want to run more than one copy, but that one copy was definitely great.
-) Read the Bones got boarded out a -lot-. I don't know if that's because I didn't have firm sideboarding plans in place and it was an easy board-out in a lot of the matchups I had, or if it's indicating something deeper. I definitely felt like the deck wanted a little bit more card flow than it currently has, as I felt like I was running short on gas just every so slightly -- which probably means it needs more Matter Reshapers, Solemns, or some other draw spell. Maybe another Top? I'm not sure.
-) Maindeck Deluges were savage. I think that having the ability to maindeck two Deluges and not really suffer for it is one of the strengths of this version, for sure. Deed still pulled its weight, as well -- but the Deluges definitely impressed.
-) The manabase was reasonably good. I only had two hands on the day that I had to mull because they didn't have a colored source, which is an acceptable ratio to me. Beyond that, I always had a good mix of green, black, and colorless, although I do think that it's possible that it could be improved somewhat. I know the 5th fetch cost me a game vs Reanimator, but that doesn't make the 5th fetch incorrect in the abstract. If I try to put Solemns in, I'll probably move the 5th fetch to a 7th basic, though...and Solemns (possibly a 3rd Top, as well) would let me keep some of the heavy cloudpost hands and be okay.
-) The sideboard felt like I was overboarded for some matchups, but I think that a lot of that is just I happened to see matchups that had a lot of splash hate. Infect is probably the biggest example of this, where I had to figure out how to board in like 10 cards. I mean, it got there and felt pretty good while so doing -- but I don't generally like boarding in more than 4-5 cards per match barring something like Storm or etc. Miracles is technically an exception, too. Not sure if that means my board is poorly constructed or if it was just weird matchups.
-) Warden suggested cutting all of the midrange green creatures for more Eldrazi things, which is a possible direction to look into. My chief hesitation stems from the two facts that A: Green Sun is the best card in the deck, and B: having the lifegain creatures is kind of important when you're on a deck that wants as much time as this one. It's possible that the Glimmers are enough lifegain to lean on, though...they really add up. I kind of wanted a Twins at some point to be able to bounce Glimmerposts, but realistically that's not even close to worth the splash...it's just a cute idea, not a good one.
---------------
Closing Thoughts:
There is an absolute monster of a deck here. This first version isn't it, but I saw definite signs of it. At the end of the day, even being in contention at all for top 8 with the trial run of this deck is a very strong sign. Kozilek's payoff is just that massive, and his inevitable ascension reminds me an awful lot of Scapewishs's 1-card-combo nature. Definitely going to continue focusing on and tuning this version for another month or two at least before re-evaluating. Some of the game states and lines of play I got to execute today were absolutely ludicrous.
No, unfortunately I did not. I got "lucky" with my MU's (ended 2-3):Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Round 1, 0-2: ANT, piloted by our very own Jamie. I got lucky game 2 by going T1 Deathrite, T2 Surgical Extraction on his Preordain (was the only thing he'd cast), Therapy on Infernal Tutor & Chain of Vapor, drop Gaddock Teeg but then failed to get a kill and was stuck with 3 GSZ in my hand... Oh well.
Round 2, 1-2: Sneak & Show. I started G1 Forest into Explorer, he went "Well... Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, S&T, Emrakul". Yeah. G2 I won b/c he screwed himself over with a Bloodmoon and game 3 looked kinda like game 1. He dropped a T2 Griselbrand after which I Surgical Extracted his S&T, he answered by activating Griselbrand. I responded to that with PtE on Griselbrand. He activated again, dropping to 4 and unfortunately found a Force. Soon thereafter Griselbrand got there.
Round 3, 2-0: Homebrewn Pox piloted by the village idiot. He never stood a chance.
Round 4, 2-0: Goblins. Old list, piloted by a very nice guy. Had to read almost every card I played. After he gasped at GSZ I said "Yup, that's what Magic cards do nowadays".
Round 5, 1-2: Sneak & Show. I stole G1 by casting 5 Cabal Therapy in 4 turns or so. G2 and 3 didn't go that well.
Of the 24 people there, there were 3 S&S pilots (where there had been none for multiple months) and 2 ANT pilots. I ran into 3 of them... Everything else was Delver/Blade/Shardless (probably 10 to 12) or non-blue, so all sorts of stuff I'd be happy to see. Oh, and there was someone on Infect. Sometimes that just happens. Better luck next time.
Also got to play some games vs. MUD. I managed to break through T1 CotV, T2 Trinisphere, T3 Tax Golem twice, courtesy of Pernicious Deed. Man, is that card good when your opponent dumps artifacts on the board like there's no tomorrow. Also answered a Platinum Empyrion (the big, fat walking Platinum Angel) with a PtE, so that was nice. Ugin is a bitch, though. Ended up 3-2 in games (without sideboarding).
About the Nic Fit pilot who won: I don't know his MUs during the first 5 rounds, but in the top 8 he beat Maverick, UR Delver and Grixis Delver. All things you're pretty happy to see. His list was a removal heavy Abzan list with SFM and Batterskull (from what I've seen).
Very decent result. Baneslayer Angel seems like a very good card. Arianrhod also likes it very much. Because it is a non-green creature you'd probably want two copies of her iot to find her consistently enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Eldrazi stompy whatever it's called kinda fears me (as playing NicFit). Basically any deck that gets bigger hoses NicFit, we all know that. Being able to shoot Path to Exile on Eldrazi/MUD, etc is simply the reason to play Junk for me. This gives us a reasonable match-up against those decks. I can't stress it enough that 4 copies is the way to go in environments like this. Currently i am looking to add a single Vindicate into the mix just to have that catch-all Ugin or whatever the heck we could be facing. As for Ugin/Karn shenanigans i think that Gaddock Teeg is the appropriate counter measure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
More Matter Reshaper would be OK, not really sure how you feel about Obstinate Baloth. Judging how you feel about Read the Bones i'd probably cut them both and add the 3rd Sensei's Divining Top and another Skeletal Scrying or Matter Reshaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
And only 2 Abrupt Decay MD? Did it feel as enough? Did those Disfigures and Warping Wail's pull their weight?
As for Nissa, i can't understand why people do not like her. She is a GSZ'able, mana-ramping, 4/4, card drawing planeswalker with a game winning ultimate. In any way she fits NicFit, (get it?). But like any planeswalker, you need to be able to protect her. She does help herself in that regard with a 4/4, but dies to Abrupt Decay. But so does Liliana...
Sometimes you just have a couple of shitty match-up's. It happens. On such a day i always say you need a bit of winners luck. Sometimes you play tight, no error's and make the best possible lines of play, but can still not be enough to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Why did you cast Surgical on preordain? Wasn't it better to wait for something to be in the yard, like an Infernal Tutor if he tries to combo on a PiF loop? But then again, he is a solid player.
Lol'd at the village idiot.
The other NicFit player. I didn't see any SFM in his list, but he did have Batterskull. I suppose for 5 mana i'd rather have Baneslayer Angel.
I have been thinking about this for a while now. NicFit is pretty much my go-to deck to play and i have a lot of fun doing so. But i keep wondering if NicFit would be THE deck to be playing to win some more. While trying to avoid playing blue i have toyed around with decks that run some combination of Wasteland, Tarmogoyf/Thalia and either GSZ or Aether Vial. So i played Aggro Loam, Jund, Rock, Maverick and Thalia Goblin's with Port.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
All of those decks had their merit's, but one thing that defines NicFit from those decks was the way you develop your game. Ofcourse this makes sense as NicFit is a non-Wasteland ramp deck with a fairly large creature toolbox.
What NicFit has, which actually makes it a good deck, is the very stable transition it has into the Mid-/Lategame. Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy combo is very devastating to a lot of decks and most cannot handle creatures that can't be bolted nor decay'd. Next to this, the very stable manabase you can develop makes the best use of Pernicious Deed. Which is another card that is devastating to a lot of decks in the format.
Now, what i found when playing the other decks was that those decks lean very heavy on their early turn manabase development. And often i found that winning or losing a match was brought back to how you where able to stabilize your mana (or failing to do so).
So all in all NicFit has a very stable manabase that most of the other decks have much less. Next to this, NicFit has the ability to support Sensei's Divining Top with it's mana and has access to various other card advantage engines. This gets to the point where NicFit will gain a critical mass needed to overcome (non-combo) blue based decks.
On the other hand NicFit is rather soft to combo. This has mainly to do with the lack of disruption on the manabase (i.e. Thalia/Wasteland) or the absence of a fast clock (i.e. Tarmogoyf) coupled with disruption. We do have a solid clock, but it lands later. We have some solid disruption, but we also use a lot of space for a toolbox and mana-ramping. We naturally do not interact on the stack and we need some time to establish. But when we have a small window of opportunity we are often are able to seize that moment.
Nice results. I may try a Skeletal Scrying, I used to play it in the GB Helldozer deck from years ago. I said Toxic maindeck was the nuts ;)
Le Rhino AbbandanzaQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
16th Place - Mythic Games' Feb Event
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
== SB
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Toxic Deluge
**Did not see any Miracles while scouting. I saw half the room with combo, but some of that was land.dec -- so I'd just accept a loss against that thing. I looked forward to beating the delver pilots and having a chance against more traditional combo.
== Matchups
52 players. 6 rounds.
R1: Colton with Eldrazi Midrange - L
G1. I haven't won a dice roll in forever. Low and behold, I'm on the play. I lead off with a blind therapy naming brainstorm. I see a hand of eldrazi and I kid you not, I had to write down what all of them did. My opponent didn't mind since they are mainly from the new sets. Blight Herder, Wasteland Strangler (I vaguely knew him but it was in Japanese so he explained it all to me), Thought Knot Seer, and Reality Smasher. Flash forward a few turns...I don't see any business and he's suddenly dropped Reality Smasher. I can't remove that thing.
G2. Opening 7 is all lands and 1 truth. I ship that for a hand of 6 that was all business no lands. I mull to 5 and lose quickly to a Reality Smasher.
R2. Adam Q on URx Delver (Eli Kassis variant with Stormchaser Mage) - W
G1. I win after removing a lot of his threats.
G2. I'm trying to stabilize in a loooong long game. I have him at 8 and I'm at 4. He uses some draw spell to find a lethal burn spell. He had nothing otherwise.
G3. We play fast. I blow through 2 therapies + 9 removal spells. A late scooze nets some life while beating him to death. Scooze lives through Submerge and the delve-Submerge spell. He can't postpone the inevitable.
R3. Michael with Shardless - L
*He gets the nuts both games. Like perfect cards to bail him out at all times.
G1. I'm on 7 cards and he mulls to 5. I should have this in the bag, right? My turn 1 DRS ---> meets Force pitching something. Now I'm really ahead, right? Wrong. Then he lands goyf into Liliana into Jace to my land, land, Deed. I draw nothing while he pulls shardless into visions twice. I attempt to stabilize by dropping multiple guys but he has removal + Liliana edicts + Jace bounces.
G2. I keep a decent hand. He goes thoughtseize --> steals a Zenith or something key to help me progress. Double wasteland eats 2 duals. I'm perpetually behind in a hand that has high manacost cards. Liliana eventually lands and it's discard time. I misplay (illegal cast of Sigarda). He plays his turn. Then realizes it when I'm about to have my turn again. Calling a judge gets us both a warning but I scoop to a board of 3 goyf, 1 strix, Liliana vs my illegal Sigarda. Deck felt like shit at this point.
R4. Steve with Grixis Control - W
*I have no idea what Steve is on. He's got some X/X thing both games from the new set but is never really a threat. I blow him out both games. We played a hypothetical/funsies 3rd game where I still run through him. Vindicate was superb here.
R5. Jason with BUG Delver (not shardless) - W
*Two well-played games. G1 I take a hit from a 3/4 goyf before I decay the thing. Then he drops double goyf. Maelstrom Pulse to the rescue and he's lost all momentum from there.
G2 was a longer match. I played 2 basics the whole game. An early choke off DRS as the 3rd mana hurt him a lot. Then I land carpet --- which gave me +3 or +4 mana per turn. Absurd. Carpet leads into a turn 5 (or 6?) Sigarda. Sigarda starts the trail to victory. A later GSZ was burned for Scooze to hold off his DRS. My own DRS was huge this game.
R6. Joe with Jund Nic Fit (ScapeWish...no Pfires) - W
Winner likely makes T16.
G1. I hold my own for a while as we dance around trading similar spells. I hang in there to see what exactly is in his list. He eventually lands scapeshift for 38. Ouch
G2. I'm feeling "this is the end" but decide to give it my best. I bring in surgicals and slaughters to rid him of business. An additional Teeg was brought in to prevent a random Scapeshift GG. In short, surgical blows up his veterans (not sure why he kept it in). I get all the information I need. Sigarda and friends beats him down. I also benefitted from Joe misplaying a few times.
G3. This is it. I alter the SB plans again. I bring in my 2x thoughtseize this time while shaving some deeds and decays. His list doesn't really have threats...it all really just builds into Shift. In short, a quick Baneslayer starts the race against his Baloth. Eventually I land Teeg #1. Several turns go by racing Joe as he continues to build a nice manabase. Teeg gets decayed. Luckily, no scapeshift. I eventually land a Rhino and Nissa while I whack away with Baneslayer. I'm racing his baloth and tusk. Things trade on the ground and it's just baneslayer. A well-timed GSZ has me debating over wanting Teeg #2 or Sigarda. I choose Teeg for insurance against Shift and bet correctly (later seeing the 'Shift in his hand). We go to turns and he gives me the gentleman's scoop....understanding I beat him if we had another turn to play. Sportsmanship.
@Arianrhod thank you very much for detailed report :-).
Looks like 2 Toxic Deluge makes a lot of work there, Did you think to add one more Pernicious Deed to full playset ? It works well vs Infect and man-lands which easily dodge Toxic Deluge.
I'm glad that you found power in GSZ - I'm also convinced that it's best card in deck.
I wanted also ask how many times those cards:
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
was in your hand and you had 6 mana available, since I'm almost sure Titans are just pure value here, they can race, they find solutions and bring the win, and not playing 4 of them is mistake :-). If you really scare about aggro you can easily put lifegainers on SB.
I also think that this deck require 3 Sensei's Divining Top, smoothing draws are very important, with so many shuffle effects is like tutoring needed card.
I will take a closer on Skeletal Scrying, I used this card before in early Nic Fit versions and was always very good, not sure how they will work with Eldrazi triggers on the other side. Maybe I will try 1-of vs some heavy control matchups which are always very good ^^.
I also have questions about manabase:
How many times you searched with Vet for:
1 Wastes
I'm almost sure - non. I think 4th Cloudpost is really much better even as a tapland here. It can give you whole turn earlier a bomb.
1 Llanowar Wastes - this one was interesting, I understand the need of C to cast small eldrazi's, but I'm still not convinced to them, Reshaper gives random card, when it dies, which I can't accept in my gameplan - it can't be planned so good when it would be etb - it would be much easier, but when it dies - no sorry, I just don't like it, specially vs deck with swords to plowshares. On the other hand I found that 1 Thought-Knot Seer is much better then I thought but still under radar since exiling is permanent, so even if he dies same turn you still get some CQ decrease in opponent hand so a benefit from 1-to-1.
So to sum all up:
Try 4 Titans, I will try Scrying and Toxic Deluge :-), but still need to took something out, actually I really like Karn Librated in my build, it's really nice catch all answer.
Keep going :-), if everything goes right I will have report from my tournament this week.
It's possible that I'm trapped in thinking of Primeval Titan as an enabler for something bigger and dumber, and am not thinking of him sufficiently as a Thragtusk in and of himself for 1 more mana, since I'm not used to having Glimmerposts to fetch up with him. I can test running more Primevals, but I'm pretty sure that I'm going to regret it. 4x Primeval Titan territory is pretty exclusively 12post, and if I want to play that deck, I would just build it. I could see a second copy over the Thragtusk, at least, however. Unfortunately I only own one at the moment, but I can look into that if it tests well, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Wastes was fine, and there were a couple of times where I specifically grabbed it off of Vet or Sakura because I didn't have another colorless source -- especially in the matchups where the Wails were in. Those matchups require a high density of colorless sources because if you're boarding in Wail, it's because you ideally want to use it on the first couple turns of the game (combo, in particular). Not having the ability to grab a colorless source with one of your land fetchers is pretty poor for that. And, again, you can easily make the justification that I could just run Duress instead, or more Disfigures, or Carpet of Flowers -- but there is no other card that provides the flexibility that Wail does. I'm willing to make sacrifices to accommodate it...even more so after using it in a tournament setting, where it was definitely a very strong sideboard component and assisted me in winning several games.
I did think about putting Deed to a 4-of, but I decided that there was value in having an extra copy of the immediately / on-demand sweeper. Cloudpost makes Deed a little faster, sometimes, but it's pretty hard to argue with what happened my Elves opponent in g1, for example. Deed simply can never do that, and I think that, while it's obviously a powerful card and a cornerstone of the archetype, Deed should probably never be more than a 3-of. There's also the fact that Pithing Needle, Stifle, and Revoker are fairly common annoyances for Deed, and diversifying a little more is prudent.
3rd Top is something I agree on. As noted, the Read the Bones were disappointing -- not because they were bad per se, but because they got boarded out so often. I'm going to go back to something a little more traditional when it comes to card advantage for this deck, and just run a bunch of X-for-1s and card quality / card flow tools. 3rd Top definitely goes back in under that paradigm -- I do think that 2 if the magic number if you're playing with 2-3 Truths or Bones, though. BUG lists with Jaces and Brainstorms can even go down to 1 copy and be fine, imo.
I never had a problem with Scrying running into Eldrazi shuffle triggers. I didn't play vs any Liliana of the Veil decks, and I can't think of any other time where Emmy's shuffle trigger would've come up. Scrying was usually unexciting in the first 2-4 turns of the game, but then it quickly became back-breakingly powerful from there out. It's worth noting that Scrying was actually fine vs Infect because it allowed me to hold up spot removal while then taking advantage of his passing the turn by cycling it at EoT. I don't think that this was an isolated incident -- I imagine there will be many board states, in particular those involving Deed, where we hold up Deed, choose not to crack it, and then draw a bunch of cards instead. I'll also note that while Scrying was pretty strong for me, I do think that it would be stronger in something like Rhinos, BUG, or PFire -- anything a bit more traditional with more fetchlands, in particular, for much the same reason as heavily Delve decks run 10-12 fetches. I sometimes ran into situations where I didn't have a ton of cards in my graveyard, so I don't think that Scrying is at its most powerful in Eldrazi builds, just due to the wonky nature of the mana base.
Matter Reshaper is to me as Solemn Sim is to you, I think -- yours is guaranteed to grab a basic on entry, which is cool, while mine has a slightly better beatdown with one extra power and is a mana cheaper. Both draw a card, but Reshaper is sometimes also randomly a Black Lotus or an Explore. I agree that on the face of the card, it's a little unexciting and doesn't look that reasonable. Likewise, I can assure that it feels much better in practice than it looks in theory. I'm actually debating if I want to try to run Solemn in addition to Reshaper -- but I think that Reshaper is a little better, personally. I'm fine agreeing to disagree, but I do think that you should proxy a couple up and take them for a spin at some point. If you try them and don't like them in practice as well as in theory, then that's fine.
Llanowar Wastes itself was actually fairly good for me on the day, but almost never was necessary -- it was never a hindrance, but it was rarely a boon either. The biggest situation involving it that I can think of came vs Goblins after I got double Wasted, and it allowed me to still have all of my colors. I don't frankly know the longterm future of the card in the deck...it could stay, or it could be replaced. Either way.
Disfigure and Warping Wail were both great out of the board. I actually didn't feel like the third Decay was really necessary, so that's probably going to get cut. The maindeck Decays felt awkward -- running any spot removal in this deck has actually felt kind of awkward, but I can't actually bring myself to consider it wrong yet. In fact, I tried the deck without maindeck spot removal and it felt worse. Maybe I just haven't found the correct mix of things yet...or maybe I need Shriekmaws or something similar. I usually like to be around 8-10 "removal spells" maindeck, but I'm also pretty loose with my definition of removal spells -- I count things like Deed, Garruk Relentless, Baleful Strix, and other things that I realistically shouldn't actually count, because I like my removal spells to be modal. This is one reason I like Abzan Charm more than most: if you run into a creatureless matchup, at least it's still relevant.
Someone else asked me why I wasn't running any planeswalkers -- Karn and Ugin, specifically -- to which my problem was thus: those cards are absolute beatings if they arrive on time, in general; ahead or at parity, for Karn; and at a point at which the impact they have on the gamestate is sufficient to justify running them. Ugin is an 8-mana Deed+activate that also hits planeswalkers, which is kind of cool. The problem is that it costs 8. Considering that you need to play through Daze, Stifle, Wasteland, discard, removal, and other elements of a game of Magic, you'll be lucky to draw + cast him by turn 8 or 9, even with our amount of ramp. At this point I don't feel that either of these cards are strong enough to justify running for their mana costs. The only planeswalker I am currently considering is Garruk, Primal Hunter -- he adds to and clogs board states, and he has the potential to draw a bunch of cards. Triple green slightly worries me, but at the same time, the deck plays a bunch of basic Forests which it aggressively searches out, so it might be fine.
Other topics:
lol@village idiot. We all have one.
Eldrazi Stompy is basically just a new MUD deck. It is, accordingly, an awful matchup and nobody should feel bad losing to it. Path to Exile is not a good answer to that deck, as it aggressively looks to Chalice@1 vs us regardless of whether we run Path or not. It might give a couple % by being in the deck, just if they don't have a Chalice in their hand, but if you want to gun for that deck, play Dismember instead. Path is certainly good vs a great many things...but justifying its inclusion based off of a Chalice deck is probably a poor idea.
Nic Fit of all varieties tends to beat blue decks on the whole because of our threat density. Because of our ramp core, we get to play with a lot of cards that the legacy metagame, as a mainstream entity, is not prepared to deal with. You get to put your opponent in impossible situations, asking nightmare questions. Many blue decks are required to have multiple Force of Wills in their opening hands to stop our bombs from taking over games, and that's not even getting into the possibility of Therapy hands tearing them apart and leaving them at the necessary of our fearsome standard cards.
That being said: always remember that if you want to join the family and become a Nic Fit player, that the deck is very, very challenging. You need to have impeccable metagame knowledge, be able to read people effectively, know how to play every deck in the format, be able to plan up to four turns ahead through everchanging, protean board and hand states, and have the fortitude to accept that you are making a conscious decision to opt out of playing with Brainstorm and Force of Will, which means that you will simultaneously lose to your own deck shitting itself at least twice per tournament, and that some people (looking at you, Belcher players), just want to watch the world burn.
It looks like sunshine, rainbows, and EDH in here, but there's actually a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Don't sign up if you aren't ready to be bloodied for a couple months at least.
I don't like to sit around and wait vs. Storm until they give me something I'd want to target. By that time it's quite possibly too. Hence I took what I thought to be was my best shot. Getting rid of that Preordain allowed me to look at his hand before casting Cabal Therapy, making sure I'd hit something relevant. Normally vs. ANT I name Infernal Tutor on a blind Therapy. I had no way of knowing I would've hit with that on this occassion. Obviously hitting Infernal and Surgicalling it would have been the best line to take, but that's something you simply can't know in advance. On the other hand, missing and only taking and Surgicalling Chain of Vapor probably would have won me the game as well as he'd have no outs to my Teeg. But again, hindsight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
On the other Nic Fit player: I also saw him run a Nissa. I wasn't too impressed with his plays though. I saw him cast several cards straight into Dazes during the finals. First a PtE in his opponents endstep, then a Siege Rhino. Patience is a virtue.
Funniest thing during the tournament: During G1 vs. the village idiot I had a DRS out (I dropped it T1 after which he goes Swamp, Cabal Therapy targeting himself, discard 2 Bloodghast. I kid you not. Obviously the following turn my DRS had one for lunch). At some point he drops a Lilliana and -2's it. In response I fetch a Dryad Arbor and sac it to Lilliana. The following turn the DRS turns sideways and kills Lilliana. Achievement unlocked! Who knew DRS had a 4th ability that says "T: Destroy target Planeswalker".
Also, at some point I attacked with a Veteran Explorer and for some reason he blocked with the Dark Confidant he'd just cast. The people sitting left and right of me looked at me with disbelief and a look in their eyes that said "So that just happened". I just smiled, got my lands and powered out a Rhino.
Meh, the main reason there's a lot of blood, sweat and tears is b/c Siege Rhino causes people to bleed, sweat and break out in tears. There's nothing more fun than watching Legacy decks fold to a couple of overcosted Standard and EDH cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
In all seriousness: It's a hard deck to pilot properly. It gives you so much to work with, but it can be oh so difficult to pick up on what you need at any given point in time. Be it sequencing, delaying plays to outplay your opponents answers, when and what to fetch or what to get with Diabolic Intent/GSZ. Whatever you face, your deck is likely to have an answer for it. It may just not be as clear as you'd want it to be. Nic Fit requires you to be a creative problem solver more than anything else. That starts with identifying if something actually is a problem or not, after which you can start thinking about what options your deck can create to solve it.
We are FAMILY! COME ON, EVERYBODY, LETS SING!
lol I kid.
Glad to see everyone had a more eventful weekend than me. Congratz on your placings gentlemen, violentmen and ladies.
The postfit looks like its coming along very well, have you seen the other list in developmental decks? Quite similar.
I told him at Mythic and I'll share with folks here as well: I think Arianrhod is really onto something. It's not exactly Nic Fit. It's not exactly 12 post. But it somehow comes together, which in my books is an accomplishment. Prior to the weekend, I felt Arianrhod didn't need Emrakul. Some green should also be traded for midrange Eldrazi (especially seeing Colton's deck just ruin me). Bobmans is correct in Eldrazi midrange doing some scary things --- being bigger than us and hard to deal with.
Ideas:
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 fetch
6 basics
2 Bayou
1 Eye of Ugin/Karakas/Arbor
/23
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Ooze/Witness/Empath/Nissa
2 Courser/Oracle ---> dedicated hard ramp
2 Primeval Titan
5 *Finishers* Eldrazi/Ugin/Karn/Wormcoil
/15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Top
3 Deed
3 Decay
/17
5 Flex (Diabolic Intent, Scrying, Crop, Pulse, Toxic, more creatures, more discard)
===
Kev is a significantly better deck builder than I am, so maybe this stirs the pot for him. I believe I have the concept of what the mana should be. Vesuva should be in this list. It is post #9 and 10 or [insert relevant land on the table]. I'd try this 4:4:2 split.
I think a "flaw" of your initial design was holding onto an unnecessary piece of Nic Fit: Green Lifegaining Midgame things. Baloth and to some degree Thragtusk aren't needed when you can Glimmerpost/Vesuva-Gimmerpost for 5+ life on the spot. In place of them, run colorless finishers. The Eldrazi are stupid. All of them provide a big body + interesting abilities. I said you wouldn't need Emrakul and still stand by it. It costs a ton and is really a win-more. On the other hand, Koz 2.0 + Thought Knot Seer + Reality Smasher are REAL. I'd also consider Ulamog 2.0 -- but he may be in the "he's so expensive and doesn't do more than Ugin/Karn for the mana" territory.
In terms of what each color does, I'm keeping it simple. Black is discard + half of the cost for removal. Green is the other half of playing removal spells + ramp. Let's not forget PrimeTime is a thing. He gives you lands (and loads of life with vesuva/gimm), thins the deck, and is a 6/6 trampling wtf. A lot of the time all you need to do is be a big thing with trample (see Rhino). If Truths/Read the Bones suck, then don't run them. In their place you should embrace Top + tutoring effects. Intent makes sense in Nic Fit. Empath makes sense to find your upper end. Just typing this list makes me want to go out and acquires all those cards lol. Nic Fit has always been a ^wtf pile of cards more suitable for EDH. Don't disrespect Karn the PW or Ugin. I think they could certainly fit into the 75.
I was wondering which of the '5' legendary eldrazi would be best for this deck?
Let's rebuild the deck a little. Here's some thoughts re@Warden:
First of all, I think this deck needs 24 lands -- because Eye of Ugin isn't ACTUALLY a land, it's a spell. With Matter Reshapers and Thought-Knots its kind of half of a land, but I still don't want to get myself into the trap that it actually counts as a mana source -- it's a spell that you happen to tutor with Primeval Titan.
Assuming 6 basics is a 4-1-1 split, that gives you 10 green sources and 7 black sources, which seems really low. This is the reason I chose to run only 3 Cloudposts and 0 Vesuvas. Now, a sample 12post list includes 11 blue sources and 9 green sources, so maybe that isn't ACTUALLY that bad. I think that ideally I would want something like 12-13 green and 9-10 black, and then fill up the rest of the slots with posts.
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
This looks about perfect, but is 25 lands including Eye of Ugin. The 5th Forest is likely cuttable, but the higher than average basic count is likely important both because the deck wants to set off a lot of Vets, Sakuras, Nissa, and possibly Solemns -- and because people WILL bring in Blood Moon vs this deck, whether they really should or not.
Let's run with the assumption that this is our manabase and see where that takes us.
We probably want the following ramp core:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Primeval Titan
9 cards here. I don't include Nissa here as she's not really ramp -- she's card advantage and sometimes a finisher. 34/61 slots accounted for.
I think that this deck wants 2 Eldrazi finishers: Kozilek 2.0 rocked my world, so he's guaranteed a slot. The other Eldrazi slot is almost certainly either Ulamog or Newlamog, and I don't know which one I want more. I PROBABLY bias towards Ulamog because the shuffle trigger is not flavor text, and annihilator is a powerful ability.
Let's try this:
1 Kozilek 2.0
1 Ulamog 1.0
1 Ugin planeswalker
1 Karn planeswalker
I'm willing to experiment with the planeswalkers with the 4th cloudpost in the deck AND the two Solemns. Since we're going back to the drawing board a little here, it's also fair to actually test these cards and see how they run.
38/61.
Let's put in the rest of the "core" cards:
4 Therapy
4 GSZ
3 Top
3 Deed
52/61.
These cards impressed me and will continue to have a slot:
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Skeletal Scrying
55/61.
I think I want the remaining 6 cards to all be card quality/card flow.
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Matter Reshaper
Pulling it together:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek 2.0
1 Ulamog 1.0
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Ugin planeswalker
1 Karn planeswalker
4 Therapy
4 GSZ
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Top
3 Deed
Looking this over, Garruk PH probably isn't going to pull his weight without the green lifegain creatures to go off of...although some of the smaller Eldrazi would also help him (things like TKS and Reality Smasher). Let's cut him for the maindeck Thought-Knot I had on Saturday, since I think the card is actually quite good and is a reasonable way to hedge maindeck against random garbage. I think that I'm going to cut the 5th flex Forest for a second TKS maindeck.
-1 Garruk PH
-1 Forest
+2 Thought-Knot
The lack of maindeck Decays is probably fine, they were awkward for me anyway, and by adding more ramp we've enabled Ugin and Karn, which are both heavy removal / control planeswalkers. Additionally, Ulamog over Emrakul is another removal option.
For sideboard:
Two of the Thought-Knots maindeck means that the third should probably be in the sideboard for additional combo disruption + clock. Two Thoughtseizes are pretty industry standard, as well.
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thought-Knot Seer
We want a smattering of removal. Let's say something like this:
2 Disfigure
2 Warping Wail
2 Abrupt Decay
Note that Wail will also come in vs Death and Taxes and combo decks -- potentially Miracles and some other decks as well.
Grips have been very good for me recently, so I definitely want a pair of those. Strong vs Miracles, Painter, MUD, Infect, and other random garbage.
2 Krosan Grip
We need some heavy storm hate, since that's probably the combo deck that we're worst against. I like this package:
2 Trinisphere
1 Nether Void
This brings us to 14/15 cards, which is awkward because I still want room for 3 Surgical Extractions. We can fit one right now, but we need to shave two things to fit the rest in. Realistically, the removal probably get shaved down a little, because 6 spot removal is a lot, even if they're varied to do different things in different matchups.
At the same time, the only removal spell that's really trimmable, I think, is one of the Decays. Decay has frankly impressed me less and less as time has progressed -- it's just too slow. Grip is better for the niche naturalize role, and Disfigure has actually been better as a removal spell -- sure, they can Force of Will it, but generally if you're Disfiguring their Delver and they're Forcing it, you're happy with that exchange because that's a FoW they don't have for a sweeper or bomb later. So many of the most annoying things are 1 mana, and having the 1 mana removal option for them is frequently better than sinking your entire second turn into dealing with a problem.
So that buys us the slot for the 2nd Surgical. I don't think that I have anything else I want to cut at the moment for the 3rd Surgical. It's something I probably want before I play the deck again at next month's Mythic, but I want to get some reps in with the deck first and see if I can discern what's underperforming.
The list:
Eldrazi Fit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
//sb
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
2 Warping Wail
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere
1 Nether Void
2 Surgical Extraction
Here's the final rebuilt list, all cleaned up and nice. I'll get to testing that and see if I can form some opinions on the changes in the next couple of days.
Void Winnower wins "hand down".Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Too bad he is not legendary !
I firmly believe this guy is tailor made for any deck that wants to go "big" but not "so big" (read emrakuless):
- He guarantees an/many attack phase without almost no blocker.
- He prevents many legacy spells from being cast
- He is a whole turn faster than any other "badass" Eldrazi
- But he fears STP and he has no ETB/cast trigger
If he locked out odd spells, I would be on board. Unfortunately it doesn't hit StP, Brainstorm, Force of Will, Liliana of the Veil, and a lot of other things that are priorities to stop. Obviously it does stop a lot of things, but the things it stops tend on average to be things that we aren't afraid of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
That was my exact thinking as well. He doesn't stop the most popular casting costs (and problems for us): bstorm, ponder, stp, path, Liliana, Council's, opposing Toxics (relevant for Eldrazi especially).Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
In terms of your updated Eldrazi-Fit, we currently disagree here:
*Manabase
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
2 Solemn Simulacrum
A disagreement is healthy and productive (as divergent thinking leads to innovation). Seems you're a huge fan of Matter Reshaper. I'm not sure if he's needed. Philosophically I guess I am looking to go: dork --> hard ramp as a springboard --> big dumb things. I back this up with more removal like Decay and the idea of running Tutors. You're taking a more (for lack of a better word) gradual setup: dork --> utility 3drop --> utiltiy 4drop --> finisher. Not sure one is better than the other, but these are 2 different routes to go from a "beginning" we agree upon to a "ending" we agree upon.
The other approach is to treat Eldrazi fit more like combo. I mentioned the idea of more discard. Perhaps we could look at a different approach: use maindeck Probe/TS/Therapy to see (and shred) their hands --> drop big finishers. Less reliance on reactive removal. More reliance on proactive discard and knowledge of their hands.
Debatable slots from my experience:
Manabase:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
I was running similar manabase with some changes:
- Wastes -> Karakas (I wanted to have answer vs S&T decks running fatties) now I can understand you want to have access to C mana from Vet/etc to cast some new Eldrazi/Wail
- 1 Forest -> 5th Fetchland this is very important since you want access to black to cast early Therapy or removal
- Llanowar Wastes -> Actually I'm running Savannah for Gaddock Teeg in SB.
So overlay it's very similar and running very smooth, along with:
4 Vet
2 Solemn
1 Wooded Elves - I much more prefer Elves as ramp, and body for therapy, works really good.
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder -> Wood Elves
I was running Sakura on early stage, but I found I always want Vet instead of Sakura, since it's only a overcosted (mostly from GSZ since it's 1-of) Rampant Growth, Vet gives you always better results, Elves are use as ramp factor, which puts additional untapped land, which can be dual land.
Matter Reshaper vs Solemn is not easy choose, since Solemn gives land on etb - so always next turn you have access to 6 mana with land drop, which is critical for build I'm running.
I technical point of view Solemn can do 1 for 3 (land, removal/block, cantrip when dies) when Matter Reshaper can do max 1 for 2 (removal/block, cantrip/3 cmc pernament which is uncounterable, which isn't bad). It cost 1 less which would fit very well to proactive mana curve, in goldfishing scenerio you cast therapy turn 1, then vet turn 2, so have access to 3 mana, just to cast Reshaper.
Let's count what is probability in proposed build to put something in 2/3 chance to put card in battlefield. Really not bad, question would you cast therapy from it to just put a one more land to play ? If yes here is land chance - 13/30 (including Eye of Ugin which can't add mana) so you can't really saying that it will ramp you in statistical point of view, it's card advantage with 2/3 probability it boost your board presence.
Walkers:
I advice to take a lot again at Karn Librated before spliting with Ugin. Ugin is mostly useless vs MUD/Eldrazi which getting popularity now, It also can't exile cheated overcosted permanents like Grizzly, MUD targets or for example - lands in mirror. Note that Karn also works as better Liliana controling opponent hand, maybe it's ultimate isn't as good as Ugin, but It growth much faster then Ugin, Karn can answer needle and revoker blocking our Deed which is quite important factor, you cant be locked out. Running 5 sweepers in proposed list (3 Deed, 2 Toxic Deluge), I'm not sure we need more sweepers effects.
2 Thought-Knot Seer - I like it !
Finishing Eldrazi:
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
I'm not a fan of this set, I understand Emrakul is overcosted, but it always end game that turn it comes, sometimes that one turn can change a lot. Those both eldrazi can be STP, sure with Kozilek it isn't easy, but it's possible, also both are legendary, which can be bounced (after first cast Kozilek doesn't give more gas), Emmy doesn't affected from this.
Actually I' using old Kozilek (Anihilator 4 + guarantee 4 cards) and Emmy (just end game rightaway with looping).
For sure I want 1 old Eldrazi as a shuffle effect vs decks like Imperial Recruiter which now is bye, even with their 8 moon effects.
Void Winnower is cute, but not working at all vs miracles which will be most popular decks you met, it also doesn't resolve any situations when you are defending. Vs combo it's just to slow as "hatebear". Interesting fact it stops EtI from Omnishow, and Ants kill, but doesn't change to much vs Wish + Wipe Away.
Other utility cards:
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter - It's nice walker, but I found that it doesn't give guarantee card advantage on drawing ability, getting removal in response is really disappointing. Note that restrictive cost GGG can be problematic without Vet trigger, on other side it's one of the best colored walkers vs controls. Hint it's ultimate isn't great vs miracles ^^.
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
Still not a big fan of those cards :-) Nissa, is just a worst Wood Elves, with conditional option to being decayable so so walker don't like cards which can't do things good as they suppose. Fierce Empath ->delayed Titan.
Last note Decay MD are huge against Tempo decks, read early delver. With enough permission, wastelands they can really mess our plan, with Decay MD can just kill early thread so they lose tempo to recast new thread. Actually all removal MD cost 3 and can be spell pierced it isn't good, this mean a lot of dmg taken from flipped delver, connect this with bolts from hand and you have game 1 lost.
Edit about SB:
I would more focused on decks actual playing:
DTB (ANT, Tempo decks)
Cheap decks like Burn, Elves and D&T which seeing a lot of play
Loam-based decks - it won't be easy matchup
Fast combo decks like Reanimator and S&T based
2 Thoughtseize - > Duress to update burn matchup and tempo strategies
1 Thought-Knot Seer - > is it really needed on SB ? aren't better would be some more specify card ?
2 Disfigure - > Warping Wail seems better here, but it depends on C mana - more testing is needed here
2 Warping Wail - > maybe bump up to 4 to update ANT, Elves and S&T.
1 Abrupt Decay - > Agree vs Tempo
2 Krosan Grip - > Omni only ? Not sure is it worth here, it doesn't help vs Sneak version. Please describe what's for other then Omni.
2 Trinisphere - > doesn't work vs fast combo decks, tempo ? I rather see Spheres of Resistance here - explain why Trini
1 Nether Void - > Omni and ?, for ANT it's too slow on other it can be very nice vs S&T if you can land it before them. - explain please
2 Surgical Extraction - > Reanimator, Loam decks and combo - agree
I don't see any answer vs Dark Depths combo (basically R/G lands vs which SB is really needed).
Using this SB, actually with (4 Deed, 3 Decay split in MD and Karakas):
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine - not needed in proposed list
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm - actually best answer vs Elves
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog - addtional SB with Rotations, so you have 6 ways to disrupt early reanimation, works also nice to shrink goyfs, shaman/snappy food, also very good vs R/G lands.
SB: 4 Crop Rotation - mana boost with tower and tutor for utility lands
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction - GY hate turn 0 is must have, works also nice vs brainstorm in response to our discard.
SB: 2 Duress - Burn, control, combo.. additional discard is always good.
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg - ANT and S&T hatebear under GSZ
SB: 2 Sadistic Sacrament - best card vs ANT, works also very nice vs S&T, very reliable on Vet trigger, I adding Crops to find Tower most time vs fast combo
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage - answer vs R/G Marit Lage, do your own ^^.
This SB cover:
- Elves
- R/G lands
- ANT
- S&T - (it's still bad matchup, Trini/Void is for sure much better vs S&T, but it's only 15 cards :-)
- Reanimator
- Loam based decks (look out for Aggro Loam which can keep chalice for 1 - all your gy hate cards are cmc=1, except Bojuka), important to keep removal for it decay/deed.
- Burn (chasm is handy here to gain time until you land titan, works as fog vs price of progress which will be nightmare without answer)
@WardenStrongly agree it's rather Board Control / Combo then midrange deck. I tested Gitraxian Probes and they wasn't bad turn 1-2, but in longer game it's just pay 2 life, cycle card so I abandon them.Quote:
The other approach is to treat Eldrazi fit more like combo. I mentioned the idea of more discard. Perhaps we could look at a different approach: use maindeck Probe/TS/Therapy to see (and shred) their hands --> drop big finishers. Less reliance on reactive removal. More reliance on proactive discard and knowledge of their hands.
Last question to everyone:
Is it still Nic Fit, or this hybrid require separate thread ? Question is also addressed to people not interested with this version and want to read about Core Nic fit deck and don't like to scroll :-)
Only want to remind that I created Nic feat. 8Post thread (Nic Fit & Eldrazi 12 Post hybrid) in New and Development in 08-02-2014 It can be found here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Nic-Feat-8Post
garruk relentless is definitely better than primal hunter in all my experiences.
Hunter has been very good for me, I've never tried relentless but I don't have a single reason to choose him instead of PH. Against control/slow decks he is so good, and GGG has not been that hard to achieve in my experience (maybe it's because I seem to run more fetches than you all?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
And split up the best thread on the source? No way dude, your 8ball NicFit is just as much a part of the NicFit family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Nic fit means family. Family means no one gets left behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Except Garruk Primal Hunter. I'm such a big Relentless fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I'm with @Fatal about the need for Decays. I can't see someone surviving an event unless they win the bracket lottery and avoid mainstream decks all day. Delver, SFM, Miracles, DnT all warrant the card.
@JunkFit:
I'm trying to determine how to improve my list. I think I would run 3:3 for decay/paths. Another Baneslayer is possible, but who knows what I cut. I'd be willing to increase card draw/filtering at the expense of some business spells. Not exactly sure what I'd run next month. I'm still fantasizing about 4C Nic Fit.
Maybe it would be best to title your posts so people can filter easier. Splitting up the thread seems unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Example post:
"Jund Fit
Blah blah blah...."
I like 4/2 Decay and Path, 3/3 is also fine. Decay is lovely, and you need it to break CB, Delver, Equipment, etc. Deed can't always be there. It's vulnerable to countermagic AND stifle, and is easily one to two turns slower.
Just 2-0'd Eldrazi Stompy with andrew tenjum playing it.
3 rhinos game 1 beat 1 knot, 1 smasher, 2 endless one
g2 he was stuck with eye and city. cabal therapy for triple lodestone ^_^
Ran it back against him
0-2 didnt see wastelands until this match
he had blistering perfect g1 and then 4 waste for my one bayou g2
Grixis deathlver
g1 deed for 2 flipped delver and drs followed up with rhino (feels good man) gg
g2 counterspelled my rhino when i played around daze with carpet(next fkn level) i gsz for meren (he spends about 2 mins reading it lol)
meren back rhino end step(he has drs but no green open) dismembers meren(what is this even) top deck nissa she flips and gets me gsz off the top for sigarda, concede!
You effectively became one with the Rhino. Congrats man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Rhino's Abbondanza:
Sportsmanship, such a rare and beautiful thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
SB Thalia? Wouldn't you rather have Ethersworn Cannonist? Cannonist is also useful against Elves, especially against the new Chaos Elves which tries to explode thru Glimpse chain. Also this deck doesn't have anything to support the mana denial plan, so mostly i will just not even try.
From your MD i really like the 2/1 Split with Pruth's and Skeletal Scrying, But i fail to find Sensei's Divining Top. Top is an important card for this deck as it enables us to dig pretty deep to filter and find stuff we want. A lot of times i leave my fetches uncracked and hold "extra" Veteran Explorers so i have on demand shuffle when i need something. One shot card draw is good, but card quality still is what makes the difference. I see you are lacking some space tho.
Baneslayer Angel looks really good, and not just the artwork. I have updated my own list to include 2 instead of Liliana. I like the idea to have something at the end of the manaramp.
4c just doesn't look attractive to me, keeping it at Junk makes it much more streamlined, efficient.
As for what to change on your list.. i couldn't tell. Probably i would look at a 3/3 split Path/Decay. If comparing to my list i could say that Rhino nr4, Courser, Path nr 4 and Dryad Arbor are more or less flex slots.
For some, lol. The only flex slots I have, as far as I'm concerned, are the 6 CMC/additional removal/planeswalkers package (4 slots in total).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
The 5 CMC stuff that replaces Rhino nr. 4 just doesn't do enough to be worth the extra mana (or would have me looking for that card instead of Sigarda). Courser seems underwhelming but does a shitload of work. And it can win the burn MU singlehandedly. Dryad Arbor brings too many tricks to the table not to run it. All of them are small things, but often that little edge does help you win in the long run. As for Path nr. 4, well, it's simply the best spot removal card in Legacy. Depending on your meta I can understand you'd want to go down to 3, but in mine not so much.
As i understand Baneslayer is pretty Banana's (Bananaslayer Angel, xD). 4 Rhino plus 4 GSZ makes 8 virtual copies. Going to 7 would be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I couldnt agree more about Path, but some do not and i try to think with them instead against.
Courser has underperformed a bit due to the high(er) velocity of the deck and Nissa is a better GSZ target in some situations. I am keeping Courser under the scrying glass for now.
Let me explain the Thalia some more: there was belcher and dredge amongst other combo decks. 1 elves player. Canonist wouldn't do as much compared to Thalia. Thalia was also insurance against any pyro delver decks. I love my tangle-haired mistress, but she simply didn't make the cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
As for card draw, I can understand the need for SDT, but don't know what to cut. I just mentioned how I'm open to the idea of trimming back some business in favor of draw/filter components.
@Baneslayer: looks meh on paper. Absolutely dominates in play. It's better than Rhino at times because it flies, has first strike (actually relevant), and lifeline (again, relevant). Of all things, I think I'd cut Pulse or Thragtusk from the MD to accommodate Angel #2 but I'm not 100% on this. 3 rhino 2 angel makes a lot of sense to me. How much better would I be with Thragtusk on top of that? Not sure. The mana also needs fixing if I go 2 baneslayer because double white is a thing.
@4C: I want Pfires and sometimes Huntmaster. The pro-white dragon, pyroblast, sudden demise, and ruination would be nice pickups for the SB. Junk is the better color for my meta due to Paths and Vindicate. Rhino was solid, but I'll be the first one to say he's not the reason I run Junk. He's VERY strong, but white removal spells are on another level.