1st Place - SCG Open: Atlanta - Dredge

This was my 2nd SCG Open tournament. I was lucky enough to play in Louisville over the summer (visiting family and randomly saw it was happening that weeked), but my Merfolk deck faced Grim Lavamancer decks in 5 out of 6 matches, and so I didn't do well. It was fun, so I decided to take the opportunity to go to Atlanta. A friend (funyun45 on these forums) and I traveled from Baton Rouge to Atlanta to have fun at the tournament - we didn't have any expectations about doing well (I'm highly skeptical of what other people think tournament data actually means).

I played MWC at the 4-round tournament the night before - many epics games were had. I knew I was going to play a deck that can consistently win 2 of 3 in 50 minutes (thus, not MWC), but I didn't know what deck. It looked like I was going to play Merfolk, but I hate piloting the deck (boring). Funyun and I ended up re-building LEDless Dredge that night, making a hybrid from manaless dredge concepts. We didn't get much testing with the last build I used for the tournament (but that's okay, I trust theory more than practice), but I was confident in the deck and I knew I liked the deck more than Merfolk.

The List:

// Lands - 13
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

// Dredgers - 13
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast

// GY Goodies - 14
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return

// Draw/Discard - 20
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study

// Sideboard
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ray of Revelation

The gameplan is to DDD, and when it is either safe or necessary to cast spells, then do so. The deck can play fast (which is important against opposing combo/aggro decks), and remains capable of playing against permission. The problems I had with both manaless and my old LEDless dredge lists were largely solved in this build.

I've done my best recall what happened (any corrections are appreciated - I am trying to accurately represent what happened), it is somewhat hazy, and the order of rounds 5-7 might be off. I don't remember most names, sorry.


Round 1 - Sligh - 2/0
I rolled him a turn before I would lose both games. I won turn 3 in the first game and turn 4 second game. He opened both games with Goblin Guide, but they ended up helping me a great deal. His Goblin Guide gave me gamebreaking lands in both games. Importantly, in the first game the Guide reveal was important for helping me to avoid the timewalk penalty of my mulligan, while in the second game it sped up my no-land hand (w/SW) with a breakthrough. For game 2: -2 SW; +1 Iona, +1 Chosen. He also elected to play in g2 (oops). I saw both targets, but he had Vortex on t3, so I couldn't profitably DR Chosen. Stupidly, I forgot to DR Iona (it was hidden underneath a card) to seal the deal in g2 (doh), but he didn't topdeck what he needed to win. He didn't burn out his own creatures to hit my bridges (but, he was tapped out at critical moments).


Round 2 - UW Stoneblade - 2/0
Game 1 wasn't even close. If I remember correctly, he opened the game with 3 StPs on my Ichorids and used Jace to bounce a token, but he had no relevent interaction otherwise. Game 2, he sides in 2 Wrath, 2 PtE, 2 Relic, 2 Surgical Extraction (I asked him after). He elected to play in g2 (oops). I sided: -4 SW; +4 Grudge. I beleve he had counters for my draw, so I was mostly in DDD mode. Therapy and Grudge made the T2 SFM->T3 Batterskull route much weaker, and Grudge handled manlands when I didn't have bridges. He had some actual beats in this game though. Eventually, the board was 2 SFM and 1 Clique, my board was mediocre with a few tokens, a giant GGT and Narco; I was at low life. I overthought, choosing not to go with my first instinct, and blocked, removing bridges, only to eat a Wrath (which I knew he had). I should have taken the damage, he'd have wrathed, and I'd have made tokens, but I didn't (doh). I made a board faster than he did though, and so I got there.


Round 3 - Merfolk - Played this guy the day before (he wasn't polite the day before) - 2/0
Game 1 was fairly close, from what I remember, as he had a strong lord + Cursecatcher hand, while I had weak dredges and made minor play errors (I believe I misordered the hardcasting of discard and draw). I ended up doing the normal merfolk route, which is taking as much damage as you can accept while letting Ichorid (which you don't swing with if he possibly has a blocker to die) build a large army, choosing only to block when I don't lose bridges and/or at the last possible moment if I do lose bridges in the block (which becomes a bit more complicated when they have evasion). Cursecatcher forces us to bend over backwards not to play spells - thank goodness we have Ichorid. He sides in crypts, jittes, and (I believe) echoing truth. I believe he had a 16-lord build, so I didn't side Elesh (the odds of resolving it aren't great), but I did go: -4 SW; +4 Grudge. He elected to play in g2 (oops). Game 2 was a blowout. Because he lacked vital information about my hand (sandbagged grudge = awesome), I was able to force him to make major sacrifices, getting rid of most of his board and his Jitte. I basically had to fight through 4 counters to get rid of Jitte, but it was game over from there - he played correctly, and I got lucky.


Round 4 - UWb Stoneblade - (Sam - IsThisACatInAHat? on The Source) - 1/2
Game 1:
This game was somewhat close, he had some relevant board and stack interaction, but I still got there. From what I remember, T2 SFM fails against Cabal Therapy (bye bye Batterskull) - this happened over and over in the tournament. Therapy wrecks him 3 times (hitting both his SFMed Equipment, Jace, and the 4th was MMed).

Game 2:
Noteworthy, he elected to draw (smart man)! I side: -4 SW; +4 Grudge. Game 2 wasn't close, he opens with Leyline, and we goto G3 (I just didn't expect Leyline).

Game 3:
For the last game, I side: -4 Grudge (because I am retarded), -1 DR, -1 DBlast; +4 Claim, +2 Ray. Of course, I elect to draw. Game 3 was ridiculously close. I mull to 6 (with a ray, claim, land, etc.), he keeps his 7 (if I remember correctly). He opens with Leyline, I Claim it. He gets the ball rolling while I'm drawing more cards trying to get to 8, and turn 4 he hardcasts Leyline. I ray it. Eventually, I dredge my deck out, and he's got 35ish life with Batterskull active. I had to dredge hard (I was at very low life), and ended up with 5 cards left in my library, a few tokens, GGT (which he eventually answers), and 4 Ichorids in recursion. I forgot to DR->GGT, and was a turn late (a mistake which cost me the game). Problematically, he had 5 mana, SFM and Batterskull to pwn my Bridges (return, germ dies, Bridges exile, SFM it back in). I keep returning Ichorids over and over, but Batterskull does a good job at making it very hard to kill him. I end up decking myself a turn before I'd win. Fuck. I sided incorrectly (I needed 2 Grudges - which would have wrecked Batterskull) and I misplayed by DRing GGT a turn later than I should have.


Round 5 - GW Maverick - 2/1
I got to play at the featured match tables from about this match onward.

I won the roll, and sadly, I had to tell him he was playing first (I hate winning the roll). He essentially looked at me and told me I was bad at magic (he was serious), but he also didn't know what I was playing. Vindicatingly, we weren't even playing magic in game 1 - Dredge did its thing. It was a turn 4 win with an army and 2 giant GGTs. And, that's what the deck is about -- if you want to win at magic, then avoid playing magic (as you normally do) and interacting as usual. He elects to play in Game 2 (oops). I do the usual -4 SW; +4 Grudge. He end step e-tutors on my first turn, and plays t2 Wheel (shit), so we move to g3. I didn't expect an e-tutor board in metagame filled with MM. I side: -2 Grudge, -2 DR, -1 Phantasmagorian (could have been study), -1 Thug (DBlast can be powerful in this matchup); +4 Claim, +2 Ray. I mull to 6, he mulls into 4 (opting not to keep his initial 1 land + crypt + 5 more cards hand). I have a slow start, slow enough that eventually he has some interaction (but not dangerously so). I remember that he KoTR'd for a Dryad Arbor, but ended up not KoTR'ing his arbor to get rid of my bridges (which made my job just that much easier). It didn't matter though, I was too far ahead.


Round 6 - BUG (a hybrid of Landstill and TA) - (Gerry Thompson) - 2/1
Game 1:
I believe I won the roll (damnit), telegraphing what I was playing, and he made sure he had a relevant hand. Game 1, he Thoughtseizes me, and I comment that he was timewalking me, he agreed (he seemed to be the only player I played that day who instantly understood what I was doing). He then goes back to back Hymns (no dredger hits the GY), timewalking me all day until Goyfmath won.

Game 2:
I side in a mix of hate, not knowing what to expect: -4 SW, -1 DBlast, -1 DR; +4 Claim, +1 Grudge, +1 Ray. I elected to draw, ofc. He did the same discarding shenanigans, goyfmath, and had a deed to make my life hard. I honestly didn't expect to win this (I wasn't paying very good attention to lifetotals), but noticed in the last possible turns that he was in danger just as I was. Two turns before I won, I had a difficult choice. I needed two blockers and a bridge in the next two turns, and I had to flip a combination of cards to surive. I had a breakthrough in hand, but no land in play. I did some quick math on whether it was better to dredge twice or attempt to draw a land to break (his hand was safe at the time), and it turned out that the correct thing to do was draw instead of Dredge. I drew a Bridge (sadly), so I had one more turn. He topdecks a Thoughtseize and I lose my break, so then I'm relegated to dredging next turn. My Dredge turns out to have all the money cards I need and a phantasmagorian to empty my Bridge in hand (pure luck), so I was able to stall and squeek out a win (as he was low on life after MM/Dismember/FoW/Fetches/a few beats).

Game 3:
I figure he doesn't have Leyline: -4 Claim, -1 Grudge; +1 DR, +1 Ray, +3 SW. He elected to draw (smart man). Game 3, he does more discard timewalks, and he played well. I eventually am able to get to the position of squeeking lethal through (yet again) 3 lethal goyfs and a Deed. Very close.


Round 7 - Merfolk (Alfonso) - 2/0
I rolled him both games. I basically didn't cast a single spell until it was already over, as he had early Cursecatchers and I had very vulnerable bridges in both games. I basically amassed tons of tokens to alpha strike him. He elected to play g2 (oops). I side as usual for Grudges. In game 2, he also made a play error in swinging with a lord and 4 Cursecatchers (he had another lord which had summoning sickness) while I had enough zombies to blow him out by multi-blocking the lord and blocking the Cursecatchers, and when his lord died, his cursecatchers did too. It would have been much closer had he done the math right.

Round 8 - Team America (Nikita, we took this guy to his bus stop after the tourney) - 2/0
First turn he Thoughtseizes me, swears with a wonderful Russian accent (a long stream of them) - he didn't want to play against Dredge at all. He gets pwned so quickly that I wasn't even sure what deck he was playing (never got to Therapy, he scooped before I could see his hand) - I guessed TA given his cantrips. I side: -4 SW, -1 DR, -1 DBlast; +4 Claim, +2 Ray. He elects to play g2 (oops). I draw and discard Phantasmagorian, he extirpates it (ouch). I'm forced to actually play magic, I'm on the losing end, and eventually I'm at 5 life staring down a Goyf and TS (each of which are lethal). I activate CC and dredge my deck over, DR an Imp to handle TS, get a Narco, and a few tokens. I roll him from there (he made the misplay of attacking with both, and I double block, and get my tokens to be lethal).

Round 9 - Zoo - (Lementor, here on the source) - ID
We didn't know for sure if we would make top 8 by IDing, but we were convinced that the probability was very high to make top 8, so we just IDed. We had played the day before (nice guy). He made top 8.


Quarter Finals - UWb Stoneblade - (Sam) - 2/0
I get to avenge my only loss. I love being able to read my opponent's decklist before a match - it gave me more useful information than it gave him (he got see my deck in the GY anyways). Game 1 he gets rolled, not much to say. I side: -4 SW, -1 DR, -1 DBlast, -1 Phantasmagorian, -1 Careful Study; +4 Claim, +2 Ray, +2 Grudge. Game 2 he mulls into 4 with a Leyline, I mull to 6 with Claim/Land/etc. I Claim Leyline. I make the somewhat risky play of following it up with Break the next turn (he didn't counter the claim on Leyline, so I thought it was worth trying, particularly as he was far enough behind that just getting the ball rolling would end him). It resolves and so I get some dredgers into the GY, and eventually start dredging as usual. Later, after some brainstorming, he telegraphs what is in his hand (he had 2 cards in hand), as he hasn't been using permission or board control (given plenty of opportunities), he doesn't make a land drop (and has 3 lands in play), and so I blind Therapy on Leyline (it could have been Jace or his singleton Batterskull), hitting 2 Leylines in his hand that he could play next turn (I believe he topdecks the land next turn). Later he gets Bob going. He ends up getting his 4th Leyline (I saw from Bob reveal), I have ray in the GY, but I just Therapied it (either to bait the permission or rip it out of his hand), and then rolled him.

Semi Finals - UW Standstill Stoneblade - (Chris Boozer) - 2/0
I roll him game 1. He elected to play in g2 (oops). Side: -4 SW; +4 Grudge. G1 was massacre. G2 was so freaking close - I barely survived two relics, but squeaked out the win. I assume the video of this match will eventually be found here.

Finals - Merfolk - 2/0
General notes: after seeing my decklist, he elected to play in g1 (oops) and g2 (oops). Side: -3 Careful Study; +2 Grudge, +1 Elesh. He was smart with his use of Wasteland on manlands. He had a crap sideboard for this match, and there wasn't much he could do. You can read the specifics here.



Quick Thoughts:

• Phantasmagorian was outstanding.
• My anti-GY hate was outstanding.
• The DR targets were almost useless. If I had different matchups, that could have been different.
• 13 Dredgers is beautiful, as you really, really need to open hands which have a dredger (or you very well might get timewalked).
• In the event I did mulligan, it was still possible to race with blue draw effects and land (so, you don't necessarily have to suffer getting timewalked if you choose to risk playing spells before getting your DDD engine going).
• While every deck except my finals match had graveyard hate, the decks I faced were even to favorable matchups for Dredge. I made lots of mistakes (and so did my opponents), but I still won anyways (I was lucky). I had fun.
• I sided out Street Wraiths in every match except the finals. That might look weird to you, but the guy had no GY hate, which made Careful Study less useful than SW because it gets hit by permission (and SW feeds Ichorid, while CS doesn't, which is very important in this matchup). Careful Study is one of the best ways to recover from GY hate, otherwise, you are stuck drawing to 8 (which can take quite a while in the midgame). But, since he didn't have GY hate, I didn't need Careful Study as badly.

peace,
4eak

Gratz! =)

Very good report, tons of decent info, and a nice crafted decklist!

I wonder how amazing was Phantasmagorian... It looks like as if it only help when you already have somthing at hand, isn't it better to run more dredgers (+1 Darkblast perhaps) or Firestorm as uncounterable discard, instead of a couple of 'Gorians?

Gratz dude! Can't tell you how happy I am, a regular on these forums took it down!! :-) Hell, I had no idea that was YOU in the finals. I turned off the stream after the 1/4 Finals because it was like 4am in Germany by then...if only I had known! :-)

AWESOME JOB!!!

Congratz on playing through hate! Well done, congratulations on winning the tournament. I figured people wouldn't be packing much hate for the event but I guess people still do because without hate you always get rolled sans when you're storm combo or something faster.

Thanks, (y')all. =)

@ Gui

I answered your question in the Dredge thread.


peace,
4eak

Awesome job mate, an intriguing build (one I shall assuredly look into in the near future) of an excellent meta choice. Way to rep the Source!

Very nice, I was entertained watching but I have a question about the semis, G2. Why did you crack his incredibly poorly played Standstill? It seems like you could have just made a lot of tokens by Ichorid recursion and not worried about him casting anything. You seemingly would have just run him over without him having a chance. Any reasoning I'm missing on that?

Congrats on the finish!

If I recall correctly, I really didn't want to break it (initially I thought it was a bad idea for him to drop it - I even joked with him earlier that Standstill seemed pretty weak in this matchup), but I think he had just played an SFM, and I didn't want to face an equipped monster, especially not if he could get to the point where he had Batterskull+SFM+5 mana (even 3 lands is enough if you do it over two turns) where he could recursively pwn my bridges. If not, then I'll need to see the video footage (which might jog my memory). It may still have been better to sit under standstill - he drew into 2 relics which nearly cost me the game. I can't claim to have played perfectly, especially not after being so exhausted at that point.



peace,
4eak

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4eak

If I recall correctly, I really didn't want to break it (initially I thought it was a bad idea for him to drop it - I even joked with him earlier that Standstill seemed pretty weak in this matchup), but I think he had just played an SFM, and I didn't want to face an equipped monster, especially not if he could get to the point where he had Batterskull+SFM+5 mana (even 3 lands is enough if you do it over two turns) where he could recursively pwn my bridges. If not, then I'll need to see the video footage (which might jog my memory). It may still have been better to sit under standstill - he drew into 2 relics which nearly cost me the game. I can't claim to have played perfectly, especially not after being so exhausted at that point.



peace,
4eak

---

If I remember correctly you had just ripped 1 Batterskull from his hand so unless he played 2 in his deck he was just done for. Was just wondering if you were thinking that or if it may have just been an accident (definitely happen after that long playing... it's kind of funny the matches that most people watch are usually the ones with most mistakes due to grinding so long).

Congrats 4eak!

On your MWC, are you talking about Quinn? Also, aside from the eon-long games, how did you do with MWC during the 4 round tournament?

Hey good job 4eak. Go go go dredge. I think I played against you @comic con in New Orleans , this recent year? I was the guy at the end at the ten man tourney playing, yeah you guessed it, dredge.

@ Phoenix Ignition

Ah, okay. I think it is coming back to me. When he SFMed, he picked up a Sword (instead of Batterskull), which clearly telegraphed the Batterskull in his hand (we joked about it). I Therapy'd for Batterskull, and then I think he dropped Standstill with the Sword in hand and SFM still in play. I don't believe I had a great GY/board position, so I broke the Standstill to go for his Sword, as he'd have a serious threat that could have overcome me. I've found it was worth trying to Therapy for equipment, even with Grudges, as it either works or baits out his counters so that grudge will be more likely to resolve.

@ (nameless one)
I did poorly with MWC (not Quinn). I ended up going to time (despite playing quite fast), which sucks when you are definitely winning.

@ joemauer
Yes, I remember you. Dredge (you) vs. Merfolk (me). We had some good games.


peace,
4eak

did you basically 2-0 anyone who was an unmitigated asshole?

Good job 4eak!

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4307/timeg.jpg

Congrats on the finish, 4eak. It was great to meet you! Your build was sick, I remember talking about it with you in the middle of some rounds but... :eek:

Didn't realize that was you that top 1'd. Congrats man!

Star City posts pairings online.

There's no reason not to have the name of every opponent, except laziness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mchainmail

Star City posts pairings online.

There's no reason not to have the name of every opponent, except laziness.

---

I wouldn't put names on the report just to spite you with that kind of attitude :-P

The names were left off to protect the identies of those who got their butt's kicked by a supposedly dead deck.

This list could warrant an entry in the budgets -- your attempts ^^

Hey man, wanted to congratulate you on winning the whole thing (I was your top 4 opponent). You were very nice throughout the match and played really well, as opposed to me. I clearly was not prepared for the matchup and made several mistakes throughout. Grats though for sure!

Thank you. It was a pleasure to meet and play magic with you!


peace,
4eak

Sweet report, and it's awesome to see a regular win the entire thing! Well done!

One small question though: what does DDD mean? "Draw, discard, dredge"? I'm not a dredge player and English isn't my first language, so I haven't seen the term before :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Purgatory

Sweet report, and it's awesome to see a regular win the entire thing! Well done!

One small question though: what does DDD mean? "Draw, discard, dredge"? I'm not a dredge player and English isn't my first language, so I haven't seen the term before :/

---

Yes, that's what it means ^^

Oh, the videos of my last two matches and the interview are up right here. Scroll down to the last 3 video clips to find them.



peace,
4eak

So much respect dood. Cereal. Plus you do what I do, decline to shuffle after they break a fetch. It is how true pimps play magic. "Nucka I don't wanna touch your cards!" Great job bro. :tongue:

Congratulations, i enjoyed watching the video matches.

Im a new player so plz forgive me if this is a dumb question.
The whole mental misstep banning October 1st, i believe i heard you say in the interview this deck was specifically designed against misstep? Or a better version against misstep than ledless dredge (or something like that).
I dont really see it, how would u change the dredge list after Oct 1?

Btw, im going to play this is in an upcoming legacy tournament, i dont care about the meta or hate, its cheaper than most decks and this seems really fun to play :)
Thxz.

The decklist avoided Mental Misstep by building around the DDD strategy. You always elect to draw (not play), you open a hand with a dredger (pretty common), you discard down (uncounterable), and you get to start slow-dredging. You can always continue to DDD and use phantasmagorian to empty your hand, but you also have the ability to drop lands to play spells (when it is safe and/or necessary).

The change I would make, after MM's banning, would be to add the discard outlets back into the deck. I am in the minority opinion (I believe) in seeking to continue to DDD even after MM's banning. You can find my explanation in the dredge thread.

This is the decklist I'm using right now:

// Lands - 14
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

// Dredgers - 13
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast

// GY Goodies - 18
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

// Self-Discard - 7
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Putrid Imp

// Draw - 8
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 3 Tireless Tribe
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation

I highly suggest reading both the Non-LED Dredge (a goldmine of information for LEDless players and construction) and the regular (likely now the de facto) Dredge threads. They'll be very useful to you.



peace,
4eak

Congrats on the victory man. I just joined because i saw the interview at the end of the tourey and have been trying to contact you asking how youd build the deck after this recent ban.
After seeing this new list though i have a few questions.
1: Why tribe and not imp mb or both, and why have more discard outlets in the sideboard? Tribe seems like a better blocker+ outlet. My guess is for the blue decks that are going to start forcing the first outlet you cast? Especially 3, thats a lot of spots.
2: Iv personally havent played the manaless version more than a few times but do you think Phantasmagorian is still better than tribe?
3: Second Tarnished Citadel a lot better than just one?
4: No GY hate for reanimator or any other gy based deck? Seems pretty hard to win when they go turn 1 entomb. They can reanimate a Iona a tad quicker than us.
5: Do you almost always throw in all 9 artifact/enchant kill against any black deck? and all 7 for anything else?

Thx again and good luck man!

I've answered some of these questions in depth in the Dredge thread (last 3-4 pages). I'll very briefly explain my thoughts here though:

1. • I don't have the full 8 PImp/Tribe outlets in the deck because I don't have room for them. They aren't actually that useful game 1, except for mulligans (which should be very uncommon). Game 2/3 it is more common to mulligan (as you are looking for more specific hands to handle a particular deck and anti-GY hate), and you want better ways to recover from GY hate. PImp/Tribe are far more useful in G2/3 - I still have 4 PImp MB and 3 Tribe to side in.
   • Tribes is a better blocker, but as I rely upon Ichorid more than usual (going from 3 to 4), the black creature count matters, hence PImp.
   • FoW on my discard outlets are pretty uncommon because I'm DDDing. They have bigger targets to hit, and I very often get to therapy for FoW before dropping an outlet that is important to me.
2. For the DDD strategy, yes, it is clearly better than Tribe. The card may require some practice to motivate a better understanding of the theory behind it.
3. The 2nd Tarnished citadel is in the deck because we have a higher mana curve.
4. I'm not convinced that they necessarily reanimate Iona faster than we can (especially if they only run 1), but I agree they do combo off before we do. I'm far less worried about answering opposing GY and combo decks than others because I don't think we have great options against many of them. If Reanimator, specifically, is a worry, then Leyline seems reasonable. I'm not convinced you should play Dredge in a metagame filled with faster decks, not unless are you just preying upon combo predators (generally blue decks).
5. Sideboarding is a bit more nuanced than that. I'll try to generalize: I rarely side in more than 4 anti-GY hate cards, unless it is to handle Leyline/Wheel.

peace,
4eak

Hi 4eak,

First of all congratulation on your win. I have not been back to The Source for a while.

Second, love how you explained your use of the phantasmogorian, and its situational uses.

Third, I know you feel that bloodghasts are "janky". However I would still like your opinion on how it can be incorporated into a dredge deck.

Just recently acquired a dredge deck so I'm browsing through the forums for more information on how to play it.

--TheProfessor

How you should incorporate Bloodghast into the deck requires we know how/why we are using them in the first place. It is in direct competition for card slots and other functions, and the reasoning for Bloodghast will impact what we take out.

I honestly don't know how to incorporate it in a way that I like. For every example substitution you'd make for Bloodghast, I believe I can tell you why it is weaker than regular, non-Bloodghast builds.

That's not the answer you want, but that is the most accurate answer I can give. If pressed to give a decklist, I'd start with this:

// Regular Lands - 13
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds

// Dredgers - 13
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

// Self-Discard - 6
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Putrid Imp

// Recursive Creatures - 11
3 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba

// Draw - 7
3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

// GY-Goodies - 10
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return

I don't think this is the best way to build the deck. But, if you are set on using Bloodghast, this is where I'd start.



peace,
4eak

I see iv gained some insight from that. Are you stilling planning on going the DDD plan game one then and a discard outlet g2 or it just depends on how fast you need to go off and what you draw? I figured since MM is gone the deck would be trying to go off as quick as possible since other fast decks are now not in check anymore. Or maybe even the LED version may be a better version now?

I want to draw in all games, whether or not I actually DDD depends on the specific circumstance.

Dredge has no place in a format that is faster than it. Mental Misstep, hilariously, was a good thing for dredge, I just didn't realize that fact until it was almost too late.

I'm still convinced that when you design around the DDD strategy, you also have the best chance to draw those "turn 2" hands. There is a lot that goes into that, see the Dredge thread - I give some important math in there (I think).

I would add that many people just don't realize what the 8th card means to a combo deck. The average turn you "go off" is substantially faster/earlier with that 8th card for ANT, Belcher, etc. The same is true for Dredge (no matter the build or strategy), but Dredge is uniquely improved (and thus having even more reason to draw) even further by actually becoming far more consistent when you also grant the option to DDD from your opener. Combined, Dredge, even built for speed, should be drawing rather than playing.


peace,
4eak

Another thing im guessing why you did so well is because the vast knowledge of legacy decks, iv been having success with the recent list post MM banning. My problems now seems to be G1 turn 1 or 2 cabal therapy targets. Some decks it seems pretty simple like naming force of will or batterskull in u/w stoneforge but do you mine setting up a list of good cabal therapy targets for the majority of the top decks? before and after hate depending on what most of those decks from for gy hate?
Like Zoo: Teag, Grim Lavamancer, Bolt and so on.

How you should go about naming therapy is very circumstantial and (almost) particularistic. I don't have much general advice or a known decision procedure for the card, although I will claim there is a correct answer in any given situation. Therapy is a card you need to practice with (a lot), and you need to become very familiar with the decks of legacy (as you point out).

I think I can give you a name if you give me specific situations. It can be more difficult to specify than you'd initially think. The answer depends on more than just what is on the board, in the GY, your opponent's hand (as far as you know), and telling my your hand and what you sided in. My answer would vary if you know (and to what degree you know) or don't know the decklist and sideboard of your opponent. My answer might vary based upon assumptions of opponent skill (I don't necessarily assume my opponent plays perfectly). Etc.

Unfortunately, that might not seem helpful to you right now, but I think with practice, you'll come to agree with me on most of these points.


peace,
4eak

Alright cool i understand its just having more vast knowledge and sorta knowing whats going on and what cards enable some other cards to blow up your bridges or exiles/kills ichorids and narcs. Did you ever have anyone playing Bojuka Bog or Extirpate against you? A lot of the loom decks seem to be running those. And iv come across a lot of random decks running the Extirpates too. more so than before the banning. Nothing worse then a crop rotation into a bog as soon as you dredge half your library lol. What all decks did you play against at the tourney besides what was documented at the semi and final?


Would Leyline of Sanctity be a half bad idea in the sb with the meta speeding back up and all the storm decks coming back?
Iv been testing with your list a lot and im having more trouble with some of the faster deck and being targeted with hate.
I put together a list im going to test out a bit and id like your opinion on it for the meta changing. The main deck seems pretty standard but from what iv seen the darkblast isnt something i alwasy want g1. And by the time i can use it ill usually be blowing my own bridges up. I agree for with your statement about mb reanimator targets but i feel Flame-Kin Zealot being able to end the game there and now when they could be tapped out. The second game against chriss boozer, when he was tapped out on t2? oe 3? i think and you reanimated the troll and it got swords the next turn because he was able to untap and cast it. Do you think its important enough to be able to kill on the turn you get 6+ zombies before they can untap? Even if you only get them below 8 or so and the ichorids/ extra tokens can finish them off.



// Lands - 14
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

// Dredgers - 13
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp

// Reanimate
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

// GY Goodies - 18
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

// Self-Discard - 7
3 Tireless Tribe or Phantasmagorian i havent decided what i like better.
4 Putrid Imp

// Draw - 8
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Darkblast

After reading your match report, I am amused at that atleast over half of your matches involve you getting a headstart because the other player would not take the draw in games two and three, or in the Top 8, would not elect to draw as well in game 1. Sounds like the quality of opponents (minus Gerry Thompsan apparently seeing as how he played you pretty close and did actually elect to draw) was what propelled you to victory. Oh well, good win in Atlanta. The Phantasmagorans are great in Mental Misstep meta, but I don't think they are the future of dredge machine. Dredge is extremly meta game dependant anyways, if not the most in the format. So for this reason congrats.

Hi,

I really like this build and I came up with a quite similar list than yours 4eak.

But I have some questions about the sideboard:

Would you systematically side out Phantasmagorian for Tireless Tribe?
What would you side out for the other cards? In your previous list Street Wraith was out almost each game 2/3, what about now?

Is Nature's claim the best choice right now? Isn't Chain of Vapor better because of less Leyline and more Reanimator?

Thank you