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Thread: [Archetype] Life from the Loam

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    [Archetype] Life from the Loam

    The Life From the Loam archetype has been tried many times, and many ways in Legacy. While no single deck has risen to the top, the gameplan is solid, and has shown impressive results in European tournaments.

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    Use and Abuse
    Life from the Loam has the ability to generate some insane card advantage while putting cards in you graveyard. Here is a brief list of typical cards to use and abuse with LftL:
    • Cyclying Lands for the LftL draw engine.
    • Threshold land (Barbarian Ring, Cephalid Colluseum) recursion.
    • Glacial Chasm protection.
    • Manland (Mishra's Factory, Nantuko Monestary) recursion.
    • Wasteland recursion.
    • Gifts Ungiven Piles with Academy Ruins.
    • Wild Mongrel for recurring pump.
    • Solitary Confinement + LftL + Cycle Lands for a perpetual lock.
    • Inuition to fetch LftL and Cycle lands.
    • Dredge Cards or cards with Flashback - Cabal Therapy is a prime candidate.
    • Wonder, Genesis, and other Incarnations.


    Discussion Question: What other cards can LftL abuse?

    Playing against LftL
    Here are some prime and popular choices for negating the LftL card drawing engine. Be wary of the opponent cycling a land (or otherwise drawing at instant speed) to save his LftL from your yard hate.
    • Tormod's Crypt
    • Extirpate - likely the best LftL hate card in currently printed
    • Leyline of the Void
    • Phyrexian Furnace


    Discussion Question: Against LftL decks, are broad, yet imperfect, solutions like Tormod's Crypt better than focused hate like Extirpate?

    Discussion Question: What type of deck can best abuse LftL? Aggro, Aggro-Control, or Control?

    Discussion Question: Is LftL best as the focal point of a deck or is it better as a support card?
    Last edited by Zilla; 04-03-2007 at 05:30 PM.

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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    After having done a little testing with 43land, I've come to the the conclusion that the best way to beat LftL decks is not to attack LftL. It is nearly impossible to *actually* remove it, because of the cycling lands that allow them to dredge it back to their hand whenever they want. What I ended up settling on for my aggro deck was Ankh of Mishra, although I considered Tsabo's Web for some time as well. Against 43land, Ankh is the superior choice, I think, although the argument could be made for Web in matchups where the LftL player was not boarding Zuran Orbs. Cards like Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Back to Basics, which attack their manabase as a whole are going to be more effective than trying to remove LftL, because wide hosers were printed for nonbasic lands, whereas there is no wide hoser for sorceries(Squeeze doesn't really affect LftL decks). The only workable RFG solution, as far as I'm concerned, is Planar Void, which requires you to be playing black of course.
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    I agree, even Extirpate can be worked through with Chalice of the Void and Burning Wish. The secret to beating a loam deck is attacking the nonbasic lands it plays. A good clock with Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Back to Basics or any other non basic hoser will usually be your best bet. Most loam decks also rely on Artifact or Enchantments for support so keeping a good amount of hate in your board will go along way. With Enchantress seeing play again I'd go as far as saying Tranquility is a fine sb option.
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Against 43 land.. the mulch and LFTL build, when I play goblins I board in chalice and work toward setting it at 2 along with my other land disruption, usually port.
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomator View Post
    Against 43 land.. the mulch and LFTL build, when I play goblins I board in chalice and work toward setting it at 2 along with my other land disruption, usually port.
    You set a chalice at 2 while playing a deck BASED off of 2-mana sorceries?
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by MattH View Post
    You set a chalice at 2 while playing a deck BASED off of 2-mana sorceries?

    Hmm, I didn't know that new Goblin builds were BASED on 2-Mana-sorceries ; )

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomator View Post
    Against 43 land.. the mulch and LFTL build, when I play goblins I board in chalice and work toward setting it at 2 along with my other land disruption, usually port.
    That plan won't work. There is no way that you use your Mana disruption against 43-lands. They have Exploaration and Mana Bond, so they won't care if you trade 2 of your Mana against one of theirs. The only one who uses Ports in this matchup is the 43-land-guy.

    And they have recurring Wastelands so that any of your Nonbasics will get destroyed ASAP. It is really hard to get to 4 Mana against 43-lands deck as you will probably need 6 Basic mountans for it to work through Wastelands and Ports. It may very well be too late when you finally reach them.

    Edit:

    This should be close to Sascha's latest build. It was successfully played in 2 medium local tournaments (25 players).

    // Lands
    4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
    4 [ON] Windswept Heath
    3 [A] Savannah
    3 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
    4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
    3 [UL] Treetop Village
    4 [MM] Rishadan Port
    3 [R] Taiga
    1 [8E] Forest (2)
    1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    4 [DK] Maze of Ith
    2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    1 [JU] Riftstone Portal

    // Spells
    4 [US] Exploration
    4 [EX] Manabond
    3 [SH] Mulch
    4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
    3 [US] Gamble

    1 Meta / Gamble Slot: (Additonal Fetchland, Additional Cycleland, Akroma's Vengeance, Armageddon, Chalice of the Void, Ancient Grudge)

    // Sideboard
    SB: 3 [5E] Armageddon
    SB: 2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
    SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
    SB: 1 [4E] Nevinyrral's Disk
    SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
    SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
    SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
    SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void

  7. #7

    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Tao, how about adding crucible of worlds just in case your opponent gets a CotV out with 2 counters?

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    Taobotmox

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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Yep, I remember. He had a Crucible in the Sideboard and it was good.

    But after the last tourneys we agreed on adding additional Chalices of the Void to the SB to have something to fight against Burn and Tendrils-Combo. I have cuttet a 3-Sphere and the crucible for it. I wouldn't know what else to cut from the SB, all slots are needed imo.

  9. #9

    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao View Post
    Hmm, I didn't know that new Goblin builds were BASED on 2-Mana-sorceries ; )
    No. But 43 land is.
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by MattH View Post
    No. But 43 land is.

    Reading comprehension FTW. The exact phrase you quoted makes it pretty clear what he is talking about.


    Against 43 land.. the mulch and LFTL build, when I play goblins I board in chalice and work toward setting it at 2 along with my other land disruption, usually port.


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  11. #11

    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    I'll blame it on the lateness of the hour, but yeah, my bad. All apologies.
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    I was reffering to usiong rishadan port until I can get to 4 mana. Stalling anyway I can and then cutting off loam and mulch is very very good. The deck is incredibly slow, and 4 mountains to cast it is usually not a problem, if they have rishadan port and you do too, you try to port their port in the upkeep. Between fetches and mountains in the deck, getting four untapped basics in my main phase is usually not a problem. The point of it is that 43 LAND IS BASED OFF OF 2 MANA SORCERIES. I have tested the match, and getting to 4 mana is not difficult, seeing as I run the 23 land goblin build.
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    A card not mentioned in the opening post is Gamble. It fetches Life (or any land for that matter) for one red mana, allowing you to start the chain as soon as turn two, contrary to Intuition. Currently, I'm thinking about combining Gamble, Life from the Loam and Unearth (for Mongrel, Witness, Lavamancer, Confidant), because I see a lot of synergy here: Gamble - with a Unearth in hand - WILL give you any creature from your deck no matter what, and repeated Loam activations will fill your graveyard with Unearth targets.


    Having said this, the biggest advantage of LftL decks seems to be recurring Wasteland, but I am still having problems with decks running nonbasics, as there aren't so many overall good lands you want to recur save for cycling lands, so you either run subpar cards (Zombie Infestation, Seismic Assault) or end up with a combo that keeps your hand full of lands but does nothing really game-altering (kind of like Land Tax). This brings me to another draw engine which might be useful for Loam: Scroll Rack. It worked with Land Tax, it could do well here. Although, you still need a way to keep those creatures at bay while you execute your card advantage plan, and Barbarian Ring or Tabernacle alone won't probably do...
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    If you were really scared of tirp, you'd side in chromatic star or sphere.

    Or just play bloody chalice, md, like you're supposed to.
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    I can't believe that 43 Lands is the best Loam based deck, considering its crappy combo match-up. But I'm also not sure what the "best Loam deck" is. I think Terrageddon variants have been the most successful overall, is this the way to go? Maybe a GRB Aggro-Loam port from Extended?
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Quote Originally Posted by Xero View Post
    I can't believe that 43 Lands is the best Loam based deck, considering its crappy combo match-up. But I'm also not sure what the "best Loam deck" is. I think Terrageddon variants have been the most successful overall, is this the way to go? Maybe a GRB Aggro-Loam port from Extended?
    Id go with what your refering to as the port. Sexy Rector developed a deck extremely close to the versions run in extended. Instead of using creatures as kill conditions you utilize Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Roots for card draw, mana, and surviving the early game.

    It seems to be your best bet since you run black for Duress and Therapy. The other loam variations have a bad combo matchup.
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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    I have found that Jotun Grunt is an excellent cardagainst Loam. If you have white, this should already be in your board, so what's all the hubbub?

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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    I like Aggro Dredge-a-Tog myself. It uses Loam more as utility than a crutch. The combo matchup is fairly solid, especially postboard. The Goblins matchup is solid, as well as Threshold. It's also very fun. It's just not very popular.

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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Loam decks are the control decks of Legacy. All of the versions are fundamentally identical and they all lose to combo. They lost the combo match up and they gained superiority over anything with creatures. It is a trade that was worth it.
    The deck follows the basic plan
    1. LftL and lands
    2. Disruption-Geddon, smallpox, discard, chant, solitary
    3. Win- seismic, creatures,
    In this order the deck has no way to beat a combo deck because the land advantage means nothing to an IGGy or Tide player. Against aggro this is huge due to the fact that they need to beat you before you drop things that cost mana and do stuff. Against control the LftL land plan is pure card advantage and cannot be overcome with a traditional engine.

    To gain the combo match up back you have to lose someting else...paticularly the aggro or aggro control MUs. To rearange the priorities of the deck is to alter the Arc itself. Not cool people.

    The card is designed to be a focal card of a deck because it is the Intuition/AK of this Legacy format that we play in. In the BBS lists Intuition/AK wa sthe reason the deck won it would conter some stuff...intuiton...ak....you have no hand I have 7 I win you lose. This is the same principle.
    With cards in hand and graveyard counting towards your actual hand the card advantage it provides is imense.
    In order to attack the deck you have to attack the engine that runs the deck itself. Exterpate is amazing but it does not stop the engine. It removes the key it removes the key. Graveyard hate is the simplest and most effective way to attack a loam deck. A well timed crypt can equal time walk time 2 and other hate like a jotun grunt loaming shaman or leyline can quickly spell disaster.

    Well all of that rambling really has no point except that I love the Arch and that my loam deck switches cards colors and strategies every week and every strategy is remarkably similar but has the same pitfal as the rest.

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    Re: [ATW] Life from the Loam

    Loam decks are the control decks of Legacy. All of the versions are fundamentally identical and they all lose to combo. They lost the combo match up and they gained superiority over anything with creatures. It is a trade that was worth it.
    How can you generalize all Loam decks? While I know there are many variants that do have a bad combo matchup, there are far too many applications of Loam to simply say "all Loam decks lose to combo." Maybe decks based solely around Loam have a bad combo matchup. Not all decks with Loam are based around Loam. You add some disruption (Duress, Chalice, whatever) and a clock (Terravore, Nimble Mongoose, whatever) and the deck will do well vs combo.

    Decks with Life from the Loam are not necessarily about land advantage in every application. Many times, it's their simply as as a card advantage resource... i.e Wasteland, Lonely Sanbar, etc. Loam reads 1G: Draw 3 cards, which happen to be lands. This can be transfered into many different aspects of card advantage.

    To gain the combo match up back you have to lose someting else...paticularly the aggro or aggro control MUs. To rearange the priorities of the deck is to alter the Arc itself. Not cool people.
    It's called hybridization. In gaining a stronger combo matchup, a deck doesn't necessarily weaken it's other matchups significantly. I think decks like Terravore and DAT are perfect examples of this.

    The only argument I agree with you with is your assessment of it's vulnerability to yard hate. Some decks have tools to deal with this (like Burning Wish) while other decks are not necessarily dependant on the Loam engine. Not all Loam variants use Loam as a crutch. However, graveyard hate is something that is rather effective vs most variants of Loam. This doesn't mean a Loam deck loses just because someone pops a Crypt though.

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