So, I was looking at the t8 of the Vintage in Chicago and noticed this plat angel control deck. Now, we don't have mana drain to cheat plat into play, but the interaction between pact of negation and plat is really silly, also always being able to reanimate plat without worrying about your life total is a plus over other creatures. So, I built it into a reanimater shell. Then I quickly realized that I wasn't winning games where I reanimated nonplatinum angel creatures, so I cut those too. This has left me with this:
2 [ARE] Swamp (7)
3 [R] Underground Sea
1 [ARE] Island (6)
2 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [MR] Platinum Angel
2 [US] Exhume
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [LG] Akroma, Angel of Wrath (was TFK)
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Reanimate
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [JU] Hapless Researcher (was strategic plans)
Other cards that have been more or less fine and move in and out of the deck: hapless researcher (doesn't dig far enough or find plat for you), cephalid coliseum (wasteland, although you get to thresh amazingly fast), recoup (expensive), akroma (can't use pact to protect it from StP), simic ss (sooooo slow, can't block piledriver), confidant (I'm pretty sure you can't use this guy with deep analysis, and Intuition into DA, Plat, Plat is great), tarmogoyf (sooooo good), mystical tutor (you have alot of sources of card disadvantage already, and it can't find plat).
This is hit by all sorts of graveyard hate, chalice for 1 and if platinum angel ever leaves play you probably instantly die.
On the plus side, you can't lose.
Last edited by Wobbles The Goose; 11-18-2007 at 11:16 PM.
The title of this thread is rather misleading. I was expecting this deck to run Lich effects. I'm rather disappointed.I like the reanimator idea though. I think it's probably the best alternative to Type 1 moxen and the best way to cheat it into play (without moxen). The deck looks solid nevertheless. What are you're matchup results, if any?
The first 2 are not really a factor G1, the real problem is that the deck is prone to both artifct AND creature hate, and doesn't have ways to control the early game other than force, thoughtseize and a couple cabal therapy. A rough matchup analysis would be (withut testing):Originally Posted by Wobbles The Goose
Goblins: Bad. Resolved first turn lackey or vial is GG. Uncounterability of gempalm sucks too.
UGr Thresh: Maybe even? It probably comes down to if you can manage to combo and have a counter for the time he has 2xbolt/fire
UGw Thresh: same as UGr, but they have meddling mage and stp, so it's worse.
Stax: if they manage to resolve a quick Chalice/Smokestack/Geddon+propa effect/wrath you lost otherwise you're in good shape.
Breakfast: in their favor. You have the same protection spells, but their combo is faster, they can beatdown with goyfs, they can bounce your angel.
Ichorid: Bad. they don't care about discard and counterspells and will win faster than you do.
Belcher: they're probably going to rape you with ETW.
TES: same as belcher, but with more protection.
Landstill: they play more creature hate then your reanimate spells. They also play better draw and their clock is probably faster (wtf?).
This is probably only speculation, but something to think about until someone tests that thing. However, why would you play this thing over, say, breakfast?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
You're really over valuing Pact of Negation, Balance/Top would do the same thing and not suck on its own. I'd also drop the reanimates, or at least some of the reanimates, for Show and Tell and Goblin Welder just so the deck could use other permanent based strategies.
Thirst for Knowledge is "bleh," I don't see a reason to run it when you've got Intuition and Careful Study already.
The real question with most of these is how fast you can combo. Against decks without permission it's not that hard to reanimate by turn 3. The following decks you listed have no way to deal with plat angel: belcher, tes, ichorid. Breakfast might have a few ways to bounce plat, but you've got a lot more permission then they do, especially when it comes to protecting a plat. From my experience, you really combo off very quickly while being pretty sure they don't have bounce immediately in their hand and you've got quite a bit of counterspell backup. Non-white thresh hasn't been that bad, as you get to beat down and sculpt your hand while they dig for two burn spells. Goblins is about right, but thoughtseize really helps with gempalm. An older build with researcher and akroma had a lot better time with goblins. To try that out, drop the tfk, a DA, and two intuition. TFK should probably be hapless researcher anyway. It's alot faster, but can't refill it's hand like the current build.
The name of a legacy deck misleading? Perish the thought!The title of this thread is rather misleading. I was expecting this deck to run Lich effects. I'm rather disappointed.
@breathweapon
I'm not sure about top/countebalance being entirely analogus. I love the top-balance, and I'd love to find a place for it in the main, but all told it's going to tie up at least 3 mana before it can protect the combo and it isn't fast. The thing I love about the pact is that you can reanimate the angel turn two with double counterspell back up after seeing their hand turn one. Or just rip it off the top in the late game. I'm almost certainly overvaluing the pact (it's more or less what the deck is built around), but it plays such a unique roll in the deck that I don't think it can or should be quickly replaced. On your other point, goblin welder is so much worse then the other options avalible. I probably should have posted the faster (researcher/akroma) build than this more controlling build to emphasize that the deck needs to reanimate the angel quickly so it can focus on protecting the angel through 5 turns immediately, but welder just doesn't fit either goal well and probably makes the mana base weaker against wasteland. Really, if you want to add red, I think that some sort of Gifts package for reanimate, recoup, plat, undead gladiator or recoup off intuition is a better backup plan. Show and Tell on the hand is a really cool. I was considering in for the sideboard, as an out to graveyard hate, but there are just so few permanents that a major problems that it could be worth it (humility, siege gang comander annnnnnnnd AEther spellbomb?) The real plus would be playing with good cards that don't require me to discard my hand, like ponder and brainstorm. I can definately see a more blue build with counterbal/top and show and tell
The UGr thresh match is positive?!?! Have you ever played it post=boards. You can't beat their topdecked/pondered/brainstormed Krosan Grip, and if they are running ancient grudge, good luck having enough permission to fight through their counters and flashback. Seems like an aweful matchup. Same with goblins. Thoughtseize is invalid as they can topdeck a matron, incinerator, or tinker and win.
The UGr match didn't have grudge, and I'm sure the deck can't beat that card at all. Grip is notably a problem. I haven't lost alot of matches to it, but I'm sure it's a big problem. On the plus side you don't always lose as soon as the plat dies, and in that case you can just reanimate again. This is especially true if you are running something other than reanimate to bring in plat. Or have two angels in play, which isn't that hard. Grip is brutal, but 3x isn't going to turn a matchup with a sizable game one advantage on it's head.
As I stated above, if you're expecting a goblins meta, I think you have to build the maindeck a lot more oriented towards a reanimater strategy (akroma, researcher). Then it really comes down to how much graveyard hate they have. Legacy reanimator has never had a horrible goblins match, so retooling the maindeck is probably in order to improve that.
I don't know what to cut for it, but is +4 unearth, +4 Meddling Mage, +4 Shadowmage Infiltrator Viable? I have played around with some lists for a Reanimator control, but it was for cheap control creatures/ draw creatures and Unearth only. Just a thought.
Well, as unearth can't get back plat angel, it seems like the deck you describe is a lot more like UBW fish. I think unearth even got discussed in there at some point, if you dig for it.
I've also updated the main post to the more aggressive build I referanced earlier. I still worry about show and tell, but with thoughtseize it keeps looking better and better.
Looks pretty good, I saw an oath deck that did pretty well with Angel in vintage.
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
I know the deck in Vintage and maybe this is a bad idea, but what if you took (a part) of the manabase from Wildfire. On the top of my head it was this( I changed the red mana into blue mana)
4 Saprazzan Skerry
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
x Islands
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Thran Dynamo
2 Worn Powerstone
4 Azorius Signet/Dimir Signet
4 Talisman of Progres/Dominance
Maybe you don't need all the cards, but it is something to think about. Ancient Tomb doesn't hurt after you have an Angel in play. With that you might be able to play Transmute Artifact( tutorable with Mystical Tutor or as 4 off) to get Angel in to play cheap too or just power it out quite easily. With this idea you don't need to splash and have no splash hate from Ichorid and Breakfast and don't loose to a black instant named Extirpate. With that manabase you can also play Fact or Fiction with the same ease as Brainstorm. Don't know if it worth it, but I just throw it in here.
On a sidenote, you might need something against Wipe Away. A uncounterable way to bounce an Angel is quite nasty.
BB
making the angle untargetable with (on color) diplomatic immunity, would be good...
also abunas would do the trick.
of course you can just counter WoG, and abunas can get hit by removal, so dipolamatic immunity could be quite strong.
also if you run welders DI would be nice to make sure then can keep welding...
The problem with this list is that running so many artifacts makes you unable to support FoW. I've tried many decks with this manabase and FoW and it crumbled miserably. It's a valid thought though nevertheless and worth testing.
If you like all those artifacts, take a look at this:
8 [U] Island (1)
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [R] Serendib Efreet
4 [AQ] Su-Chi
3 [MR] Cathodion
1 [SC] Shoreline Ranger
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
2 [MR] Platinum Angel
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
Just another example of where you can go with plat. 22 blue cards for force, the occasional abilty to cast both pact and angel, swords and chalice for angel protection, low cost fat.
Pact is great at protecting the otherwise terribly vunerable Transmute artifact from opposing countermagic, giving this deck outs to the otherwise problematic swarm strategies that Faerie Stompy can struggle with.
With all the tier 1 deck running graveyard effect recurs, a lot of people are SB Leyline of Void, Tormod Crypt, Planar Void and other grave removal (WW and D+T Samurai of the pale curtain, Stonecloaker, Jotun Grunt).
More... a lot of those run them main deck, because the probability to meet graveyard recur tech or ***** is greater than any none-grave dependant deck.
You should have another strat than Graveyard tech, to win g2 and g3. Or a way to protect your graveyard, or discarding effect (to shut the permanent go to RFG zone effect) loosing tempo to a tormod crypt.
Jourdelune
I don't know if there is still discussion about this deck, but this is in my opinion the version that comes as closest to the Vintage version.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Saprazzan Skerry
7 Island
3 Platimum Angel
4 Brainstorm
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Dimir Signet
4 Talisman of Dominance
The manabase is stolen as I mentioned before of Wildfire. This deck hasnīt got any problem to make 7 mana on turn 3 or 4. 22 blue spells is easily enough spells to support Force of Will. The only problem is that the amount of mana this deck plays is dead after you get an Angel out. With Fact or Fiction a smart opponent will split your counters, giving you 8 to 9 counters instead of the full 12. This might be problematic against removal heavy decks like Landstill.
BB
I must comment on any deck running Transmute Artifact as it is my favorite card EVER! I do have some concerns:
1) An uncountered Meddling Mage turn 2 naming Plat Angel = gg.
2) How is brainstorm with no shuffle effects? I have always hated seeing 2 crap cards on a storm and knowing I had no way of shuffling it away. I might suggest either Thirst for Knowledge or Mulldrifter.
3) Have you considered Coalation Relic instead of maybe either Thran Dynamo or the Signet?
4) Like you stated, you have all this mana and nothing to do with it. Might I suggest a single Memnarch to fetch as I had mighty fun with it at the few T1 tournies I played at. I would also like to see maybe singletons of Triskelion and Sundering Titan just cause they win games.
Repulse? It's better with Tombs/Cities than Echoing Truth.
1) Against an uncountered Meddling Mage you still can use Transmute Artifact, but it isn't a solid answer. Other than that, pray that it won't happen or MD some bounce. I was thinking to play Cunning Wish too. This will solve Meddling Mage and you can fetch a Stroke of Genius from your SB to draw out an opponent or draw some more cards for yourself.
2) Brainstorm is decent without shuffle effects, it still digs three cards deep, if you want to find a counter, Angel or mana, give some protection against discard. Just play it when you need it and not ASAP. Thirst for Knowledge is a decent option, and might even be tested over Fact or Fiction
3) Coalition Relic seems horribly slow. You play it turn 2, tap it for a counter and the next turn it only gives 2 mana. You can't stack up counters on it so it just gives 1 mana this turn or 2 the second, seems not like a good option.
4) Memnarch is a nice option as 1-off. Can be tutored for and 7 mana a turn for taking control of a card isn't that hard for this deck. The only reason not to play it is that it might be a win more. Trike and Sundering Titan seem kinda weak if I have no other option to take further advantage of it( in other words no Welder). Another card that could be tested would be Slaver... should be fun to take a turn of a TES player and Plunge him to zero or Diminishing all his win cons from his deck.
I wasn't really working on this deck, I just threw it together for fun and it didn't do bad, I though maybe you guys were intresting. If I have some time this week I will test some suggestions though.
BB
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