When you have to redesign your deck to fit a situational counter into it, then you know your not doing very well.Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
TES is a good deck without changing to fit a bad card into it.
RTFP,
I'm not suggesting TES be redesigned to use Pact of Negation, but rather testing Pact of Negation in TES to understand the reason it doesn't work and then designing another Tendrils deck to use it after those lessons are learned.
It's not hard to build a Tendrils deck around Pact of Negation, it just requires some critical thinking.
First off swarm doesn`t really protect ETW any better than pact can because ETW isn`t really any good after turn 1. You can use it after turn 1 but by then its just a slower tendrils of agony.
The multiple disruption argument doesn`t hold any water either. If my opponent has double stifle then they can stifle swarms ability and screw you over with the second stifle. If my opponent has double counterspell then why wouldn`t they counter swarm? Chances are if they have two counters or more in the first few turns then they most likely had it when swarm was played in the first place. Also, I have heard time and time again that this deck usually goes off turns 2-3 which means two pieces of disruption are probably the most you will encounter if you are going off on time. Not to mention that any removal spell in the format can get rid of swarm easily i.e STP etc. The only really strong point I heard for keeping swarm over pact is that you use LED when going off. This makes sense and it could be a big enough issue to not include pact but you must concede that a 0cc counterspell is something that should at the very least be looked into.
I also wanted to talk a little about pact of summoning. I know many people are wary of changing the deck to try new things but could we at least try tinder wall and/or spirit guide? It seems to me that if you played pact of summoning to get spirit guide it would be like getting the storm for ESG and if we used both then we could pact twice and get 2 free red mana. I know this would mean major retooling to the deck or maybe even a new deck but it may be for the better. I just don`t want to say something doesn`t work without trying it
To not thirst for power is to be at the mercy of those that do
Now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak, I've been playing MD Orim's Chants for about a month. I've never been so satisfied with a protection spell other than Xantid. I've been playing 2 over a Plunge into Darkness and a Cabal Ritual, yes that's right, six maindeck protection spells. Ever since I've done this my aggro control match-up and control match-ups have greatly improved, along with the combo mirror.
Orim's Chant is everything that Pact of Negation want's to be but has better synergy with the deck and improves problematic match-ups. Now if you'd like to go back to your conversation feel free but I'd appreciate it if you'd all test the great change that I made to the deck. A few of you figured out the change weeks after mine on your own such as Outside Angel. I'd like to hear responses.
Have you been drinking? If I weren't so lazy, I'd go through the thread and dig up your post where lamented that somebody leaked it and admitted to playing them.
Also, having these changes the boarding plan a bit, I'd reckon. What do you cut for the two in the board when goign into a control matchup?
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
I've been playing two Chants in the Maindeck as well. I really want to squeeze a 3rd copy in the Maindeck. I suppose two works well enough though.
I think it's one of the best disruption spells we have today. I really want to see this card getting their way into more TES builds.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I came to a similar conclusion after the last thread, and I adapted Nightshade81's suggestions to NQL; it's still in testing, but I'm at the point where I believe that Orim's Chant > Xantid Swarm, Mystical Tutor > Plunge into Darkness and SB Force of Will > Shattering Spree.
It isn't TES, but it's 99% of what I learned from TES, so I'm starting another thread for it.
Curse you Bryant, and your psychically stealing my tech. (or maybe I psychically stole your tech!) I actually testing a lot with Orim's Chant when the deck was first posted waaay back when. I never actually took them to a tournament, but that was only because I don't own any. :( At one point I was actually testing all four Chants and zero Swarms. It was going to be my secret tech for Colombus, too.
Anyway, Chant is real freakin' good, for a variety of reasons. First, it's not vulnerable to StP or Bolt or whatever, so a lot of times it can actually be better against Gro. Also, the deck just sometimes wants more protection (like in the aforementioned Gro matchup) than 4 Swarm can provide, and unlike Duress, Chant is actually good with IGG. It also makes your combo mirror slightly better, since you actually have some relevant disruption against decks like Belcher and IGGY. Finally, it can be not-as-useless as Swarm is vs. aggro and black disruption decks, since it effectively buys you a free turn, which I like a lot.
Personally, I've really liked a 3-2 split on Swarm-Chant, though I'm probably also going to up it to either 4-2 or 3-3, probably cutting a Plunge for one.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
wow, i have been Chanting ever since i saw this deck too...
Chant is amazing in the deck, and i'm trying to find room for 3, maybe cutting a swarm?
the point is, drawing a xantid off a returns < drawing a chant.
also chant is a 1 mana storm spell, so thats also pretty good...
Chant is very good, and i think a 3/3 split is better than a 4/2 split, but i have the 4 swarm, and the $$$ of chants is keeping it 4/2 for now...
Last edited by APriestOfGix; 04-30-2007 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Fix spelling errors :P
I like the inclusiion of Chant... I like it so much that I've cut the Cabal Rituals completely and the Tomb of Urami to fit in a full set of them.
I find them really useful, not just to protect the turn that you combo off, but also to protect Goblin tokens from a Pyroclasm/Plague for a turn or to pseudo-Time Walk... I personally love casting it after an opponent casts Dark Ritual.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
I just posted my current decklist on my first post of the thread (2nd post) and you'll see 3 chants MD. I've decided it shares the same role as ETW against control and Chant doesn't lose to Pyroclasm or EE. It also stops Pyroclasm and EE from occuring. You'll also notice the SB Tranquility gone, I've decided two additional Shattering Sprees are more important because of Chalice of the Void's risein popularity.
One last ting, in the opening post by Mr. Nightmare there are new links, check them out!
I have to admit that orim`s chant would be pretty good in here in just about every match you can think of but in another way it seems kind of scary. Orims chant, if used effectively can wreck TES worse than a chalice or even trinisphere. How effective orims chant is depends on how good the thresh player is(or whatever deck is playing it). If they play it too early then TES may have time to recover and if they do it too late then they could die.
To not thirst for power is to be at the mercy of those that do
how does playing to to late, NOT kill off tes?
they can't ramp up to 10 get chanted and Tendrils ir.
so what can they do to a late game chant? NOTHING, although the 4/6/7 protection spells put a cramp in most plans to chant late comboing...
@wastedlife:
What's you reason for keeping 2 Cabal Rituals in? Since I've cut them, I've never missed them. Also, why go back down to only 1 EtW MD?
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
So......Now with Hulk Flash becoming popular how will TES deal with them? Win at instant speed protected by 8 counters......seems very hard, anyone have any idea?
I'm looking at this question from 2 different perspectives.
1) For GP Columbus
2) After GP Columbus
And here are my answers to each.
1) We don't have to. For Hulk Flash to be good, it requires 2 cards from Future Sight which isn't even legal until after GP Columbus.
2) Did you hear that we're playing Orim's Chant MD now? =P As with any matchup, it will come down to this skill of the TES pilot.
Yeah i read about the chants (sigh another 60 dollars outta my pocket) but, is that enough?
You can SB Leyline of the Void if it's a serious issue, or SB in Force of Will if you completely overhaul the MD.
@wastedlife why do u put one orim's chant in the side.......u cant grab it with B.Wish and does it really matter if u side in 1 more , i think we should but something MD for it as it is vital for u to go off agianst stuff like solidarity , thresh , and can stop hulk for a turn.
Last edited by ReAnimated; 05-05-2007 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Added more info
Wait... it does matter if you Maindeck the 4th one. Believe me, in a deck of 60m the 60th card counts. You do run 60 cards over 61 cards for a reason right? Same goes for slots, siding something out merely gives the deck an edge in the place of something else.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
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