[CaNGD - Finalist] TEC - The EPIC Control

[Nightmare]

Basically the thing I was trying to say about Jace against Thresh is you have an equal chance of milling the best 20 cards in their library as milling the worst 20 cards from their library. So saying patently that milling 20 decreases the quality of their deck in any way other then bringing them closer to death by milling just doesn't make sense. At the same time the thing I failed to see is that once you mill them 20 you have drawn 4 extra cards and they have 5 turns to deal with Jace through all your answers or death by milling ensues.
How bad is opposing Extirpate for you games 2/3 in testing.

The far greater likelihood with Jace is that you hit somewhere in the middle, milling a mix of good and bad. It's still a perfectly legitimate form of pseudo removal, as it limits their already small amount of threats to an even smaller number. As Ewokslayer said, it allows you to be much more liberal with your removal, as you can very easily strip them of threats almost, if not completely.

Extirpate is anywhere from a big deal to no big deal at all. It depends on how they use it. The threat base is pretty diverse, so it's no big deal if they snag all your Goyfs, for instance. On the other hand, it's a pain in the ass if they take Counterbalance.

[raharu]

@ crazyroundman: Yeah, not to regurgitate what I've already said, but I only stated that this deck is pretty much just Uwb control, just badassified by Nightmare. Oh well, it's still a solid deck that is quite worth developing (in some form or another. I just can't help running more black in this deck...).

Also, that was rather nice of you to lump me in with the imaginary ass-bags that were hating on Nightmare, considering that I was relatively respectful in that post and I have an admiration for Nightmare's experience and deck-building ability and whatnot.

@ Nightmare: Yes, I've read the article (well structured, by the way), and it offered little stated explination as to why you opted not to run black MD. Tarmogoyf is a valid reason, but there are other cards that would help you stabilize at roughly the same rate (Ghostly Prison, Tombstalker??) and good cards for the 3cc slot (VINDICATE!! <God, I love that card>, possibly Phyrexian Arena, possibly on an off chance Hypnotic Specter).

Even without the 4-of Ancestral Vision (I admited it's slow. I simply didn't know the tempo the deck sets and assumed it woul be rather slow, considering that it out-controls dedicated control. A valid conclusion, yes?), you still run 24 cards that do roughly jack (31 if you consider Wrath of God and Force of Will) with Counterbalance, which is why it's best in land-light decks and less so in control. I'll be the first to admit that you don't have to run 30 cards at 1cc and 20 at 2cc for it to be effective (considering what it actually does <read post #1035 from Kyachi in the Ugr thresh thread>), but more hard permission would be great in addition to FoW.

The only reason that I cut Jace in my sugestions is that I would rather have more control. Maybe there are better slots to give to some CSpells, but the first thing that I saw and didn't instantly love was Jace, so he and a COunterbalance magicly transformed into Counterspells. Really he isn't that bad, I simply have no love for Planeswalkers at any way, shape, size or color, although Jace is the best for the deck (and best of the 5 at point blank).

[Nihil Credo]

There is a sizeable difference between losing three cards from your library, and losing 20. They aren't the same at all.

No, they're the same. You only get your investment back once you deck them.

I'm not arguing that decking is bad - hell, it's a victory, how could I?. I'm arguing that a Jace activation in itself is very likely not hurting your opponent in the least.

I played 5 games last night in a brief testing session with Fakespam with the Loam deck (basically Eternal Garden) that he is working on. It uses both Intuition and Crucible/LftL in it. Jace was the best card in my deck, and every game I won (three of the five - not bad for what is probably a pretty bad matchup for most control decks) was due to me decking him with Jace, in conjunction with CounterTop negating his recursion.

See above - decking them is obviously good, but I'm not claming otherwise. I'm claiming a single Jace activation, on its own (for example, if Jace gets killed afterwards), isn't good.

Let's put it this way - if you weren't playing Jace as a win condition, and offered Fakespam to mill 20 cards for free at the start of the game, he would surely be advantaged by accepting.

Two of those decks are obvious ones where you either draw three total cards from him and let him die, or you side him out. It seems strange that you can't see the validity of drawing three cards off from him as an acceptable play.

True, it's useless to argue about milling when you don't plan on milling in the first place.

It's a non issue if you're even remotely good at this game.

Uhm, Jace you for twenty, in response Brainstorm? I don't think skill can prevent that, except insofar as it lets you resolve CounterTop first.

[raharu]

196397]The far greater likelihood with Jace is that you hit somewhere in the middle, milling a mix of good and bad. It's still a perfectly legitimate form of pseudo removal, as it limits their already small amount of threats to an even smaller number. As Ewokslayer said, it allows you to be much more liberal with your removal, as you can very easily strip them of threats almost, if not completely.[/QUOTE]

It also has a fair chance at strippong MUC of threats entirely.

So don't ramp him up. Sit on him, and go -1, -1, +2 all day long.

SHAZAM!!! And now we see how you play Jace, not always one direction, not always the other. I think that the milling argument is rather pointless, either you hit the nuts or you don't (or as previously stated <ALOT>, it has the effect of putting your opponent on a shorter clock and functions as pseudo-removal either way <which works for pretty much every other deck too and is tech as fuck**> regardless of what happens). The card draw is tech too. You still get CA from the -1, -1, +2 cycle, and it furthers the decking win. All around it's just nice. Nighamare has figured out haw to play planeswalkers (or at least Jace) everyone. Not just one part of the card, not just the other. The 'Walkers, sucky as some of them may be, have internal synergy as this discussion has found. It's a new card type, so of course it's going to take some trial and error to figure out how to play the card.

**Clarification: Psudeo removal = tech as fuck (simply because that sentence structure was slightly confusing).

[GreenOne]

196397]Nighamare has figured out haw to play planeswalkers (or at least Jace) everyone. Not just one part of the card, not just the other.

Well, I play Ajani in MWC (Rabid Wombat) and sure as hell I use all the 3 abilities! Too bad Nightmare decided to teach the world how to play the planeswalkers before I had a chance to.

[raharu]

Well, I play Ajani in MWC (Rabid Wombat) and sure as hell I use all the 3 abilities! Too bad Nightmare decided to teach the world how to play the planeswalkers before I had a chance to.

Sorry, Mr. Nightmare beat you to it.

[Lego]

I'm a bit late to the party (a new girlfriend will do that to you,) but I figured I'd join you guys anyway.

Number 1) This deck is simply amazing. I've been testing Gearhart's version and iterations thereof off and on since TMLO3. It's an incredibly strong shell, and very customizable, which, in the right hands, makes it a deck that can hack it in most any given meta, and can stick around for a long time, despite meta changes.

Number 2) Meditate actually is nuts. Yes, Gearhart is often driven by what he wants to be true, rather than by what actually is, but occasionally he turns out to be a good player (*Gasp*... I know). Don't run from testing Meditate just because Gearhart suggested it.

Number 3) Sometimes theory discussion gets a little bit ridiculous. This seems to have happened in this thread with Jace. Let's start by giving Nightmare the benefit of the doubt. Assume he's done testing, and grant that he actually believes Jace is good in the deck. Now go test for yourself, figure out why he thinks Jace is good, and decide if you agree. Personally, I haven't played Jace in the deck. But I'm certainly going to test him, and I'm not going to start that testing with the premise that he's terrible.

Man, if it didn't suck so much, I'd love a 1-of Mindslaver. GOD do I wish that card were viable in Legacy.

Don't do it man, don't do it. I know, I want it to be good, too. It's not :frown town:

[Anusien]

Is Jace enough to sit behind Standstill with? What's to stop them from running you up to 7 cards and forcing the Standstill discard? You're using Jace to get tons of cards, which means there's much less of a penalty for them to break the Standstill on your end step.

[Bryant Cook]

Is Jace enough to sit behind Standstill with? What's to stop them from running you up to 7 cards and forcing the Standstill discard? You're using Jace to get tons of cards, which means there's much less of a penalty for them to break the Standstill on your end step.

Doing this still filters chafe out of your hand, like Wrath vs. Landstill. Letting him draw cards with Jace is just one step closer to milling 20 cards.

[Tacosnape]

Number 2) Meditate actually is nuts. Yes, Gearhart is often driven by what he wants to be true, rather than by what actually is, but occasionally he turns out to be a good player (*Gasp*... I know). Don't run from testing Meditate just because Gearhart suggested it.

I third this. My metagame is incredibly heavy black and incredibly heavy control, and I've found Meditate to be worthwhile in my 4C Landstill. While I have yet to get time to test Meditate in TEC, If the metagame is similar, I can definitely see the positives.

[Bryant Cook]

I third this. My metagame is incredibly heavy black and incredibly heavy control, and I've found Meditate to be worthwhile in my 4C Landstill. While I have yet to get time to test Meditate in TEC, If the metagame is similar, I can definitely see the positives.

Nightmare played it last night, from what I saw he loved it.

[Nightmare]

Yeah, Meditate has been pretty insane. I've been testing 3 Meditate with the third Shackles, and it's been pretty solid.

[Deep6er]

You know, I feel it's appropriate to jump in with an "I told you so". Why couldn't you believe me from the beginning? When I told you about it in New York? Seriously dude, give me some credit. I've been testing the deck for a long-ass time. Also, you TOTALLY stole it from me. :)

[Nightmare]

You can say it if it makes you feel better, Dave. I'll give you credit for suggesting the card, certainly, but I'm not going to run it on blind Gearhart faith - I needed to test it first. So I did, and it's good. Actually, it doesn't even suck that bad against Goblins most of the time. Still gets sided out, but oh well.

Thirst was pretty good too, by the way. I think either is fine for that slot, but I like the raw power of Meditate.

While I'm giving credit, TeenieBopper hated Standstill before any of you guys did. He was the first person to test Thirst.

Also, I figured I'd run this out there - I ran Moat in my board this weekend, and was super impressed with it. It's like "Wall of Letting Jace Ramp" and shuts down a TON of decks almost entirely. It gets to the point where you can just protect the Moat, because people can't win through it. The best is when you run it out vs. decks running Krosan Grip, because they have to choose whether to kill it or kill Counterbalance. Good times, all around. I'm probably going to pick up at least one more to run in the SB.

[Nightmare]

First post updated.

[Kundalini]

Did you think about Rings of Brighthearth?

Artifact, 3
Whenever you play an activated ability, if it isn't a mana ability, you may pay {2}. If you do, copy that ability. You may choose new targets for the copy

I think it's still underused in legacy. Ok, let's have a look to the sheer number of cards this deck runs that can be a rings target:

Vedalken Shackles (steal 2 creatures)
Hoofprints of the stag / Pursuit of knowledge (double activation)
Jace Berelen (2 abilities/turn)
Sensei's Divining Top (double draw)
Decree of Justice (double the number of soldiers, draw two)
Academy Ruins / Tolaria West / Rishadan port (hot or not?)
Wasteland (mini-armageddon)
Cephalid Coliseum (draw 6 to feed hoofprints etc.)
Fetchlands (always good)

so... since this is a control deck... worth including (maybe a single copy of) Rings of Brighthearth? Doubling your things can be funny!

[raharu]

@ Rings of Brightearth: ^__^. That may fall under the "Danger of Cool Things" catagory, but if I was to play it in this deck, I would run 2. I'll admit, the interactions are quite insane, but they are too mana intensive to warant 3, and one of's are never a good idea (unless you run touterage, which brings up -1 CB, +1 E tutor for the miscellaneous artifacts and enchantments in the deck).

[Nightmare]

I did not think about Rings of Brighthearth, because the card is terrible and does nothing on its own. Even if it has some "cool" interactions, it's still bad.

[94teen]

In my testing with Eternal Garden, Rings has actually been pretty decent. In a deck that plays lots of singletons, like garden, it saves slots. Using what I'm familiar with as an example, in Garden, rings can be a second Maze of Ith, Cephalid Coliseum, Nomad Stadium, a draw engine with top, a win condition with Words of War/Wind/Wilding (something I've been testing). It enables a deck with enough tutoring/draw power/card selection to save space by using Rings as a second/third copy of multiple cards. So rather than playing:

2 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Maze of Ith
2 Nomad Stadium
etc

I could play
2 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nomad Stadium
etc.

and as long as I set up rings, I get multiple copies of all of them for a minimal investment. However, this only works because Eternal Garden is based on finding the singleton answers and setting up artifact recursion via Crop Rotation and Intuition, so I can see where the comparison and following analysis may not be applicable.

The major problem that I see in this deck is that, by the time you could effectively start abusing tricks with Rings, you should be winning anyway. In Eternal Garden you have stuff like Ancient Tomb + Exploration + other mana acceleration. Assuming you drop Rings turn 3, you won't actually start doing anything worthwhile with it until turn 5. So that's a waste of 2 crucial turns in any matchup where you should be focusing on not dying and taking control of the game. In the late game, you should be winning anyway. You shouldn't need Rings shenanigans to win at that point, and so it's completely win more. Granted, it could give you a huge edge in the control mirror as it has for me. It might merit sideboard space so that you can board it in for games that you expect to go long term so that you have the advantage of stronger tricks since rings generates additional effects without needing extra cards.


/rant

Random question:

Does Rings + Decree of Justice work? I think Cycling is the activated ability, and you could copy that, but I think the soldiers is a triggered ability, and so you couldn't copy it. Having checked some rulings, I'm almost certain that you can't double the number of soldiers since that's a triggered ability.


I really like this deck, and I'm looking forward to seeing where discussion takes it.

[Nightmare]

So, I took it to Running Gagg, and although I won the Berserk for doing the best with a new deck, I only went 3-3, losing twice to the new Blood Moon Thresh, and once to Di with Survival, which is to be expected. I changed my board up a bit, which I'm kinda bummed about because I expected to see some more Ichorid and Breakfast than I did. Otherwise, here's what I've been thinking:

If Blood Moon becomes an issue, and it is, then we need a white way or blue way to deal with it in the board. Now, I ran BEB this weekend, and it was fine, but it has to fight through Counterbalance, too. Often, I'd get the one blue mana source out, and then have my splashes shut off, only to lose to a Mongoose that I couldn't deal with through StP or Shackles. Now, switching the third Shackles for the third EE may fix this, but I'm not positive. Still, I think having a slot in the board that can answer resolved permanents through Blood Moon effects is a must-have. I've done some research, and here's where I am:

If we're looking for bounce, to temporarily deal with a permanent, then our best bet is probably Rushing River, as it can potentially hit two permanents. The single is easy to come by, as you should be fetching basic lands anyway.

If we're looking to destroy it outright, then we have a few options.


Abolish, while costing , has the ability to be played for free, which offsets the mana constraints for Blood Moon effects. Unfortunately, it means you must 2-for-1 yourself. I'm not a huge fan, but it's an option.


D-Blow is pretty good, actually. If it's early, it's a Disenchant that costs enough to dance around Counterbalance (potentially killing the Counterbalance). Later on, its a card advantage spell that can snipe out the Blood Moon, or another pesky permanent. The issue is, we need to have access to the white mana still, which can be a problem at times.


Blows up your own Counterbalances. I'm not into it.

The other option is Aura Flux, but that isn't good either. I think D-Blow is the go to card here, assuming you're worried about Blood Moon. It's really the only card that lets Thresh into the game with you at all, so its up to you, if you want to find the room or not.