[Brainstorming] Using Hellkite Overlord

[MTG Guru]

$30 isn't a bad price at all if you consider what it would cost to buy them on the secondary market at current prices. Though I think the real price was like $35. I'm sure SCG and Coolstuffinc. will undercut by the standard 25% off list though.



Which is why Bogardan Hellkite is the best dragon ever: even if it gets swords'd on the spot, it still does five damage. That's why it's the linchpin of the reanimator deck, which is way more consistent than dragonstorm will ever be (heck, the list below doesn't have draw or tutors, even crappy ones like Grozoth: what happens when your Dstorms get shuffled to the lower half of your deck, which can happen fairly easily if you're not cheat-shuffling?). Or more consistent than Buried Alive + Living End.

After all, reanimator can work just fine on two mana in play and have a dragon in play by turn two. Which is why Hellkite Overlord will probably only see play in that deck, and probably only in a thresh-deprived meta (as SSS resiliance is too much to pass up vs. decks with white).

The list doesn't need draw. I play 12 Duress effects and sculpt my hand while obliterating my opponent's hand. If you think it needs more draw, what would you cut and what do you suggest?

Brimstone makes storm of 3 lethal. Hellkite does not.

@Raharu - Yes. that is why I prefer Brimstone Dragon, which I also stated myself numerous times in this thread.

EDIT: if Hellkite Overlord is a mythic rare, we're all in trouble...

[raharu]

Actually, storm count=2 + Dragonstorm does it. Find a way to make the mana to cast Dragonstorm with storm count = 2 and then you have an argument (hint: you can't. well, you can it's just very unlikely). Otherwise you're trading 1 extra slot in your deck for an inferior win con.

Is that to say that Bogardan is inferior or that Brimstone is?

EDIT: if Hellkite Overlord is a mythic rare, we're all in trouble...

How so?

Also, why don't you play Rite of Flame?

[MTG Guru]

How so?

Between casual and competitive players alike, the card should be pretty hard to get ahold of, if mythic. I'm talking pricewise.

Also, why don't you play Rite of Flame?

No room. Rite being inferior to both Dark Ritual and Seething Song, I can't really cut anything for it. I think I tested it at some point and it got the axe, eventually.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Is that to say that Bogardan is inferior or that Brimstone is?

Bogardan>Brimstone. Sorry for the ambiguity.

[MTG Guru]

Bogardan>Brimstone. Sorry for the ambiguity.

Bogardan Hellkite might be better, but 4 Hellkites just isn't enough. In most cases you would probably need to hardcast one to get rid of opposing armies. That's why I suggest running 2 additional dragons just in case this scenario occured during gameplay.

[Roman Candle]

I've been trying to get Dragonstorm to work for a gawdawful amount of time. The best way to do it, I think, is with Quicken. That way, you can wait to combo out like Solidarity does and kill with Bogardans with lethal damage on the stack. But that still requires Storm of 3-4, and even with the spells the opponent plays on their turn, that's not easy. With Overlord, you can go endstep, Quicken, Dragonstorm and pump them for the swing on your next turn. It's still rough, but Overlord gives a huge boost to the deck.

I think the best shell for Overlord is a Truffle Shuffle build with Red over White, so that you can play Destructive Flow.

[rleader]

I'm not sure Hellkite Overlord will ever be more than a $3 card, $6 if mythic, and the price will be further dilluted by the dragon pack copies. Kokushu is worth what it is because of what it does in multiplayer. Overlord does absolutely *nothing* of that magnitude in a casual capacity. So unless it starts being played in makeshift mannequin decks after akroma of wrath rotates out, it could theoretically end up being a dollar rare like knollspine dragon. Unless a STD deck really takes advantage of haste on Overlord, it could be a pure timmy card.

I think the dragonstorm lists are stupid (stupid fun, but still stupid in a competitive sense), but if you're gonna do it, I'd probably sneak bloodmoons into the maindeck and adjust things accordingly.

Rite being inferior to both Dark Ritual and Seething Song, I can't really cut anything for it. I think I tested it at some point and it got the axe, eventually.

rite of flame is better than simian spirit guide, which doesn't count towards storm and has no additional benefit in multiple copies. What corner case makes you want ssg? Fighting daze? Lotus petal seems superior to Cantor, too: if you're using him just to flash back cabal therapy, I'm not sure he's worth it.

I play 12 Duress effects and sculpt my hand while obliterating my opponent's hand.

One for one isn't oblitteration. It's especially not oblitteration at sorcery speed.

Sculpt doesn't mean what you seem to think it means either. Sculpt means actively doing something, not sitting on your ass hoping for one of four cards out of 60 to show up.

Duress sucks once they topdeck a counterbalance as one mana spells are guaranteed countered (just flip top back to the library). And if you are 10+ turns from drawing a dragonstorm, you're not gonna race goyf.

[Illissius]

I'm telling you, if this guy sees any use it's going to be with Natural Order.

He's far less resilient as a win condition for Dragonstorm than Hellkites are. You can't Swords, Snuff, or Maze a CIP ability.

[MTG Guru]

I'm telling you, if this guy sees any use it's going to be with Natural Order.

He's far less resilient as a win condition for Dragonstorm than Hellkites are. You can't Swords, Snuff, or Maze a CIP ability.

Is there a Natural Order thread? I want to post a list I just came up with. You inspired me.

[raharu]

I'm telling you, if this guy sees any use it's going to be with Natural Order.

He's far less resilient as a win condition for Dragonstorm than Hellkites are. You can't Swords, Snuff, or Maze a CIP ability.

Can't snuff a Black creature, but I most certaintly agree that Dragonstorm isn't the shell for it. I don't think Natural Order is fitting either, though.

I'm thinking something like a Cloudpost-Vesuva shell, with some Birds thrown in. Something like this?:

Cloudpost x4
Vesuva x4
Wooded Foothills x3
Bloodstained Mire x3
Badlands x4
Tiaga x4

Birds of Paradise x4

with 34 open slots to work with.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Just throwing this out there; Changeling Berserker is just as good as the second Bogardan Hellkite.

[rufus]

Just throwing this out there; Changeling Berserker is just as good as the second Bogardan Hellkite.

I'd say different. Hellkite is a better topdeck if you don't have anything on the board.

In addition to Natural Order, and Dragonstorm, there's also Tooth and Nail, Proteus Staff, and reanimators such as Dread Return in Ichorid combo.

[asi]

In addition to Natural Order, and Dragonstorm, there's also Tooth and Nail, Proteus Staff, and reanimators such as Dread Return in Ichorid combo.

It's also black, meaning it can be removed for Ichorid recursion, so it will probably replace Akroma in builds that run her.

[SuckerPunch]

Other than Dragon Storm and possibly Reanimator players, why are people excited about this guy?

Why would anyone ever want to waste 8 mana to hardcast him.

You realize that he is either going to be Forced, Counterspelled, or StPed every single time don't you? Talk about a tempo loss.

Really, I don't see why anyone would crap all over their manabase to support hardcasting a 8cc three color dragon that takes three turns to win the game.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It's because people like cool things. When people like something, they tend to want to make want to make a deck around it. Ergo, cool things make decks.

[SuckerPunch]

Okay, fine. I give in.

But if you want to abuse him though, port dragon storm over to legacy. Yes I know that plenty of others said this too. Who cares if Bogardan is better.

Legacy has enough accleration to support dragon storm, and storm gets around FoW, and StP can only take out one of these guys, not four of them, so it would actually be a viable win condition.


P.S: I don't know if people said this already. But no, it is NOT a mythic rare. From my understanding, all the mythic rares have a purple rhombus instead of the set symbol. This card doesn't as you can see from the art.

[Nihil Credo]

Legacy has enough accleration to support dragon storm, and storm gets around FoW

The #1 problem with classic Dragonstorm in Legacy is that this isn't actually true. It's very very difficult to assemble a turn in which you can ramp up to nine mana even after the opponent counters one of your mana acceleration pieces.

Because of that I think that, if Dragonstorm is ever to see serious play in Legacy, it will have to divorce itself from Seething Song and friends. Alternative options that don't get raped by FoW could be Spinerock Knoll in a Sligh shell, or artifact mana acceleration a la Wildfire (with Moxes, Manamorphose, or Suspend cards providing the necessary 1-2 Storm count boosts to make it worth the investment).

[Opterown]

Actually, Hellkite Overlord is a mythic rare.

from:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=8177

And it also gave us a really good opportunity to preview Shards of Alara, and Hellkite Overlord., which will be a mythic rare.

[rleader]

all the mythic rares have a purple rhombus instead of the set symbol.

And furthermore, the stupid rhombus is the shards of alara set symbol. And mythics are orange.

[SuckerPunch]

Oops, I guess I got it switched around then.

RE: Dragon Storm. I guess I'll revise my thesis to say that this card will definately not see the light of day in any competitive legacy deck for atleast a few years. :p