Up-ing Affinity: Shards Addition

[The Rack]

Most things other decks run cost that much. That list runs only 4 things that cost 1; even with three or four tops, that isn't very hot.

Well if you have a top you can always hit the 1 but what I was mainly saying is that this deck might be fit for counterbalance because of the huge range it hits. It can get just about anything in the format, and a little bit of luck never hurts either .

[4eak]

@ AngryTroll

But in the past (up until, oh, last week or so), he has seen considerable use in Affinity; hence the builds that use Dark Confidant.

The builds weren't optimized. I'm speaking of past, present and future Affinity builds: Dark Confidant was, is and always will be the wrong card for this deck. The fact that a handful of people can win with a suboptimal deck doesn't show much. Affinity continued not in virtue of Confidant, but despite him.

"In the past" is just an odd phrase to use. We can't even use tournament results for this issue. The deck is hardly played by enough good pilots to support either of our arguments about Dark Confidant. We've got an underdeveloped deck that is usually played by some newer players. I see way too many players trying to throw every random card possible in this deck, and unfortunately, even a few wrong choices ended up slipping through (a.k.a. Dark Confidant). For most, this deck just doesn't have a relevant enough "past" to consider in legacy.

In fact, I would wager that the Dark Affinity build is the best build at the moment; that may change with Master of Etherium, but if it's the best Affinity build at the moment, it certainly shouldn't be dismissed because of an untested card that seems better.

Don't worry, Dark Affinity wasn't and isn't.

Master of Etherium has been tested. It is without a doubt better than Dark Confidant in any version of Affinity. However, I'm not dismissing Dark Confidant just because of the new set coming out (even if it adds more reason not to use him); I've got a lot of games logged in our database that says Dark Confidant is the wrong card for the deck.

Hmm....not always. Fling is still solid in the Dreadnaught versions. And if you are running Fling, Atog is worth running.

Dreadnought versions are running solid blue for now. Red is the wrong color for the deck, even if Flinging a Naught is awesome.

Atog is a great bluff card, and I've ran him for years, but his time is up with the coming of Shards. Playtest the new decks; I think you'll agree.

@ Dreadstill: Yuck. Seriously.

I found AFfOWnity with Dreadnaughts to be fun, but rather inconstant. However, with more blue cards to run for Force, the deck may be more consistant, and more playable

I agree with you on all points here.

I don't even like dreadstill either. But, I'll honestly admit that Dreadnought Affinity is just a poorer version of it. And, you are definitely correct, with the addition of Shards, this deck becomes a good deal stronger. Dreadstill is still a better choice than Dreadnought Affinity post-Shards.


@ Counterbalance (yeah, I'm looking at you, with your fancy Top, and...)

You belong in a deck that has Goyf and permission. Affinity's curve is all wrong, we have stronger control options, and we generally don't want the game to last long enough for you to matter. Affinity is far too aggressive for you; you don't belong in this deck.




peace,
4eak

[AngryTroll]

Master of Etherium has been tested. It is without a doubt better than Dark Confidant in any version of Affinity. However, I'm not dismissing Dark Confidant just because of the new set coming out (even if it adds more reason not to use him); I've got a lot of games logged in our database that says Dark Confidant is the wrong card for the deck.

You may indeed have many more games logged with Master of Etherium than I do; however that card has been spoiled for, oh, a few weeks or so. I am skeptical of the claim that Master of Etherium has been tested so extensively that it can be said, without any possibility of being wrong, that it is better than Dark Confidant in any version of Affinity. Again, you may have the testing to back this up, but I'd like to see a few more people come to the conclusion. If they do, well, then you were the first, by a lot.

You are also correct that a ton of different cards are considered for a spot in Affinity (cards debated in the Vial Affinity Thread: Springleaf Drum, Paradise Mantle, Vial itself, Frogmite, Somber Hoverguard, Thoughtcast, Fling, Shrapnel Blast, Force, 8 Spheres, etc etc etc). In fact, the Vial Affinity thread seems to be a compilation of 4 different color splashes; the straight aggro list, the 8 sphere list, and the blue Force lists; and lots of different opinions even within a set archetype.

A new, Blue Affinity list very well could completely replace a list with Bob in it. However, dismissing Dark Confidant as a card that does not deserve a spot in the list is at least a controversial position, and certainly not as clear cut as you describe. With Master of Etherium, of course, the point may become rather moot, but Bob certainly had a role in the lists that did see play up until now.

Finally, I certainly agree that Affinity will become a great deal stronger with Master of Etherium. The reason for the intense (and unfocused) debate about the Affinity Archetype is that most of the deck is obvious; however, there are a final few slots that are significantly weaker or un-synergistic with the rest of the deck. Cards like Force of Will, Dreadnaught, and Dark Confidant all try to fill this hole with varying success. Master of Etherium seems to fill this gap much, much better than any of the existing options, perhaps finally yielding a list that doesn't have several glaring card choices in it.

[4eak]

You are very reasonable, AngryTroll. I agree with you on almost everything you said.

I disagree with you not about whether Bob had some degree of contribution to Affinity (the card is a damn good one), but with whether it had comparative advantage over other cards that could be in its place.

I was never opposed to Bob in principle (I love the card), but from experience, I've had to take him out of the deck. Our extensive testing (and I'm talking thousands of games) did not show him to be "the one" (he is a messiah for some decks) or a card that contributed more to the deck than some other choices we tested in its place. I really do wish he filled those last few slots. In the end, I honestly don't see that the card was ever proven viable in the deck, and maybe that is due in part because the deck was never proven viable itself (a top contender) to begin with. The archetype was established, but it really didn't go anywhere (for various reasons).

I suppose we can just agree to disagree on Bob though. I am hoping, however, that we can improve the deck to the point that a few good pilots will take it for a spin and smash some face in some big tournaments.

Anyways, your knowledge about the archetype. Test the new cards; tell me us think about them. I'm honestly interested to see what you come up with.



peace,
4eak

[Mayk0l]

TSL Raffinity

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 Master of Etherium
3 Ornithopter
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault

3 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Springleaf Drum

3 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
3 Blinkmoth Nexus




This is the deck I'll be building in the near future, or something that resembles it at least. It's a standard, all-round Raffinity build that implements the two spoiled cards. The only problem I have with this version are:
- 3 Vials, I'd rather run four (perhaps cut a Glimmervoid?)
- No Enforcer, I really want them, but don't know how to cut to include. Any ideas? I know a suggestion would be to cut the Canonist to the Sb, but I want it MD because my meta has a lot of Storm-combo.

The sideboard will include Relic/Tormod's Crypt and Leyline to fight of Ichorid and yard-based decks.

Help'd be appreciated!

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

Unless i missied it i havent seen any talk about the mighty Tezzeret The Seeker.

Untapping two artifacts for a +1 ability lets you untap two lands and possibly play another spell

Searching for ANY artifact in the deck with his -X ability just seems broken to me

For his final trick Tezzeret turn all those lands, drums and other artifacts into mighty 5/5 ass stompers on the second turn he sees play

Now i say to you, Whats not to like about this guy? i think running him as a two of seems pretty strong.

[mans0011]

Unless i missied it i havent seen any talk about the mighty Tezzeret The Seeker.

Untapping two artifacts for a +1 ability lets you untap two lands and possibly play another spell

Searching for ANY artifact in the deck with his -X ability just seems broken to me

For his final trick Tezzeret turn all those lands, drums and other artifacts into mighty 5/5 ass stompers on the second turn he sees play

Now i say to you, Whats not to like about this guy? i think running him as a two of seems pretty strong.

Lightning bolt? Lightning bolt pretty much owns that. Also... it's 5 mana with Tolarian Academy anywhere in sight. /shrug. It's honestly mediocre abilities in legacy, just my opinion.

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

Lightning bolt? Lightning bolt pretty much owns that. Also... it's 5 mana with Tolarian Academy anywhere in sight. /shrug. It's honestly mediocre abilities in legacy, just my opinion.

Lightning Bolt?

If someone really wants to bolt him, let them. thats one more threat you have on the board that they didnt get rid of. I believe tezzeret is being vastly overlooked in this deck, with extensive testing tezeret could be found useful....for -0 counters you can get an artifact land every turn, thinning out the deck and drawing into more threats. He's an animal and should not be overlooked

[mans0011]

Lightning Bolt?

If someone really wants to bolt him, let them. thats one more threat you have on the board that they didnt get rid of. I believe tezzeret is being vastly overlooked in this deck, with extensive testing tezeret could be found useful....for -0 counters you can get an artifact land every turn, thinning out the deck and drawing into more threats. He's an animal and should not be overlooked

I dont' know... I'm just not feeling it. I mean, I guess under a winter orb getting out artifact lands is good. They feed ravager.... I dunno, what do you plan to do once you resolve Tezzeret? How does he untap and win (like in vintage) or win the turn you play him? 5 mana spells have got to do a lot for you to be playable.

[AngryTroll]

I disagree with you not about whether Bob had some degree of contribution to Affinity (the card is a damn good one), but with whether it had comparative advantage over other cards that could be in its place.

I was never opposed to Bob in principle (I love the card), but from experience, I've had to take him out of the deck. Our extensive testing (and I'm talking thousands of games) did not show him to be "the one" (he is a messiah for some decks) or a card that contributed more to the deck than some other choices we tested in its place. I really do wish he filled those last few slots. In the end, I honestly don't see that the card was ever proven viable in the deck, and maybe that is due in part because the deck was never proven viable itself (a top contender) to begin with. The archetype was established, but it really didn't go anywhere (for various reasons).

Aha, you hit it exactly. Those last few slots can have a lot of different things in them; from what I've played and played against, I would have gone with Bob. However, none of the options were really excellent, which is why there was no general consensus on them. You are exactly right that there really isn't a single proven list, because while the archetype is recognized as playable, no version of the deck has broken into the top tiers. While Bob isn't the card to push it up to playable (based both on your testing (which I will freely admit is much more in-depth than mine) and the fact that it hasn't placed in ages), no other card has either.

With that, I would argue that Dark Confidant is a decent option for the (pre- Master of Etherium) lists, but that there certainly are several diverse options for those slots; but with Master of Etherium, the deck finally has a list in which no cards jump out at me as significantly worse than the rest of the deck.

When Manamorphose was printed, 2 Land Belcher finally had a list in which all the cards were decent. Before Manamorphose, it had to run either Dark Ritual (and a bastardized manabase) or REB/Xantid Swarm main. With Manamorphose, the deck had a list in which all of the cards were solid. I think Master of Etherium will fulfill a similar role in Affinity; while there will still be room to play with the list, there won't be a gaping hole in the list always filled with sub-par cards. Hopefully (and unlike Belcher) this list will actually be solid enough to break into Top 8s.

[raharu]

What I'll be building towards after Shards (I have deckbuilder's ADD):

Lands: 19
3 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Darksteel Citadel
3 Glimmervoid
2 Academy Ruins

Creatures: 27
3 Ornithopter
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer

Spells: 14
4 Thoughtcast
3 Cranial Plating
3 Executioner’s Capsule
4 Springleaf Drum

Recurring removal, threats, yes plz. MD Cannonist because it's a one sided Arcane Lab, and, with recurring removal it's a sort of board hard lock (they only have one creature to cast, removal kills it, rinse, wash, repeat, hope they don't have a Tombstalker).

Nothing really special, just a few tweaks. MoE looks like it'll be an Affinity staple, and IMO Ethersworn Cannonist looks... solid. Not exactly spectacular against control, but you can stop them from developing as quickly as they might want to, and Cannonist looks good against Threshold, taking a good bit of their Tempo, even if not crippling, it'll take away a lot of their momentum.

[4eak]

@ raharu

That is an interesting list raharu.

Talk to me about Academy Ruins and especially Executioner’s Capsule in the main. How often can you get and use ruins/exec? Why do you think these are good choices over some of the more traditional cards that didn't make the list?

The list is a bit more controlling. I'm worried about ruins/exec just soaking up your draw phase while your opponent finds answers. Have you considered

Academy Ruins
+
Chromatic Star
+
Etherium Astrolabe -- 2U

Artifact
Flash
tap, B, Sacrifice an artifact: Draw a card.

(not worth considering in very aggressive versions of affinity, but it could have a place in heavy control-aggro affinity)

or

Tidehollow Strix -- UB -- 2/1
Artifact Creature - Bird
Flying, deathtouch

for a touch more board control?


Just brainstorming.


peace,
4eak

[mercenarybdu]

Etherium Astrolabe -- 2U

Artifact
Flash
tap, B, Sacrifice an artifact: Draw a card.

is no more than another Sage of Lat-Nam except you have to pay one more to play as well as pay a small cost to use the Draw ability. Although it has Flash, it is going to get real expenisve real fast in a long game.

[Mayk0l]

Raharu: Your versions seems to want to beatdown with Enforcer and MoE's, but on the other hand it has controlling elements like Academy Ruins and the Capsule. How do you like playing a mixed version like that? Especially since I really like Arcbound Worker, I'm curious how a decklist without him has been. He's two counters for Ravager.

[georgjorge]

I think both the 2/2 WB guy with the discard ability, and the UB 2/1 flyer (both artifacts) are worth a shot. I personally think that the discard guy is better maindeck than Canonist, because Canonist is only good against certain decks, while the other one always gets a card. I think the manabase can support it...if you play something like

4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of Synod
3 Glimmervoid
2 Darksteel Citadel

3 Aether Vial
4 Springleaf Drum

you get essentially 10 rainbow mana, and 4 of each color in addition.


Now for me, the hard question is whether to play white for that guy, or red for Welder as the third color. Both draw removal from the opponent, Welder allows for some really broken stuff but sometimes just lacks targets to shine.


EDIT: Or maybe the two-color requirements ARE too hard on the manabase. So my current list is

4 Seat of Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Den
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Glimmervoid

4 Ravager
4 Master of Etherium
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Ornithopter
4 Frogmite
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Goblin Welder

4 Springleaf Drum
4 Chromatic Star
3 Plating
2 Thoughtcast

...I think Star is good, fixing mana while not being card disadvantage (it also sacs to Ravager nicely). The deck plays 11 threats that MUST be handled, and if they are, four more threats in Goblin Welder, which they have to get rid of first before they can deal with Master/Ravager/Plating. So Welder takes the place of Disciple, being less aggressive but far more powerful.

Sideboard will be something like

4 Thorn
4 Needle
3 Disenchant
2 Blood Moon
2 Karmic Justice

The best thing about the deck is having a Master with Plating on it. A 16/8 beater is nothing to laugh at.

[raharu]

I think both the 2/2 WB guy with the discard ability, and the UB 2/1 flyer (both artifacts) are worth a shot. I personally think that the discard guy is better maindeck than Canonist, because Canonist is only good against certain decks, while the other one always gets a card.

Eh... the BW Mesmeric Fiend is only a little better than a Grizzly Bear, and Tidehallow Strix is really only good against agro and threshold (goddamnit, it's like super-Thornwield Archers), which don't seem like problem matches, in my experience.

@ raharu

That is an interesting list raharu.

Talk to me about Academy Ruins and especially Executioner’s Capsule in the main. How often can you get and use ruins/exec? Why do you think these are good choices over some of the more traditional cards that didn't make the list?

The list is a bit more controlling. I'm worried about ruins/exec just soaking up your draw phase while your opponent finds answers.

Well, Ruins is just something for the long game, which this list is a bit more open to. Affinity generally doesn't like a long game, but with recursion and MD Cannonists to have a chance at holding combo G1, it would seem to be a more well rounded deck.

RE Executioner's Capsule: Well, Executioner's Capsule is... removal, basicly, and at the worst it's a cheaper Etherium Sculptor without the legs for Affinity creatures. Not something Affinity has really looked at over the years, but I've always played strange builds of affinity. Second to last time I eloped the deck I had a thing for Pyrite Spellbomb recursion, sacrifice outlets + Disciple, and Slobad, Goblin Tinker as a 2 of when I knew I wouldn't see StP, etc. I feel naked without some sort of removal or counter-removal, so my artifact-stompy builds were always different from the accepted, 'agro' builds of Affinity. The time before this I was playing 4 Thoughtcast and 3 TfK, because for a while I just liked to draw cards.

Have you considered:

Academy Ruins
+
Chromatic Star
+
Etherium Astrolabe -- 2U

Artifact
Flash
tap, B, Sacrifice an artifact: Draw a card.

(not worth considering in very aggressive versions of affinity, but it could have a place in heavy control-aggro affinity)

Well, were I to run that, I think I'd rather run something like Dark Confidant or Phyrexian Arena. Tying up mana for what seems like minimal late game CA seems... icky. Kinda reminds me of my old casual Arcbound Solarion deck. rofl. It just seems... slow.

Tidehollow Strix -- UB -- 2/1
Artifact Creature - Bird
Flying, deathtouch

for a touch more board control?

Eh, I think the deck is fine without stretching the manabase for that. Honestly it's not bad, it's just not good enough. You don't see most Elves lists playing Thornwield Archer, but that doesn't mean it isn't annoying as fuck to run into the one guy that does (seriously, I swear to got I hate that card with a passion. It's a fucking nightmare for threshold, no lie). Perhaps it's a meta thing. It's not to say I don't like it (because I do), but that I don't want to because I don't see a reason to. It'd chew up agro, though. And threshold. This looks like a serious issue for threshold, if you could find a way around Counterbalance that didn't involve the sacrifice of your mother and first born child.

Just brainstorming.


peace,
4eak

Which is always fun :]

[Sanguine Voyeur]

This is the list I've been using, it's been sick. Ravager is one of the weakest cards in the deck. Holding on to situationally useless artifacts such as Ornithopters with no equipment, extra Relics, and extra Drums makes it easy to flip Erayo. Mr. Helmet makes it require little mana when you need it. Mrs. Rule of Law impedes them from messing with you when you go for it and makes a hard lock. The new artifact lord is a great beater that seals games with or without the lock.

// Lands
2 Darksteel Citadel
3 Tundra
4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Ornithopter
4 New Artifact Lord
4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
3 Rule of Law Bear
4 Helm of Awakening Man

// Spells
1 Chromatic Star
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Anti-Graveyard Relic

[Captain_Morgan]

[QUOTE=Kilz88;277091]

AfFoWinity: Using force of will obviously.
QUOTE]

To be honest, if the build is going to use MoE as a standard in the deck build I vote for it to be called this instead:

[dahcmai]

It just seems like the Helm of Awakening guy would make Counterbalance top worth playing since it turns top into a free spell. Two tops even go infinite storm which is interesting, but probably has no place.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It just seems like the Helm of Awakening guy would make Counterbalance top worth playing since it turns top into a free spell. Two tops even go infinite storm which is interesting, but probably has no place.

In my build, there is no room. I could cut Stars, Relics, and Ravagers, but that wouldn't make the deck much stronger. Relic is a stalling cantrip and Ravager, while lackluster, is still a threat. The deck uses too much of it's mana to get the best use out of Top and UU would be hard to reach for such a small effect.