[Archetype] CounterTop

[Malakai]

Maindecking bounce to deal with a card that you only have to deal with in already favorable matchups does not make sense. The cards you should be worried about against Survival Bant are Survival itself and Natural Order, if they play it. With Reanimator Iona isn't even all that scary, since they either have to name white to keep you off removal, or they name blue and you just top top top until you find your Swords.

Instead of dedicating two maindeck slots to a deck you should already be beating and a deck that is extremely underrepresented in the meta, you'd be far better served running something there to combat the tribal decks that continue to plague the archtype. I hear Control Magic is pretty good against Iona naming white.

Also, it's not as if we don't run any counterspells.

[Rico Suave]

The only reasons I play 1 Jace the Mind S. MD is because it bounces Iona and is good against control, which is present in my meta. Against bant survival and reanimator it's more a case of how not to lose than how to win, you then can choose to either play 2 bounce spells MD or 1 bounce + 1 Jace tMS - I chose the latter.

The reanimation target of choice against CB decks is Inkwell Leviathan, not Iona.

[aTn]

The reanimation target of choice against CB decks is Inkwell Leviathan, not Iona.

Personally, I don't find it that clear cut and IMO Iona fills that spot.

This is based on personnal experience vs Reanimator, on the experience of friends playing Reanimator vs. UGW CB-Top-NO and the experience of people I don't know playing Reanimator (see for example: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?16911-[Report]-I-play-Reanimator-Therefore-I-R-Winnar-2nd-out-of-106-in-Vestal).

Iona beats for 7, Inkwel beats for 7.

Iona evades (flying), Inkwel evades (islandwalk).

Iona on (W) cuts StoP, RWM and QP, meaning you're left with Goyf, Hierarch, Arbor and NO-Progenitus to win (+ Reanimator being relatively fast, it might land it's target early game).

Iona cutting win cons means its (probably 3 turn clock) is going to be hard to match.

Inkwel is shroud.

In the absence of bounce (which was game 1 for most Bant NO lists prior to last week-end), I'd favor Iona.

Malakai said: The cards you should be worried about against Survival Bant are Survival itself and Natural Order, if they play it

I think that is fairly obvious...

But having tested the MU enough to know that Iona finds a way to hit the board often enough to be annoying, I'm looking for outs.

Maindecking bounce to deal with a card that you only have to deal with in already favorable matchups does not make sense.

I don't find these match-ups all that favorable, then again, I mostly played against a very good Survival Bant player...

FYI

14th place at a StarCityGames.com $5,000 Legacy Open tournament in Indianapolis

Maindeck
1 Forest
(...)
1 Chain of Vapor
(...)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
(...)

Malakai said: Instead of dedicating two maindeck slots to a deck you should already be beating and a deck that is extremely underrepresented in the meta

atn said: bounce or maindeck Jace, the Mind Scupltor give you outs to Iona if Reanimator or Bant Survival are present in the Top8 tables in your meta

[DrHealex]

Personally, I am happy everytime an inkwell is their chosen target at me. All I have to do is natural order for emperial archangel and they are near powerless to stop me!

Iona is ALWAYS a kick in the nuts.

[Rico Suave]

I'm basing my experience off the guy who won GP Madrid. Yes, he goes for Inkwell against CB decks. Naming white with Iona shuts off StP, but it raises a lot of other complications. A lot are still able to cast things like Sower and losing Iona to Sower is failure. Having your Iona chump blocked by V.Clique or T.Predator is also failure.

Inkwell is a lot better.

Nevertheless, if nobody uses Inkwell against you then by all means count on Jace to save you against Reanimator.

[aTn]

Naming white with Iona shuts off StP, but it raises a lot of other complications. A lot are still able to cast things like Sower and losing Iona to Sower is failure. Having your Iona chump blocked by V.Clique or T.Predator is also failure.

Iona is a 7/7 flyer, the 2 x Predator + Clique play is faaaaaaaar fetched...

Are these plays occuring with significant probability game 1 ? I don't see many lists with either Sower or Clique + Predator maindeck. Maybe I'm wrong... Also, it's possible to back a Iona long enough to win (they play Fow, Thoughtseize, Bounce and tutors for all that) - see aforementioned tournament report for an example.

@ Sower of Temptation: For 2UU, I'd rather play something that gets Iona off the board and requires them two spells to get Iona back on the board (discard + reanimate); getting your Sower bounced EOT and them getting back Iona FTW is a pain; considering they effectively play 5 bounce spells maindeck this is a definite possibility - it's even uglier post-board.

The choice between Iona and Inkwell is also (obv) dependant on gamestate (in particular the Reanimator player's hand).

My point is simply that statements like "Inkwell is the reanimation target of choice against CB decks" are way too simplistic and even if they are true, they are simply a statement of wishful thinking, not actual play situations occuring 100% of the time. See aforementioned tournament report where - if I'm not mistaken - almost 100% of successfull reanimations vs. UGW CB-Top-NO were Iona (ok, that's another extreme). My tournament/playtest experience confirms that Iona is a reanimation target with a high enough probability to be annoying. Therefore, I choose to have a plan for it. The fact that Iona comes up in other decks (e.g. Bant Survival) further justifies my choice. Of course, if these MUs aren't relevant in your meta, then it's a non-issue.

Nevertheless, if nobody uses Inkwell against you then by all means count on Jace to save you against Reanimator

If you want to assume I'm a complete noob and thus change my argument to favor your sarcastic replies, go ahead, I'll stop wasting energy replying and wish you good luck with grade school. EDIT: Yeah, I know, I'm intense (sorry about that btw), too much redbull and no sex will do that to you.

If not, then cheers.

[Malakai]

Grabbing a Basilisk Collar with Trinket Mage and racing Iona has worked rather well.

[Arsenal]

It appears as though Pro-Bant CounterTop decks have completely replaced Baseruption (Gabriel Nassif's 2009 list). Is that pretty accurate?

[Aggro_zombies]

It appears as though Pro-Bant CounterTop decks have completely replaced Baseruption (Gabriel Nassif's 2009 list). Is that pretty accurate?

Basically. If you want a slower, more controlling build, you'd run something like Supreme Blue, the Japanese Counterbalance list. However, part of the reason NO Counterbalance is so popular and so strong is the ability to drop an unanswerable threat out of nowhere, whereas the slower control versions have a harder time in a format that's since adapted to the Counterbalance lock.

[chokin]

Natural Order is the closest thing to feeling like you just played an unfair Tinker. But it is a bit more difficult to cast, and the sacrifice is way more specific. The end result however is still a big unanswerable threat that ends the game very quickly. A bonus is that you can go utility in a pinch as well with Trygon Predator being able to knock out enchantments or artifacts that stand in your way. Why play fair?

[Atog]

I played yesterday in +30 person tournament with no-prog bant and finished 3rd. Could be better but what you can make. I played against these:

R1 ug-merfolks 2-0
R2 Aggro Loam 2-0
R3 Leyline of the Void / Helm of Obedience combo (B-G) 2-0
R4 Mefolks 0-2
R5 Mirror 2-0

Against 1st round opponent trygon predator was golden. I was able to hit 2x A.vial, 1x jitte, 1x Umezawa's Jitte and 1x Standstill. Don't ask how i manage to hit standstill when trygon was on the battlefield. 4rd round merfolk was mono-u and g1 i lost on my own playmistake. I was able to attack with rhox war monk or tarmogoyf with exalted, but i played Natural order before combat and sacrificed my Noble hierarch. G2 was just a overrun. I played 1st turn Pithing needle naming "Aether Vial" and opponent played land passed. Couple turns later i can't resolve a single creature when he played couple mutavaults and standstill. I broked standstill next turn and opponent tell me later that he drew 3x Force of will.. I guess my natural order didn't get any changes to resolve :) Did i already mentioned that i drew total 2x StoP / paths in two games against both merfolks? I played this list:

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile
3 Blue elemental blast / Hydroblast

Thanks Kuma for good list! I added basic Plain to fight against wastelands and that was great addition. I was always able to fetch out basics and opponent just stare my basics when played wasteland after wasteland. After tournament i won't be sure if those Pithing needles are needed / enought good. Sure, i didn't get change to use their full value against planeswalker's example but when i played them they seemed to do nothing or opponent had always some answer to them. Example when i played against aggro loam, i had couple needles in play named "seismic assault" and "engineered explosives". Opponent then just played maestrom pulse and then it was almost over.

[BantFTW]

I want to say that you get really easy matchups but merfolks are hard...
The others are really easy for you.
How is your meta, like no aggro (zoo & gobblins)??
Because if you would play against them you would really have a hard time.

And I play some artifact/enchantments side with an enlightened tutor,
doensn't those let you win against merfolk alot of times?

[Atog]

I want to say that you get really easy matchups but merfolks are hard...
The others are really easy for you.
How is your meta, like no aggro (zoo & gobblins)??
Because if you would play against them you would really have a hard time.

And I play some artifact/enchantments side with an enlightened tutor,
doensn't those let you win against merfolk alot of times?

Easy matchups.. I guess i have to believe you.. or not. IF you get counter/top online and 2cc top of library then you have good changes against loam and suicides. That only works if you get throught their hate (maestrom pulse, relevent silence, EE, discard etc.). That said, i get counter/top online 1/4 of those games..

There were zoo and maybe one goblin player, but i don't see how zoo is bad matchup for us? Im like 10-1 against zoo but against goblins i get some problems if i won't get decent start with counters. There is 3 hydroblast / blue elemental blast for both matchups..

I play also EE in side but i don't want to cut anything for enlightened tutor, just because i think that's not better than any card in this deck ATM.

[SMR0079]

I have been playing the Pro version now for a couple of months but have been tempted to return to a more traditional or supreme version as of late becsaue Merfolk is seeing a local resurgence. I have also lost a couple matches to another Countertop player with the more tradiotinal version.

In the past I usually beat traditional countetop just by forcing through Natural Order, but players are adapting and running more 4 cc spells, Sower, JAce, and Emperess from the side. That combined with the fact that the pro version seems more sub optimal cards for the mirror, see noble, RWM, the balance seems to be tilting back toward the more traditoinal builds.

thouhgts?

[sdefreit8]

I have been playing the Pro version now for a couple of months but have been tempted to return to a more traditional or supreme version as of late becsaue Merfolk is seeing a local resurgence. I have also lost a couple matches to another Countertop player with the more tradiotinal version.

In the past I usually beat traditional countetop just by forcing through Natural Order, but players are adapting and running more 4 cc spells, Sower, JAce, and Emperess from the side. That combined with the fact that the pro version seems more sub optimal cards for the mirror, see noble, RWM, the balance seems to be tilting back toward the more traditoinal builds.

thouhgts?

I dont have much experience with this deck but have been keeping up with it and even playing it on MWS to understand how the deck plays. Idk if it is moving back to the more traditional build, but this NO PRO combo for as strong as it is will start to get weaker. You cant just start putting a 10/10 pro everything beat stick on the field and expect people to not start prepping for it. Its similar to iona. Granted she is strong has heck, but control decks like landstill are using black removal to kill her now.

I think any really strong combo or play that is used a lot is going to have answers found for it eventually. Now just because of this doesnt mean NO PRO shouldnt be played. Idk the deck well enough to give a sure fire answer to that. But Id probably guess the combo is weaker now than it was when it was first introduced.

[Shimi]

I have been playing the Pro version now for a couple of months but have been tempted to return to a more traditional or supreme version as of late becsaue Merfolk is seeing a local resurgence. I have also lost a couple matches to another Countertop player with the more tradiotinal version.

In the past I usually beat traditional countetop just by forcing through Natural Order, but players are adapting and running more 4 cc spells, Sower, JAce, and Emperess from the side. That combined with the fact that the pro version seems more sub optimal cards for the mirror, see noble, RWM, the balance seems to be tilting back toward the more traditoinal builds.

thouhgts?

I was testing 3 CounterTop Lists: SupremeBlue , UGW Coutertop , Progenitus Countertop.
SupremeBlue is best against an aggro meta( goblins , merfolks , zoo) but loses to Progenitus Countertop and has manabase fragility(bloodmoon + mass wastelands).

UGW Countertop can assemble Ctop very fast and has a best manabase stability but it has no board sweeper or gamebreaking spells(Progenitus) having a fair goblins and merfolks game but has some dificult against Zoo to hold a horde of 3/3 creatures on early 2-3 turns.It loses to Progenitus Countertop and some GWB Rock variants.

Progenitus Countertop is very interesting, it can pull out some T1 noble which helps to deal with T1 and T2 threats and helps with manabases issues but seems more unstable and more dificult to assemble fast CB lock but it has some T3-T4 wins that is devastating against other Aggro control decks and CB variants or Zoo.More about Noble , it is great as T1 drop but when you play it in T2 or T3 or drop it but lost landdrop it slows some strong plays, usually goyf stalls are not very important cause you are not taking the aggro role so you can wait with goyfs facing each other until you CB lock and StP away their block, exalted don't help against exalted creatures atacking you, swinging for 5 or 6 to take 4 or 5 is usually a bad play against goblins , merfolks , zoo , so exalted is just relevant in the aggro-control games.Also you are playing No and Progenitus and cutting some Daze , ponder or SdT so your Combo MU is worst and you "waste" some SB slots to deal with this problem.

So SupremeBlue seems better in a aggro meta , UGW seems better in a low-Progenitus meta with more aggro-control and control decks , Countertop Progenitus seems better in a meta with few Merfolks and Goblins but alot of aggro-control and Zoo decks , just keep an eye open for Black based decks which plays Edicts and Perish in SB.

My final thoughts are that: Progenitus + NO increases your good MUs win percent but lows your bad MUs win percent( merfolks and goblins) , so your paring matchs will be more relevant.And I don't think this is the way to go, for me SupremeBlue is more estable and have more fair games , the great problem is to deal with other's No + Progenitus(some 4cc spells in sb could solve?) and fix some manabases issues.

Did you guys agree with me or you have some diferent analyses or arguments? I'm open for discuss and sugestions.

[SMR0079]

If your not on the Pro plan then you need access to 4 drops. I'm currently running Sowers and a Jace with Empress coming in post sb. This has helped quite a bit. I'm not completely sold on Jace yet, as she doesn't do much for you against aggro, but is great in the control mirror.

[dan who?]

I'm not on the NOPro plan either. I talked with P-M a little while ago and got some great advice about his old Supreme Blue build. Now I currently run Sowers in the main and dropped ponders for some spell snares. I like Sower because it is a 4cc spell and it's ability to steal a creature has really helped me in some match ups. In the sideboard I have Llawan to help with Merfolk, Progenitus, Inkwell etc and it's a 4cc spell as well which helps.

[Kanabo]

Is The Countertop deck with Dark Depths still viable? I am wondering, because I would like to play it but it seems less popular.

what do you guys think about it?

[BantFTW]

It ain't bad but it's to slow I think...
If u go NOPRO, much faster and stuff so

I don't really played it much so ask other people