Quote Originally Posted by 4eak View Post
@ Kadaj

We've been over this before. Obviously my post wasn't meant for you. Argue against Brainstorm/Disk/non-permanent MUC builds until you are blue in the face. I'm a fairly competent Goblins and Thresh player and I've simply had different testing results. If your build was really that optimal, I'd hope to have seen more results for it. Your suggestions are tailored for the DtB gauntlet usually (and I appreciate that), but I think that is no longer an acceptable strategy for this deck. Again, you need to take seriously that MUC may just be a deck which only temporarily becomes viable, and is very metagame dependant (like so many other Established decks). Perhaps the deck should just stick to its strong suit, and actually be chosen when its a reasonable deck. This is a deck which targets a specific metagame, and it likely has lost its ability to have generic viability.

As for the sample size of Brainstorm, don't act like it just randomly places 'occasionally' (as you put it). It is one of the most successful cards in MUC. As the 4th most played card in those 70+ lists, from a set of lists which show historical viability of the card given a long-term evolution of the general Legacy metagame, I think you've exaggerated your argument against Brainstorm. Even if you don't think Brainstorm is optimal (by some degree), you have very little evidence to show its suboptimal by any serious margin.

If this were a combo deck, then I could more readily accept your rhetoric. Control decks are generally a bit more malleable though, and you've the wrong attitude about the nature of a role which must attempt to co-evolve with the metagame. While MUC has fairly limited options for modification (as far as control decks go), it does have some wiggle room. That freedom can be leveraged.

I'll certainly admit that deckcheck is not the only place we should consider. I think it is a good indicator of whether or not a deck is crystallized though. If you were so obviously right about MUC (which your sarcastic tone implies you think you are), I'd hope that the deck would have evolved to be your list. As it stands, I think deckcheck is a testament to the fact that you aren't obviously right. Your build perhaps might edge out other options, but not by a large and obvious margin. Clearly, there are alternatives that are tournament worthy and there are specific metagames where the alternatives are better than your list.

The reason Powder Keg is more of a tempo card than an all out board sweeper is because it is restricted in targets (not hitting enchantments or high CC cards can be a problem) and because it isn't common to sweep away multiple permanents with it (excepting tokens). Powder Keg doesn't answer high CC targets, and you might not have the time to ramp up a Powder Keg before you would die to a high cc win con. While a true board sweeper can easily generate board card advantage, Powder Keg does not do so reliably. Powder keg is a tempo-based answer, much closer to Force Spike and Echoing Truth than to a card like Disk. Sure, Keg "taps" and "destroys" like Disk, but the reasons you tap it and the times at which you do so match more closely with the other tempo options of MUC. Keg can obviously be stronger than Force Spike/Echoing Truth in a vacuum, as it is better in the late game (although even Force Spike and Echoing Truth can be used late game), but that doesn't mean it isn't fulfilling those tempo roles.
@4eak:

I suppose the bottom line for me is that I've been completely unable to replicate your success against aggro with the draw/go builds. To each his own, in the end. I've had some decent success with my own build, top 16 twice at The Mana Leak and I really don't play that much in terms of major tournaments otherwise, and while yes I have seen plenty of other MUC builds, many that include Brainstorm, Top 8 that doesn't make them the best build. Something being popular does not make it correct, and while the argument can be made that there's a reason why the aforementioned builds are more popular, I'm inclined to believe its more related to a lack of exposure than anything else. Aside from in this thread, I doubt the Brainstormless build of MUC garners much discussion elsewhere, quite possibly because it does look quite unorthodox at first glance.

And yes, it is true that MUC hasn't crystalized into a sort of accepted framework yet, despite my firm belief that it should've done so a long time ago. It's simply my experience that the so-called permenant MUC builds have a higher EV than draw/go in larger tournaments (i.e. with a more varied expected field in terms of potential archtypes).

Given the way you described Powder Keg, yes it is a tempo generator in that sense. But, unlike many of the other tempo generating options that have been pitched around this thread, Powder Keg actually removes threats. You can Echoing Truth something to gain tempo, but if its really a big enough threat (and most of the threats of that nature in Legacy are cheap enough that they will often appear in the early game) it will just come down the following turn and you'll once again have to either counter it or bounce it again. Keg, on the other hand, removes the offending card outright. This can be extremely important against stuff like a Nimble Mongoose (which you can't bounce anyway) or Aether Vial, or Dark Confidant, or Goyf, or any other litany of cards you want to get rid of and not have to contemplate again the following turn.