Because it's slow as hell. Seriously, you will never actually be in a scenario where "Dragon, go" is a viable strategy. Every single deck in Legacy has some sort of way around a token with no protection, and if you're tapping out every turn (which is what you'd have to do to make Dragon, go work) they're going to either swing through it, around it, or kill it. Oh, and there's the basic problem of scooping to Meddling Mage naming CtS, having them Extirpated, Thought Hemorrhaged, etc.Originally Posted by Tea
Prior to the M10 rules changes, I advocated just running 3 Morphling because it was by far the best overall creature available and it was faster/more versatile than CtS. Now, I think 2 Meloku and 1 other Win-Con is the way to go. Frankly, I still don't think CtS is any good. It's slow, it's cumbersome, and literally the only advantage it has over ANYTHING else is that it recurs. Whoopee? Honestly, how many of you have run into a scenario where you had all of your wincons killed by an opponent and wished "Damn, I need a CtS right now?" Because I can tell you straight up, I've never had that happen to me before, whether in testing or in a tournament.
Incidentally, a build with 4 Nev's Disk is slow as balls as well, and probably has all sorts of issues blowing up its own board control cards. Why bother making concessions to the card if it's not actually that good to begin with? It's not good against Goblins and Merfolk (Too slow, too vulnerable), and it's got similar problems against Thresh albeit it's lack of speed isn't as much of a problem there, and it's garbage against other control decks. I'm not really seeing the upside there.
In order to win the game, MUC needs a kind of “hard-lock” in the lategame. CtS is a way to create such a “hard-lock”. Another way is having locked the opponent down with a couple of Propaganda and BtB. You can rarely win the game with an overwhelming cardadvanatge, because this is difficult to achieve.
My gameplan with MUC including Disk and CtS is the following:
1. Surviving the early-game with a bunch of counters and bounce
2. Stabilizing the game with Disk and shackles
3. Creating a “hard-lock” with CtS.
Meddling mage doesn’t bother, because Disk will have destroyed him before. Extirpate may be a problem, but only a few decks run it. That’s why we run an alternate win-condition.
If the strategy of CtS is getting too vulnerable, it won’t be viable. But as long as there is not so much hate, I think it’s a strong plan.
If you don’t run Propaganda, or if you don’t play something like Turbo-MUC, I think there is no way around Nev Disk. However, I agree that Disk is a questionable strategy, because it’s very vulnerable to Krosan grip. Disk is slow, but this is why we run 14-16 counters + bounce.
I wonder if there is a MUC having a better early-game than the one with Disk, for a version without disk can’t afford running so many counterspells.
Blowing up one’s own board-control cards is only an issue, if we run Propaganda. Disk destroys everything. After Disk having wiped the board, we start from a much better position than the opponent.
"I see their moral dilemmas. I see their raw courage. I see their self-sacrifice. I see our victory." (Keep watch)
The strength of one. The courage of ten. (honor Guard)
I disagree. We don't have to rely on inevibility to win. We win based on gumming up the board, a pain in the ass creature, and a shitload of cards in hand.
I really think Vendilion Clique is one of the best if not THE best win-con MUC has to work with. You don't have to tap out to play it and it can protect itself. I would run 2 Clique and maybe 1 Meloku.
I agree with others that Call the Skybreaker is probably too slow.
I agree.
The problem with MUC is that it doesn't have a fast Wrath. Why not got UW and pick up Humility and Wrath of God?
Where have I heard this before? Oh right, it was the million other times control decks have thought sweepers, many of which were much better and faster than Disk, were actually enough to beat properly built aggro decks. Seriously, Disk is garbage against Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, and just about any well built aggro. So against what do you want it? It's cumbersome, vulnerable, and it makes you concede to not playing things like Vedalken Shackles, or at least playing them around your own Disk which doesn't exactly sound like the sex to me.
You don't beat aggro with bad sweepers. You beat them by playing good cards like Shackles, Sower, Clique, Meloku, Phling, etc, that not only serve as potential win conditions but can also help blunt an aggro decks assault in conjunction with Powder Keg and your early game counters, as opposed to Disk which just makes you tap out on turn 4 and walk into a counterspell, a removal spell, or just plain old being killed before you can use it.
And, for the record, you win more with overwhelming card advantage than anything else. That's the whole point of a control deck; having more cards in hand and better board position in the late game than anyone else. Even what you described as a soft "lock" is basically just an extension of the aforementioned card advantage. That's why you run the full 4 Facts and at least one other supplemental draw spell. You can run plenty of stuff that will allow to survive in the early game without stooping to crappy cards like Disk and relying on something as slow as CtS, which has no versatility whatsoever, to be your finisher.
Well, because the deck isn't trying to be Landstill or Ultimate Walker. MUC is basically the only semi-budget control deck. I'd bet that most people that start playing MUC plan to or end up converting it to UW(x) Landstill.
Last I checked, Back to Basics was the whole reason to play MUC. Back to Basics and a double-colored splash mean one thing: Either your manabase will suck or you'll take out your own manabase with Back to Basics. Another advantage that MUC has as a control deck in Stifle- and Wasteland-immunity would also be lost.
In case it wasn't bloody obvious to someone yet, B2B is absolutely insane in Legacy and that's the primary reason to play MUC over...anything. Being budget doesn't hurt, of course, but that's not the only reason to play MUC.
So, Disk is slow; but that’s not the important thing. The important thing is whether the deck is too slow or not. Disk allows us to run more counters and counters are good for the early game.
How do you want to handle aggro? If you run Propaganda and powder keg, you have to run a lower number of counters, for Propaganda and powder keg are good if and only if you run them together. In fact I’m not happy with Nev Disk, but I’m not happy with propaganda and powder keg, either. Do you have another idea?
"I see their moral dilemmas. I see their raw courage. I see their self-sacrifice. I see our victory." (Keep watch)
The strength of one. The courage of ten. (honor Guard)
I run Shackles, Keg, and Sower in the main. Between those, B2B, a bare minimum of 8 counters (the other 2 slots have fluctuated between Chalice in certain metagames and Spell Snare or some other variant of counterspell), you have at least a decent shot against aggro. In my tournament experience, Propaganda is much better coming out of the board when you can pick the battles you want to fight with it, as opposed to being stuck with it against Landstill if you run it in the main.
I've actually shifted the numbers around recently, I think I'd go with the following set-up:
X2 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
X2 Vendilion Clique
X2 Sower of Temptation
X4 Powder Keg
X4 Back to Basics
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Think Twice/Ancestral Vision
X3 Vedalken Shackles
X3 Spell Snare/Force Spike/Chalice of the Void/Some other Counterspell
X24 Island
Meloku, Sower and Vendillion Clique, they all die to any kind of removal. Doesn’t this bother you? However, I can see the logic behind that: If they deal with them, you trade one for one; if they don’t deal with them, you will likely win; and of course you can protect them with counterspells.
I still think Nev Disk and CtS are viable strategies, for they are simply very powerful spells. But I have to test further.
At the moment I’m trying out Telemin performance as an alternate win-condition in this build of MUC.
"I see their moral dilemmas. I see their raw courage. I see their self-sacrifice. I see our victory." (Keep watch)
The strength of one. The courage of ten. (honor Guard)
Sorry for double post, but I really have to say that.
I think Powder keg is a weak strategy. Powder keg is supposed to deal with 1cc permanents. However you have to tap out on turn 2 or on turn 3, thus allowing your opponent to drop another threat you cannot counter. Powder keg is very slow. Furthermore, Powder keg can stabilize the game as good as force spike, that is, it absolutely can’t.
I suggest running force spike, and maybe some bounce.
We definitely need a way to stabilize the game; in my opinion Nev Disk is as strong way to do this. However, I agree that there are other possibilities like Meloku, Sower, shackles.
I really like Meloku. Against aggro she can stall the game. Zoo doesn’t run any creature-removal except lightning bolt. Goblin runs warren weirding, but you can avoid warren weirding by playing meloku on turn six.
Sower of Temptation, on the other hand, dies to lightning bolt and to warren weirding.
Nevertheless, I doubt whether Meloku can stabilize the game better than Disk, for, if you compare them, they are equally vulnerable depending on the matchup.
I think you should run both.
Back to basics can’t bring you back from a bad board position. BtB’s assignment is to assure that your opponent won’t be able to recover after you have stabilized the game with shackles, disk, meloku, whatever. That being said, I think 4 BtB is too much.
"I see their moral dilemmas. I see their raw courage. I see their self-sacrifice. I see our victory." (Keep watch)
The strength of one. The courage of ten. (honor Guard)
So tapping out for Powder Keg is bad, but tapping out 2 turns later and waiting yet another turn to untap Disk that goes North Korea on your board is good?
You want to run less than 4 Back to Basics in MUC? Why even play this deck?
Oh and Zoo runs a mix of LB, CL, LH, and even FB.
You shouldn't compare powder keg with disk. They serve different roles. You should compare powder keg with force spike/bounce/counters and disk with meloku/sower/shackles, etc.So tapping out for Powder Keg is bad, but tapping out 2 turns later and waiting yet another turn to untap Disk that goes North Korea on your board is good?
So you want to say that meloku is bad, too?Oh and Zoo runs a mix of LB, CL, LH, and even FB.
"I see their moral dilemmas. I see their raw courage. I see their self-sacrifice. I see our victory." (Keep watch)
The strength of one. The courage of ten. (honor Guard)
I've argued for Disk viability for a long time. I still do. Tea is correct; Powder keg and Disk play fairly different roles. Keg forgoes power for tempo, playing much the same role of Bounce or Force Spike. Disk is a card you have build around. If you haven't built around the card, then obviously you are going to find it lackluster. Draw/Go MUC can still make use of Disk (e.g. our house's version tends to play 2-3 Echoing Truth and 4 Force Spike as the tempo slots).
So what if a handful of people here don't like it? Take this thread with a grain of salt. Not many people play this deck anymore. Half the people here argue against Brainstorm, and yet the card is seems to be successful in top8 MUC lists.
MUC is one of the few old school decks that has never really crystallized. In fact, even defining the line between MUC and Landstill has been tricky in my eyes. There is still so much card choice variance and difference in viable control strategies. Hell, StP is one of the most successful cards in MUC, and that isn't even a blue card.
You can attribute this variance to whatever you want, but I'm still very skeptical there are really such definitive builds that fringe cards like Disk can truly be ruled out.
Disk has a uniquely powerful effect, and while expensive/slow, it certainly has a benefit that scales up with that cost. I think its been a while since you hardcore control players have honestly tested the card.
Like so many of the Established Decks, we also need to own up to the fact that MUC is only viable in some metagames. Bending over backwards to answer certain decks just isn't feasible. Perhaps we need to just stick to our strong points and throw matches that aren't worth the effort. Disk is a card which exemplifies such a strategy. Those who run Disk are going to strengthen certain matches and become weaker against others, and that's okay. Going black or white against the metagame can be a very reasonable thing to do. I think Disk is a reasonable choice in metagames where MUC could be a reasonable choice.
peace,
4eak
1. It's now no longer Mono-Blue-Control.
2. Why not just go all the way and play Landstill?
I have to admit that some of what I have said before is not correct, but I think I’m about to understand the deck better and better.
On Call the Skybreaker
Actually, CtS is better to be compared with TT/FoF/BtB than with shackles, Meloku, Sower.
CtS and Meloku/Sower, all of them serve as finishers, but being a finisher is not their supreme function. CtS/FoF/TT/BtB ensure Inevitability and shackles/disk/meloku/sower ensure stability.
Kadaj, as you have stated correctly, CtS is too slow to stabilize the game. Well, if we run BtB, CtS is not needed.
On Brainstorm
Brainstorm was compared to Think Twice and Ancestral Vision. This is a mistake. AV and TT are lategame cards (Yes, TT is a lategame card), whereas Brainstorm is more of early-game card. However BS isn’t useless in the lategame and TT isn’t useless in the early-game.
If you compare BS with TT, TT is +1 CA, but if you compare 2 BS with 2 TT, TT is +2 CA.
In the lategame, this matters a lot.
Ok, I have found a good reason to run 4 BtB: Through BtB our cards which can stabilize the game can be protected more easily.
@ Kadaj
I suggest the following changes:
-4 powder keg, +4 force spike.
-2 vendilion clique, +2 mana leak. What’s the role of vendilion clique? It’s not a board-control card. As disruption and protection, mana leak seems better, especially with BtB.
-1 meloku, +1 shackles. If you play BtB followed by shackles, they will likely be able to remove only one of them. That’s why; I think vedalken shackles is better than sower of tempatation and Meloku.
"I see their moral dilemmas. I see their raw courage. I see their self-sacrifice. I see our victory." (Keep watch)
The strength of one. The courage of ten. (honor Guard)
I might agree with you if Powder Keg didn't, you know, actually kill things. And, unlike Force Spike, it's actually good in the mid to late game. I also simply don't think Draw/Go MUC is viable at all in a metagame that has any aggro present whatsoever. Before you go "test it first before commenting" I have. A lot. You can't beat a competent Goblins player, or Merfolk, or Threshold. I'm not really seeing the upside if you can't handle anything short of a control deck.
Disk has a powerful effect, yes, but it also forces you to make concessions to it by sacrificing very powerful cards like Shackles and B2B. It is, incidentally, also very very slow. Seriously. Tapping out on a turn 4 in MUC is foolish beyond reason when the card you're playing literally reads "Pay 4 mana, do nothing". Draw/Go really has no business playing that card anyway, because even with it, you still can't beat aggro!
Oh, and for the record, just because a card appears in a deck that top-8d doesn't make the card's selection correct whatsoever. It means the general core of the deck, and/or the pilot of said deck, was strong enough to win some games. Whether the card is Brainstorm, Think Twice, Disk, Shackles, Sower, or whatever, occasional success in a tournament does not validate its selection. A much larger sample size is needed.
EDIT:
Tea, Force Spike doesn't do the same thing as Keg. Keg can actually kill a threat that has already resolved, and it is not erased by your opponent simply keeping one mana available. Clique is important because it's another threat and it does act as a form of disruption that is not replicated by simply adding further counterspells. If you want to run Force Spike, just run them in that variable counterspell spot.
And no, you can't really afford to go down to 1 Meloku. You really need that threat that can just turn off an offense on turn 7/8, and Shackles isn't good as a four of against most of the field. I might lose 1 Sower for the 4th Spike, or possibly cut both Cliques and add in 1 more Shackles and one more Spike if you really don't like them, but I'll probably stick with the Cliques for the time being, they've been surprisingly helpful insofar.
I agree with this. I think Perm Based MUC is really the only MUC that is worth taking a chance with if you're going to a larger tournament. It's extremely resiliant against the aggro decks that are popular right now, and it has a chance against the control decks that are out there due to the evasive, hard to pin down creatures we generally use, on top of strong card draw and non conditional counterspells.
On Disk, if you're blowing up all of your permanents with it because you're being swarmed on turn four, something went wrong. We don't need to wipe the board of all permanents unless it consists of an Aether Vial or Nimble Mongoose, and Keg does that just fine.
@ Kadaj
We've been over this before. Obviously my post wasn't meant for you. Argue against Brainstorm/Disk/non-permanent MUC builds until you are blue in the face. I'm a fairly competent Goblins and Thresh player and I've simply had different testing results. If your build was really that optimal, I'd hope to have seen more results for it. Your suggestions are tailored for the DtB gauntlet usually (and I appreciate that), but I think that is no longer an acceptable strategy for this deck. Again, you need to take seriously that MUC may just be a deck which only temporarily becomes viable, and is very metagame dependant (like so many other Established decks). Perhaps the deck should just stick to its strong suit, and actually be chosen when its a reasonable deck. This is a deck which targets a specific metagame, and it likely has lost its ability to have generic viability.
As for the sample size of Brainstorm, don't act like it just randomly places 'occasionally' (as you put it). It is one of the most successful cards in MUC. As the 4th most played card in those 70+ lists, from a set of lists which show historical viability of the card given a long-term evolution of the general Legacy metagame, I think you've exaggerated your argument against Brainstorm. Even if you don't think Brainstorm is optimal (by some degree), you have very little evidence to show its suboptimal by any serious margin.
If this were a combo deck, then I could more readily accept your rhetoric. Control decks are generally a bit more malleable though, and you've the wrong attitude about the nature of a role which must attempt to co-evolve with the metagame. While MUC has fairly limited options for modification (as far as control decks go), it does have some wiggle room. That freedom can be leveraged.
I'll certainly admit that deckcheck is not the only place we should consider. I think it is a good indicator of whether or not a deck is crystallized though. If you were so obviously right about MUC (which your sarcastic tone implies you think you are), I'd hope that the deck would have evolved to be your list. As it stands, I think deckcheck is a testament to the fact that you aren't obviously right. Your build perhaps might edge out other options, but not by a large and obvious margin. Clearly, there are alternatives that are tournament worthy and there are specific metagames where the alternatives are better than your list.
The reason Powder Keg is more of a tempo card than an all out board sweeper is because it is restricted in targets (not hitting enchantments or high CC cards can be a problem) and because it isn't common to sweep away multiple permanents with it (excepting tokens). Powder Keg doesn't answer high CC targets, and you might not have the time to ramp up a Powder Keg before you would die to a high cc win con. While a true board sweeper can easily generate board card advantage, Powder Keg does not do so reliably. Powder keg is a tempo-based answer, much closer to Force Spike and Echoing Truth than to a card like Disk. Sure, Keg "taps" and "destroys" like Disk, but the reasons you tap it and the times at which you do so match more closely with the other tempo options of MUC. Keg can obviously be stronger than Force Spike/Echoing Truth in a vacuum, as it is better in the late game (although even Force Spike and Echoing Truth can be used late game), but that doesn't mean it isn't fulfilling those tempo roles.
@ Dembones
You are right that you shouldn't be required to have a turn 4 Disk every game. I think you've missed the fact that Disk rarely blows up your own permanents on turn 4. You aren't playing permanents very often in those first 3 turns, but also, decks that are built around Disk won't be playing as many permanents in the first place.On Disk, if you're blowing up all of your permanents with it because you're being swarmed on turn four, something went wrong. We don't need to wipe the board of all permanents unless it consists of an Aether Vial or Nimble Mongoose, and Keg does that just fine.
Disk isn't just some reset button. It is a stabilizer and a card advantage engine. One of Disks' strengths is its ability to wipe enablers and threats in the same device, almost always netting you card advantage. Cards like Aether Vial, Counterbalance, Jitte are powerful, yet individually somewhat benign, as they don't function as win conditions themselves. It is often the case that you can wait and sculpt/grow your hand until enough relevant threats and enablers are on the board that you should take advantage of the Disk. You also need to be accustomed to playing with disk. For example, players will try and slow roll you, not overextending their threats into the Disk. Depending on the threat, this plan can backfire. If my opponent resolves a creature and is beating for 1 or 2, hoping I'll disk just for that, I'm likely just to take it (unless this is Zoo) and start generating raw CA through FoF. By slowrolling, they risk letting me to get the mid and late game. If they let me get to the late game, then I usually have the advantage. Once I have the Islands to use cards like Shackles, and protect them, they are unlikely to come back. Disk functions as a Catch-22 dilemma for an opponent in that if they don't overextend into it, then they risk getting buried by the rest of my CA engines, else they'll need to drop enough threats that I'm forced to Disk and risk their own card disadvantage.
Mind you, I'm not saying Disk is the only viable option. I'm only explaining that it itself can be a viable alternative (as it can be a reasonable strategy to build and play a control deck to take maximum advantage of high-CC spells) in metagames where MUC is a viable choice (which it currently isn't in general, and can't be warped to answer the current metagame).
I happen to play Kadaj's list pretty often myself. I'm just not sold that it is the only reasonable build.
peace,
4eak
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