Quote Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus View Post
You still fail to recognise a few things:
I've never seen a list with 3 Therapies to start with. I've seen more with 4 Therapies, than with 3 Therapies though.
3 Ichorids main is the way to go in Flayer lists, for the reasons you mentioned. You don't have to play Ichorid in your board then, too.
Tormod's Crypt was imo never a relevant card against us and should not be used for reasoning, because a toddler can defeat a double crypt board with dredge.


Edit: I agree though, that it seems very danger of cool things-ish.
Still, it is a way safer and easier to assemble combo kill than FKZ, which in about 30 times I cast DR for it failed to kill 17 times. Not optimal. With Flayer my results are a bit better, fizzling the kill exactly zero times. Note both situations are when the DR SHOULD be lethal.
I'm not failing to recognize the number of Ichorids and Cabal Therapies in Dread Return/Flayer of the Hatebound lists, they are exactly 2xIchorids and 3xCabal Therapies in tournament decklists. Even if we aren't discussing tournament decklists, if you're playing with 3xDread Return and 1xFlayer of the Hatebound then you're playing without 4x relevant cards in their stead. Whether it's an Ichorid, a Cabal Therapy, a Golgari Thug, a Careful Study etc. you are losing redundancy for DDD in favor of "flashy" combo kills.

I don't think you can dismiss Tormod's Crypt as an argument against Dread Return, saying a "Toddler" can beat a Tormod's Crypt isn't a justification. Tormod's Crypt disrupts Dread Return more than it disrupts Ichorids and the utility of the Dread Return package decreases more than any other package post-board vs specific hate cards.