I agree that BUG has more redundancy, I also agree that the recruiter version requires less in your hand to win. For instance, in the BUG version you have to have: aluren+harpy+parasitic, in your hand at one time to win. Or you have to have pieces in play to help you search for the other half of your combo. Whereas the recruiter version, whichever one, you just have to have: aluren+recruiter, and you basically win. I do like the toolbox that the recruiter version allows also, that's the one thing I wish I had for the BUG version.
I'll have to pick up the pieces for the recruiter version so I can play IRL, because I've only been playing on cockatrice playtesting with a few friends so I probably don't have the best judgement on the deck yet.
Do you have a recruiter list that you'd be willing to let me look at?
Here's the one I use that I posted a couple pages back, the main board doesn't tend to change very much or often unless it's a meta call like the Minister of Pain being main board vs the side. I also don't much care for Thoughtseize as the cards you normally care about aren't creatures anyway, but counterspells and removal of various types, and I like the tutorable Mesmeric Fiend for instant hand disruption off an Aluren, or just tutor it up sometimes. Main board Rec Sage is pretty awesome against S&T, especially the Omnitell variant, and it getting pesky things like Chalice, Trinisphere, or Counterbalance can be quite nice as well. I used to play 3 Shardless Agent, but tried Leovold in those slots and never looked back. Agent is nice and all, but Leovold just holds so much more power, at least with my build.Originally Posted by MrFrowny_
Main: 60
4 Brainstorm
2 Dreamstalker
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Minister of Pain
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Aluren
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Forest
Side: 15
1 Bone Shredder
1 Duress
1 Mesmeric Fiend
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Krosan Grip
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Null Rod
1 Tsabo's Web
Cockatrice: EMFry
I add my own decklist:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Arctic Merfolk
4 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Shardless Agent
4 Aluren
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Force of Will
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
My deck is based on classic Martin Goldman-Kirst one, adapted to Recruiter of the Guard. I think that the Fry´s deck up is cool and very juicy, but I would consider Force of Will SB. Faster combo deck are pain for Aluren and FoW is very important cards. I tried Thalias and Containment Priest, it was fine, but I always return to FoW. Leovold is "must-have" in current meta, I agree with that :)
@fapsik I've skipped on the counterspells in favor of the additional discard spells from the board. I don't much like the forces removing a blue card I'd much rather be playing, and the discard helps a lot vs control decks to check if the way is clear to go for the combo win.
Cockatrice: EMFry
I agree with this. I don't think Aluren hosts counterspells well, especially force of will. I prefer the discard mode, especially Cabal Therapy.
Here's my list for your reference:
// 60 Maindeck
// 22 Creature
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Arctic Merfolk
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Quickling
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
// 5 Enchantment
4 Aluren
1 Sylvan Library
// 7 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
// 7 Instant
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
// 20 Land
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
// 15 Sideboard
// 7 Creature
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Glissa, the Traitor
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 To the Slaughter
I agree pretty much, but discard is not a full replacement of FoW. In my metagame, where there are BR Reanimator, Storm, Elves, I feel the need for free counterspell. Usually it does not matter if you pitch a blue card against Reanimator or Storm, because you still need only a creature to win (Shardless, Leovold, Strix), not the fast combo. I switch from combo win to a fair win with the possibility of Aluren win during one turn. But I think both versions have their own strenght...
I also posted this a few pages back, but here's the list that I'm on, that does run MB Force of Will. I don't think that discard is a replacement for it.
//60 Maindeck
21 Creature
2 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
2 Coiling Oracle
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dream Stalker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Parasitic Strix
2 Shardless Agent
//4 Enchantment
4 Aluren
//4 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
//10 Instant
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
//21 Land
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
//8 Creature
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Fire Imp
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Minister of Pain
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
//4 Enchantment
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
//1 Artifact
1 Null Rod
//2 Instant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Force of Will
Why are you running a Bloodbraid Elf in the sideboard?? I've never seen that before, just curious
@Ghiwo
It depends on what you mean by a real game game of magic. The BUG version runs better creatures on average, is fully capable of winning without Aluren, and routinely does so, I would expect this to happen more often with the BUG version than with Recruiter versions. As you correctly noticed I tried to play without Parasitic Strix or other wincon and did OK (5-0'd a league, and top 16'ed the legacy challenge). The interesting thing is, just resolving Aluren and having a Harpy and a value creature wins the game most of the time. Not instantly, but the card advantage generated is simply too much for most decks to handle. I am back to playing 1 Crane and 1 Parasitic now, and I think this might be the correct number of both creatures - simply because they are not essential for winning. The Vendilion Clique turned out to be very good, so I am keeping that around, alongside 2 Spellstutter Sprite (1 main, 1 sb). This gives the BUG version some much needed additional disruption.
The Recruiter versions run 1 mana discard spells, and while that is slower against very fast combo, it is excellent T1 against other fair decks compared to FoW, so that is something to keep in mind. Anyway, I think it is fair to say that the Recruiter version is better at getting Aluren on the battlefield consistently, and also more dependent on it.
The matchup between the BUG version and Sneak and Show is very interesting. They have a much better cantrip suite and will quickly sculp the perfect hand while we cast some mostly irrelevant creatures. Leovold is worth slamming down at the first opportunity - it is the only creature they care about. We have Aluren, which means that casting Show and Tell can be dangerous for them, as TTX pointed out Aluren can win first - the BUG version is fully capable of this as well. So often what you need to do is keep Aluren in hand as "insurance" against S&T - if you try to hardcast it they will often just FoW/Pierce it and win on their turn. Sneak Attack is therefore the most dangerous card they have, and for this we only have 2 Hydroblast.
Good luck with the deck, whichever version you decide on.
@Cythare Interesting list, almost a hybrid. Maybe try -1 recruiter +1 harpy? ;-)
Current list moving forward? What would you trim to make room for 1x Glint Nest Crane and 1x Parasitic Strix in the main?
When seeing your finishing lists I was indeed wondering about the Spellstutters; at first I thought it was a cool combo with Harpy, but then I realised bouncing & recasting it doesn't increase the CMC of the spells you can counter (as there'll still be only 1 Faerie, if you don't randomly have Clique out).
How does the Spellstutter Sprite usually play out? It seems like you usually would want other things to do turn 2 (play Baleful Strix or Agent, decay their chalice/counterbalance) so unless when you're playing against combo, isn't BUG Aluren usually a tap out during your own turn kind of deck? That's at least how I play it/like to play it. It can protect your combo as well while going off, but in that perspective it doesn't seem better than having a 2nd Cavern Harpy in hand to play around their disruption.
It's a hasted threat against Miracles that's hard to Counterbalance, kills Jace really well, and generates cascade value. It can't be Recruited, but it's fine as-is to increase the diversity of the threats brought in against them.
I can't say I've considered it, but I really like Recruiting for random stuff, and feel I'd miss that. I'll take it for a spin at my next weekly, though!
I do completely agree that discard doesn't equal FoW, but my list I have tried it before and was always displeased when I had to pitch something I would much rather play, though yes it did help sometimes, I've always been much more pleased with additional counterspells, I play 5 cmc1 discards, and a cmc 2, with 2 more discards in the board for the combo match ups. So yes, being on the draw and my opponent goes off on turn 1, I'm screwed, but I would be too if I didn't mull down to Force + blue card. I also play a happy little package of silver bullets in the main board which does cut down on my blue card count... I really like the package though, Random things like Rec Sage are surprisingly good. Minister does a lot of work against D&T too, along with the Young Pyro decks, and to a degree Mentor.
Cockatrice: EMFry
Coiling Oracle. Right now I play 2 Leovold, 1 Crane, 1 Parasitic, 1 Sprite, 1 Clique (22 creatures).
Yes, this is mainly for countering cc1 spells. Like Glimpse of Nature, Cabal Therapy, Pyroblast, Deathrite to name a few.
That is true in general, but it is not unusual to keep up 2 mana for a Decay or a Deathrite activation.
You're a madman, Cartesian. In a good way.
Played at my weekly Legacy tournament again, continuing to play the BUG list. I'm playing 2x Parasitic Strix, 2x Glint Crane, 2x Leovold, and 1 BOP. My maindeck is pretty standard besides that. Switched from last week to only 4 basics, removed the tribe elders, and added some fatal push to the sideboard to give me some more game versus Delver and Infect.
We went 3-0-1, splitting in round 4 with infect. I only resolved an Aluren once all night, which I used to cast a single Deathrite Shaman.
Round 1 was versus Lands Splashing blue for Tolaria West, Academy Ruins, and what I believe was 4x engineered explosives maindeck. Win game 1 on the back of Deathrite Shaman, lose game 2 to wastelands + tabernacle, and being unable to find a second fetchland or basic for 4-5 turns. Win game 3 on the back of Deathrite Shamans and Parasitric Strix beats.
Round 2 was versus Grixis Delver. Game 1 is very close, racing a true name nemesis and 2x Deathrite shamans with levold and some Parasitic Strixs in the air. Game 2 I kill Pyromancer, like 7 tokens, and a True Name Nemesis with a golgari charm and win pretty easy from there.
Round 3 was versus Miracles. Game 1 we go deathrite into parasitic strix, which go all the way as my opponent fights over some of my other spells, but fails to find a terminus to save himself. Game 2 I manage to pithing needle top, and draw 3x deathrite shamans, 2x getting swords'd immediately. My opponent eventually has to Jace bounce a parasitic strix to survive another turn, needing a blind counterbalance flip to stop my strix, but I have abrupt decay and we head home for the night.
Overall in the weekly tournament matches so far:
3-1 vs Miracles
0-1 vs Elves
2-1 vs R/G Lands
1-0 vs Infect
1-0 vs G/B Stax
2-0 vs Burn
1-0 vs Shardless
2-1 Grixis Delver
1-0 Pox
Do you mind sharing your list? I also run BUG Aluren so I'm curious to see what other people play
Sure.
Creatures 22
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Parasitic Strix
4 Cavern Harpy
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Glint-nest Crane
Enchantment 4
4 Aluren
Instant 13
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
Lands 20
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Sideboard
2 Pulse of the Murasa
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Thoughseize
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Fatal Push
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
Sword of Fire / Ice seems like an odd choice :-) in which matchup do you side it in and how/when has it performed well+badly so far?
I bring it in against Grixis Delver, U/R Delver, RUG Delver, Burn, Punishing Maverick and Jund (All of which are in my local metagame).
It's been fairly successful in the games I've brought it in. Most of the time it is just to protect my creatures from burn spells while making them into a more significant clock. Having a threat that can survive the punishing fires, lightning bolts and forked bolts has been good. I'm not sure it is better than just playing a Jitte. It's helped push damage through True Name Nemesis on a Shardless Agent once or twice, and won some games where I could not combo due to an Eidolon of the Great Revel and a Pyrostatic Pillar against burn.
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