[Primer] Nic Fit

[ShadWills]

My experience has been that with Nic Fit, or any other ramp deck for that matter, that if you don't get your mana sources you're basically not in the game. I've tried solving this for Nic Fit by attacking it from both ends. First of all, I'll continue advocating the idea of going wide, lowering your curve, and increasing card velocity. That way you can still play when you don't have mana, you just do more when you do. The other solution I've found though is to increase my ability to ramp. I don't think that 4 Veteran Explorer/4 Cabal Therapy is enough. Instead, I supplement my Explorers with Deathrite Shamans going up to 6 sources of mana (and in my SB I have another 4 sources, sometimes they swap for Vets, sometimes they just come in), and I increase the sacrifice side too. I run 1 Phyrexian Tower which adds a 5th sacrifice outlet. Additionally, I use 2-3 Crop Rotations (current MB is 2) so that I have 7 draws for a sacrifice effect. Last, I've been using Strangleroot Geist as an additional sacrifice target for the Tower. All of this combines to give me some pretty stable acceleration as long as I still keep in mind not losing to a Swords to Plowshares or a Wasteland.

Is this your GB humans list? This is the direction I am headed for this deck, going wide and using mana to increase velocity/use Top/Deeds rather than casting fatties. Also I've added more removal than my lists with larger threats. It's a little counter-intuitive coming from slamming Rhinos and Prime-Times but it's been working for me.

I see two ways to build NicFit- with cards like DRS, and also Dryad Arbor, Meren, and perhaps other crits like Bob who need to stay in play. Here you need to play many creatures with the same vulnerability to removal to overload their removal. The other way is with only value creatures so that you don't care about removal; and I have moved in this direction.

Pulse was good in its versatility. Took out anything ranging from Baleful Strix to Food Chain to Rest in Peace on the day.

Have you considered Living wish? I realize the downside is that it takes too many slots but this card has been a house for me acting as a Maelstrom pulse for 1GBB that can also win the game. I recommend starting with a tight package of Vampire Hexmage, Shriekmaw, Wasteland, and Gaea's Revenge. Also this doesn't kill Baleful Strix. but it seems like it might be awesome in a list that could play Gaea's Revenge (or ANY other fatty) for R.

Edit: I know you have considered the card,but have you recently considered it for this list?

[Memories of the Time]

Short question: someone has tested Bequeathal in an heavy-sac list, like Nyx Fit or similar?

[Brael]

One thing I've really loved about Stronghold is it's singlehanded ability to elevate the grindability of this deck. Vet and Therapy already use the grave, but not really so much that we despise grave hate. Stronghold can be your only other graveyard interaction and now your opponent feels real pressure to hate your grave or lose. Then while they're playing grave hate, just play a midrange/fatty and win.

Deathrite Shaman is really good at shutting down the Volrath's plan, so is Swords to Plowshares and Terminus. Stronghold is a good card, but most reasonable decks can interact with it, just by playing the game they're already playing.

Is this your GB humans list? This is the direction I am headed for this deck, going wide and using mana to increase velocity/use Top/Deeds rather than casting fatties. Also I've added more removal than my lists with larger threats. It's a little counter-intuitive coming from slamming Rhinos and Prime-Times but it's been working for me.

I don't really like calling it humans, because that implies humans are a part of the strategy and they aren't. A high number of them is simply because that's what our CA options are for the most part. But yes, not just my current list but several past iterations as well. The current ways I build it are just my most recent thoughts on the strategy. I've been using it for quite awhile now, one of the big things I look for are cards that are both mana sources and mana sinks. Those are really important for decks like this.

[Navsi]

Short question: someone has tested Bequeathal in an heavy-sac list, like Nyx Fit or similar?

One of the nice things about a sacrifice - heavy list like Nyx is that by holding up Phyrexian Tower, we can sacrifice creatures at any time and so dodge issues involving Swords to Plowshares. While Bequeathal is on the stack we risk those same blowouts in response in the same way as any other aura. Even 'destroy' removal does its thing to shut us down there. Also the sac-heavy lists tend to have a lot of sources of card advantage already, especially since they tend to invalidate targeted removal. We're good enough for mana that Painful Truths is probably a better option, and even that card isn't exactly an auto include.

[Memories of the Time]

One of the nice things about a sacrifice - heavy list like Nyx is that by holding up Phyrexian Tower, we can sacrifice creatures at any time and so dodge issues involving Swords to Plowshares. While Bequeathal is on the stack we risk those same blowouts in response in the same way as any other aura. Even 'destroy' removal does its thing to shut us down there. Also the sac-heavy lists tend to have a lot of sources of card advantage already, especially since they tend to invalidate targeted removal. We're good enough for mana that Painful Truths is probably a better option, and even that card isn't exactly an auto include.

Yep, it's true: Bequeathal is a cc1 anyway, and that's a huge difference with Painful in my experience: expect for fast combos, i've lost only when i wasn't able to reach 3-4 mana consistently (for example D&T could be though if they reach 2-3 ports fast). From this i've moved the question about the green ench =)

[ShadWills]

Deathrite Shaman is really good at shutting down the Volrath's plan, so is Swords to Plowshares and Terminus. Stronghold is a good card, but most reasonable decks can interact with it, just by playing the game they're already playing.

Your right. But even in light of this I've found a single Stronghold is still a worthy slot. It doesn't cost much- I feel like I often have a few "utility land" slots when building the deck- and it offers a lot of power when they don't have said cards. I used to be afraid of Plow with this deck. Nowadays it feels more like Plow just does what spot removal should usually do. It's just that most non-white removal is pretty terrible vs us.

[Memories of the Time]

If you want, there's two match with Nyx Fit against Elves with a friend of mine (in italian, sadly) https://www.twitch.tv/videos/136197153
What i've seen is that if Elves can't combo out in the first turns (like 2-3, depending on who starts) it's rather easy: in these matches we both had mulligans and for our deck that's good, especially because after Humility he has very few options available. I've made two bad mistakes in the only game i've lost, even after a mull to 5

[Bobmans]

I went 5-1 with Bobmans Jund list yesterday. I removed the Ugin in sideboard for one more Thoughtsezie and Expicate become a Feare Macbaber

The decks were 3-4 color or "punishes decks that don't have basics"

2-1 red stompy
1-2 UW Stoneblade with back to basic
2-1 Bug delver
2-1 Bug aluren
2-0 painter
2-1 4 color controll with truename

I had so much fun with this list, more then the junk version. Loved to play with AD and P.Fire again.

All five planeswalkers was amazing. Chandra ToD is really nice.

Tireless was really good in the last match. I got 8 Clues and draw cards for all of them. Couser really help him out.

I really like Damntaion and Toxic in the SB. Sideboard out Deed when meet creture only matchups.

Primevial Titan was okey. Getting lands is nice but I felt it was winmore. I would like to test with Broadmate Dragon.

10/10 would play it again

Gratz with your result. Did you play 2 SBD or you swapped those for Huntmaster/Tracker like you mentioned earlier?

[Ganfar]

Gratz with your result. Did you play 2 SBD or you swapped those for Huntmaster/Tracker like you mentioned earlier?

I had 2 SBD. They were okey, I didn't draw them against UW Stoneforge deck that I wanted it. :(

[Luthiereisfun]

I hope posting this is okay. If not, admins please feel free to delete.

I feel like my Sneak Fit play can be tighter/better. So I thought yesterday I would start recording myself and discussing my lines. I figure there are lines and other things like therapy naming that people like you guys might notice that I have not. I recorded 3 matches, one against charbelcher, the other against 12 post and then Grixis Delver.

I lost the first two videos but still had the Grixis Delver one.

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeTd...ature=youtu.be

Thanks for any help or insight guys

[Ulysse95]

I hope posting this is okay. If not, admins please feel free to delete.

I feel like my Sneak Fit play can be tighter/better. So I thought yesterday I would start recording myself and discussing my lines. I figure there are lines and other things like therapy naming that people like you guys might notice that I have not. I recorded 3 matches, one against charbelcher, the other against 12 post and then Grixis Delver.

I lost the first two videos but still had the Grixis Delver one.

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeTd...ature=youtu.be

Thanks for any help or insight guys

Hi!

I think you should have named FOW on your flashbacked therapy. Cause young pyro alone was not a big treat here and basically against us it's garbage. But loosing your Sneack should have been more painfull...

For SB, DRS are ok to remove because of his own+bolts. Titan itoo because it's heavy in mana and do not do much against grixis. I would have remove Nissa for quite the same reason. And would have put both carpet instead of drs and both toxic, because at 1 or 2 it's not too dangerous for you but do a lot. Or a ooze.

When you casted Nissa, as he kept TNN on defense and as titan is not lethal, you should have growth Nissa for one turn, then taking back and casting titan should have done the job. Then when he counter your zenith, you should have looked the 3rd card with top. Here it was vet, but tragtusk, tracker, even witness should have been lethal immeditely. Ok, you seemed to have already win at this point but... for exemple in a case with 2 less life he could have get a lethal bolt.


But for your purpose, to link the loss video should be better, no?

[Purple Blood]

Someone tell me playing a Life From the Loam, From the Ashes, and Ghost Quarter package is a bad idea. I just really like when my opponents don't get to play Magic

[Luthiereisfun]

Hi!

I think you should have named FOW on your flashbacked therapy. Cause young pyro alone was not a big treat here and basically against us it's garbage. But loosing your Sneack should have been more painfull...

For SB, DRS are ok to remove because of his own+bolts. Titan itoo because it's heavy in mana and do not do much against grixis. I would have remove Nissa for quite the same reason. And would have put both carpet instead of drs and both toxic, because at 1 or 2 it's not too dangerous for you but do a lot. Or a ooze.

When you casted Nissa, as he kept TNN on defense and as titan is not lethal, you should have growth Nissa for one turn, then taking back and casting titan should have done the job. Then when he counter your zenith, you should have looked the 3rd card with top. Here it was vet, but tragtusk, tracker, even witness should have been lethal immeditely. Ok, you seemed to have already win at this point but... for exemple in a case with 2 less life he could have get a lethal bolt.


But for your purpose, to link the loss video should be better, no?

I appreciate all the feedback and will keep that in mind for next time I play. I'm going to make more videos and definitely will post the ones I lose and try to see what I could do differently.

I only had the Grixos Delver match and even though I won, for the reasons you have stated I felt it was still worth posting and getting feedback to play tighter.

[Warden]

Someone tell me playing a Life From the Loam, From the Ashes, and Ghost Quarter package is a bad idea. I just really like when my opponents don't get to play Magic

Go bigger. Loam and 2x From the Ashes/Geddon. You don't want to pussyfoot around with 1 GQ looping if you're bringing in an LD board.

[Arianrhod]

@Luthiere:

Still name the FoW on the flashback.

Grixis is threat-dense enough that you need to be a bit more worried about being proactive and playing your own gameplan than merely trying to shut their plan down.

Pyromancer is defensible since it strips his clock basically entirely, but if he goes blue card into Gurmag Angler, for example, you're going to be in big trouble. I'd rather he have no interaction and be at the mercy of your power.

Tap better when you play Sneak. You could've played it with a red source open, to bluff having a monster.

Him probing you is greedy as fuck, holy moley. It doesn't matter if you have the monster in hand if he knows it's there or not. He needs to be worried about you having a tutor in hand to go get a big thing (which is what you had). If he Probes and sees Emrakul or Griselbrand or whatever, there's nothing he's going to do about it anyway. Very bad play on his part.

Note that you were fine anyway since you had the Deed to clean up afterward, even if he'd played correctly and held the FoW+blue.

With your list and setup, I'd have boarded as such:

-2 Deathrite
-1 Primeval
-1 Sensei's Top
-1 Nissa, Vital Force

+2 Toxic Deluge
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Carpet of Flowers

They win the Deathrite mirror, so you don't want those floating around. They also are perfectly capable of playing a game of magic under Blood Moon, it's hard, but they can do it, and Moon doesn't impact the board state. It only meaningfully does anything if the board is clear going into Moon.

Primeval is win-more here, so he can come out. Nissa is going to just get chumped forever with Young Pyro, and is also kind of win-more frankly. I like shaving a Top here because their deck is fast, and they aggressively attack your mana, which means you'll have less time to sit around topping. They also frequently will board in Null Rod (which I don't think is great, but, whatever).

Deluges are obviously insane here. Scav Ooze is great at denying Deathrites and re-gaining life later in the game once you're stable. He can also screw up their Cabal Therapies. Beyond that, you either want Carpet or Surgical. I personally prefer Carpet because I like being more proactive, but if you want to be more controlling in the matchup, Surgical is fine to bring in. It messes with their Therapies, is another way for you to get information, messes with their Deathrites, undoes Brainstorm in response to our Therapy, and stalls Gurmag Angler for at least a turn usually, sometimes two if the Surgical clips multiples of the same Fetch, two Ponders, etc.

I don't know that you can keep that hand on the draw. On the play it's great here, but on the draw it's probably too slow. I'd have a hard time mulliganing it, though, to be fair. Also: if that Nissa is either Carpet or Deluge instead of Nissa, your hand is nuts. If Nissa is Surgical you're slightly less happy, but you can attack his manabase a bit and stall his Deathrite while gaining information, which is still fine.

At the point at which the TNN happens, you're on the GSZ@1 for Vet into EoT Decay Vet, untap with Sneak + Inferno plan, which is not really where you want to be at all, but it's the best you've got available with the cards you currently have.

He Forced the Therapy because he expected you to name Force, in order to resolve something big, and he'd rather have the 1/1 Pyro token in play than have 0 cards in hand and 1 extra life (because you'd still name the Delver on the flashback).

I would've plussed Nissa for a turn and then regrow the Titan on the next turn, which is a guaranteed kill unless he draws exactly Lightning Bolt. This way, you put him to 2, but he gets to kill Nissa and you're dependant on your Top.

[Luthiereisfun]

@Luthiere:

Still name the FoW on the flashback.

Grixis is threat-dense enough that you need to be a bit more worried about being proactive and playing your own gameplan than merely trying to shut their plan down.

Pyromancer is defensible since it strips his clock basically entirely, but if he goes blue card into Gurmag Angler, for example, you're going to be in big trouble. I'd rather he have no interaction and be at the mercy of your power.

Tap better when you play Sneak. You could've played it with a red source open, to bluff having a monster.

Him probing you is greedy as fuck, holy moley. It doesn't matter if you have the monster in hand if he knows it's there or not. He needs to be worried about you having a tutor in hand to go get a big thing (which is what you had). If he Probes and sees Emrakul or Griselbrand or whatever, there's nothing he's going to do about it anyway. Very bad play on his part.

Note that you were fine anyway since you had the Deed to clean up afterward, even if he'd played correctly and held the FoW+blue.

With your list and setup, I'd have boarded as such:

-2 Deathrite
-1 Primeval
-1 Sensei's Top
-1 Nissa, Vital Force

+2 Toxic Deluge
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Carpet of Flowers

They win the Deathrite mirror, so you don't want those floating around. They also are perfectly capable of playing a game of magic under Blood Moon, it's hard, but they can do it, and Moon doesn't impact the board state. It only meaningfully does anything if the board is clear going into Moon.

Primeval is win-more here, so he can come out. Nissa is going to just get chumped forever with Young Pyro, and is also kind of win-more frankly. I like shaving a Top here because their deck is fast, and they aggressively attack your mana, which means you'll have less time to sit around topping. They also frequently will board in Null Rod (which I don't think is great, but, whatever).

Deluges are obviously insane here. Scav Ooze is great at denying Deathrites and re-gaining life later in the game once you're stable. He can also screw up their Cabal Therapies. Beyond that, you either want Carpet or Surgical. I personally prefer Carpet because I like being more proactive, but if you want to be more controlling in the matchup, Surgical is fine to bring in. It messes with their Therapies, is another way for you to get information, messes with their Deathrites, undoes Brainstorm in response to our Therapy, and stalls Gurmag Angler for at least a turn usually, sometimes two if the Surgical clips multiples of the same Fetch, two Ponders, etc.

I don't know that you can keep that hand on the draw. On the play it's great here, but on the draw it's probably too slow. I'd have a hard time mulliganing it, though, to be fair. Also: if that Nissa is either Carpet or Deluge instead of Nissa, your hand is nuts. If Nissa is Surgical you're slightly less happy, but you can attack his manabase a bit and stall his Deathrite while gaining information, which is still fine.

At the point at which the TNN happens, you're on the GSZ@1 for Vet into EoT Decay Vet, untap with Sneak + Inferno plan, which is not really where you want to be at all, but it's the best you've got available with the cards you currently have.

He Forced the Therapy because he expected you to name Force, in order to resolve something big, and he'd rather have the 1/1 Pyro token in play than have 0 cards in hand and 1 extra life (because you'd still name the Delver on the flashback).

I would've plussed Nissa for a turn and then regrow the Titan on the next turn, which is a guaranteed kill unless he draws exactly Lightning Bolt. This way, you put him to 2, but he gets to kill Nissa and you're dependant on your Top.

Thanks for the feedback. I really do appreciate the constructive criticism and what you guys are telling me helps me feel more confidant in SB and overall where you want to be with the deck.

Cheers

[Ulysse95]

@Luthiere:

Still name the FoW on the flashback.

Grixis is threat-dense enough that you need to be a bit more worried about being proactive and playing your own gameplan than merely trying to shut their plan down.

Pyromancer is defensible since it strips his clock basically entirely, but if he goes blue card into Gurmag Angler, for example, you're going to be in big trouble. I'd rather he have no interaction and be at the mercy of your power.

Tap better when you play Sneak. You could've played it with a red source open, to bluff having a monster.

Him probing you is greedy as fuck, holy moley. It doesn't matter if you have the monster in hand if he knows it's there or not. He needs to be worried about you having a tutor in hand to go get a big thing (which is what you had). If he Probes and sees Emrakul or Griselbrand or whatever, there's nothing he's going to do about it anyway. Very bad play on his part.

Note that you were fine anyway since you had the Deed to clean up afterward, even if he'd played correctly and held the FoW+blue.

With your list and setup, I'd have boarded as such:

-2 Deathrite
-1 Primeval
-1 Sensei's Top
-1 Nissa, Vital Force

+2 Toxic Deluge
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Carpet of Flowers

They win the Deathrite mirror, so you don't want those floating around. They also are perfectly capable of playing a game of magic under Blood Moon, it's hard, but they can do it, and Moon doesn't impact the board state. It only meaningfully does anything if the board is clear going into Moon.

Primeval is win-more here, so he can come out. Nissa is going to just get chumped forever with Young Pyro, and is also kind of win-more frankly. I like shaving a Top here because their deck is fast, and they aggressively attack your mana, which means you'll have less time to sit around topping. They also frequently will board in Null Rod (which I don't think is great, but, whatever).

Deluges are obviously insane here. Scav Ooze is great at denying Deathrites and re-gaining life later in the game once you're stable. He can also screw up their Cabal Therapies. Beyond that, you either want Carpet or Surgical. I personally prefer Carpet because I like being more proactive, but if you want to be more controlling in the matchup, Surgical is fine to bring in. It messes with their Therapies, is another way for you to get information, messes with their Deathrites, undoes Brainstorm in response to our Therapy, and stalls Gurmag Angler for at least a turn usually, sometimes two if the Surgical clips multiples of the same Fetch, two Ponders, etc.

I don't know that you can keep that hand on the draw. On the play it's great here, but on the draw it's probably too slow. I'd have a hard time mulliganing it, though, to be fair. Also: if that Nissa is either Carpet or Deluge instead of Nissa, your hand is nuts. If Nissa is Surgical you're slightly less happy, but you can attack his manabase a bit and stall his Deathrite while gaining information, which is still fine.

At the point at which the TNN happens, you're on the GSZ@1 for Vet into EoT Decay Vet, untap with Sneak + Inferno plan, which is not really where you want to be at all, but it's the best you've got available with the cards you currently have.

He Forced the Therapy because he expected you to name Force, in order to resolve something big, and he'd rather have the 1/1 Pyro token in play than have 0 cards in hand and 1 extra life (because you'd still name the Delver on the flashback).

I would've plussed Nissa for a turn and then regrow the Titan on the next turn, which is a guaranteed kill unless he draws exactly Lightning Bolt. This way, you put him to 2, but he gets to kill Nissa and you're dependant on your Top.

Happy to see that we have quite the same lines of play :)

[Echelon]

I was looking around the primer for a GSZ guide but I haven't found out.

My general strategy is, if I have Therapy but no VE, I GSZ turn two so I can hopefully go Therapy/VE/Therapy/two drop as my first two turns. If I already have VE then I hold GSZ until I can tutor for a bigger threat.

Which dovetails into another thing I've been thinking of: some of my worst hands involve having VE but no sac outlet and then getting stuck on three lands. Been trying to think of a suitable way to tutor a way to kill my VE. Maybe Channeler's Initiate would fit the bill? But even then its kind of late and can only be done turn three. Then again, he's probably at least an upgrade over STE even if he's a turn slower than I'd want.

Another really bad situation is having my VE swordsed. How do you guys play around this? Maybe I should be naming swords with therapy and then brainstorm on the flash back.

GSZ is very list-, MU- and situation-specific. We could go over a few cases you've encountered that you struggled with, though. As for Veteran Explorer vs. anything that runs StP/Stifle - If you have no surefire way around it, don't go for it. Period. That trigger is what probably wins you the MU so make sure you can make it count. Cabal Therapy and Phyrexian Tower (depending on what you face, obviously) are your best friends here.

I'm probably way late, but how did any testing for Eldritch Evolution go? It seems pretty sweet in a BUG shell with strix and Vet to sacrifice.

Danger Of Cool Things, unfortunately.

I tested Eldritch evolution a while and go and it mostly sucked, but tbh now it has a very powerful target that it didn't before, Leovold. Do eldritching tracker make him trigger the two landfalls from veteran? I guess no sadly.

Unfortunately, no.

I think abrupt decay is really good against food chain. Usually it leads to them to sac'ing a guy and us blowing up chain in response to them casting the next creature. I'm trying a sneak list that goes in heavy on DRS and spot removal (3 bolt, 3 abrupt decay).

I feel like most of my losses come from stumbling in the early game not establishing my mana and conversley getting run down from other decks fast starts.

The higher number of ramp and removal is to try and further my decks consistency in being able to get to our end game mana and stave off any early opponents threats, allowing us to live long enough to swing things in our favor.

I'm still running woodland bellower, prime/inferno Titans and emrakul as the main bombs. These are supplemented by 2 trackers that if need be can become the big scary monster. DRS activations and bolts can also be the "final push" .

You know what's pretty cool vs. Food Chain? Lost Legacy. As for numbers and consistency - that's the SE way!

One thing I've really loved about Stronghold is it's singlehanded ability to elevate the grindability of this deck. Vet and Therapy already use the grave, but not really so much that we despise grave hate. Stronghold can be your only other graveyard interaction and now your opponent feels real pressure to hate your grave or lose. Then while they're playing grave hate, just play a midrange/fatty and win.

I'll echo this.

Dammit people, you're going to cost me money. Lol.

Short question: someone has tested Bequeathal in an heavy-sac list, like Nyx Fit or similar?

To what end? It costs you 2 cards to draw 2. Painful Truths draws you 2/3 cards at the cost of 1. It doesn't improve any MU, it doesn't do something we need, it doesn't do something better than another card we do play already does.

I'm finally caught up, lol.

[Warden]

How has collective brutality been for folks in tournaments/testing? I can't help but feel this is meant for SE Fit due to its flexibility and value.

@Kev: I'm thinking of a modified list for you.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is there an updated nyx fit list I may use as a starting point? I will be updating it with new cards, but I do need to have most of it hammered out. The one on the front page seems dated...?

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