How are folks responding to miracles new configurations with 3-4 snapcaster and 4 REB effects in the board? I am finding this one much tougher than other forms of miracles and I haven't found a gameplan I like (combo in, combo out, forces in, forces out, sideboard mix, etc). I am toying with hydroblast and hymn at the moment, and have even considered going to green threats like garruk, huntmaster and thrun. I would appreciate some insight as to how others are approaching this matchup.
Edit: SoFaI is an option I hadn't thought about until scanning the previous few posts, though it looks like the original poster might not use it in the miracles matchup.
It's the only miracles build I've ever played Aluren against (my playgroup has been on "8-Reb Miracles" forever/didnt know it was a "new" build?), and preboard I seem very favoured and postboard seems very bad indeed.Originally Posted by limbo
The only miracles-specific card I am consistently adding to my SB is Painful Truths. Seems great but can't say much more yet except that they FOWed it all 3 times I've cast it since running it. Seems like a good addition then tho if they want to 2-for-1-counter it
Hydroblast just to stop Rebs sounded too weak and situational for me so I've always refrained from doing so. Horrible cascade target too in this MU
I've considered bringing in 1 Surgical to randomly tag a Terminus or Reb, but my miracles friends split 2/2 between their Pyro/Red blasts so that seemed shaky too.
Garruk relentless sounded okay, but I generally don't have spots for him in the SB. At 4 mana just to make tokens he seems worse than Painful Truths digging you deeper to an actual combo win and not losing to Eot Entreat after making 2-3 2/2s. His -1 seems great to tutor up missing combo pieces, but making him flip isnt easy against miracles unless you can ping a snapcaster.
He seems better agains slowt Decay decks than against miracles.
I'm currently considering NullRod for Mira/Dnt/Storm if anyone still plays that - mostly DnT/Miracles but then I probably cut Jitte, making Elves/Burn worse.
I cut Carpet for more actual business & due to impopularity of delver in Belgium, but when I ran Carpet I'd cut some Alurens for Carpets as a way to overload the board, but in a no-Carpet build I like to keep 2-ish Alurens in instead of 1
Other cards to consider: Pithing Needle (Dnt, Lands,...), Dread of Night if they run Mentor, Grafdigger's cage. Last time I beat Miracles it was with Dread + Cage on the board and them drawing into a bunch of Snapcasters/Mentors.
Another one I almost forgot: I always bring in 2 Thoughtseize. Also against DnT. 2 decks/reasons why I play it over Cabal therapy; snagging a Reb, Snapcaster,... before it blows you out is just better than 2-for-1ing with Force of will and only getting your Fow investment REBed too.
An example of how I'd board with this version (I already cut Traverse and added Peedle over Trap nr 2 but it's close enough)
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15088&d=291348&f=LE
+Pithing Needle
+Grafd Cage
+Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg (unsure about this one)
+Dread of Night
+2 Thoughtseize
+Painful Truths
If you have Carpets, adding 1-2 and cutting 1 more Aluren works too
-2 Force of Will
-2 Aluren
-1 Traverse the Ulvenwald - when replacing it with Library like I will soon, obv u dont side Library out
-1 Land (like Bayou or Trop, not a basic as I've been blown out by From the ashes once too often)
-1 Abrupt decay unless they're on 3-4 Mentor and /or dont side Counterbalance out. My playtesting group usually boards out most CB game 2 tho like against most Bug decay decks)
Sorry if there was confusion here, I mean the cantrip and predict versions that have now maxed out snapcasters and gone to 4 reb effects in the board, with 1-2 EtA as their main win con, as opposed to mentor miracles and legend miracles which have until recently been the predominant forms around me.
Thanks for your thoughts. I do like discard against them in limited amounts, but 1 for 1 often isn't enough or buys at most 1 turn of breathing room (I run 2 duress and 2 therapy in my current board). I like but don't love null rod. Turning off top is definitely good, but I don't really fear equipment from other decks and most of the miracles players I have talked to aren't too concerned about top being turned off, especially in the cantrip based versions, unless their hand and board are being pressured as well. I guess fundamentally it comes down to the fact that miracles is an answer deck, and as the deck gets more efficient it become harder, as the deck attempting to do something, to generate a question they can't answer, hence their feeling that you need multiple things to disrupt them, or even make them nervous.
Anyone else have some guidance?
Pithing needle on Sensei's Divining Top is the way to beat miracles. Without a way to filter their draws, that deck can't keep up. I normally only see them having 1-2 wear/tear, 0-1 EE, and 0-1 council's judgement to remove Pithing Needle.
My sideboard plan against miracles is normally something similar to:
-4 FoW
-2 Aluren
-1 Parasitic Strix
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Thoughtseize
In testing the match up has been very favorable for me.
Interesting to see you bring in +1 Abrupt Decay.
Do the Miracles players in your region usually keep in Counterbalance post-board? The 2 Miracles players I usually play against (=our 2 national legacy champions of the last 2 years who top 4 like 70-80% of tourneys they play in / aka they should be pretty knowledged and good players) seem to board them out, hence my plan of actually going -1 Decay in my previous post.
They board like +4 Reb, +2 W/T and maybe some other stuff for -3/4 CB -2/4(?) STP etc., don't remember exactly what.
Not sure if it's the good call, but I tend to leave in 2 FOWs against Miracles with most decks I play, so I don't die to a random EOT Entreat while I was winning the game, or to counter a Terminus when I have nothing in hand to recover. I'd rather cut 1 land since they don't run Wasteland and you're cutting some 4 mana spells/Alurens anyway.
The miracles players in my area tend to leave in counterbalance and try to overload my abrupt decay with additional targets. Monastery Mentor, Counterbalance, and Blood Moon.
Cutting a land in the match up sounds interesting. I may try out that plan this Wednesday.
Derp, I totally forgot while posting all of the above.
I also tend to cut 1-2 Deathrite Shaman in this matchup very often instead of a land (depending on the amount of sideboard cards to bring in).
He's nice against Snapcaster or as turn 1-2 ramp, but he often won't live long enough to do enough real damage to their Snapcaster targets so often it's just a mana dork (while cutting half of your 4 mana enchantments) that's a dead cascade later in the game. I prefer to keep as many creatures in that are either disruptive (Leo, Clique) or 2 for 1's, giving better value off my Shardless + Harpy engine.
Personnally I enter the 4th decay + 2 carpets, and try to go "beatdown" as primary plan
I don't think I can agree with cutting any number of Deathrites vs. Miracles. In the mid to late game he's a very real threat that they need to deal with. Dr. S + one other creature is sufficient pressure to force out a Terminus usually.
I used to play Meddling Mage in Shardless BUG before to combat combo decks. Do you guys think it's any good in Blue Aluren? Or is it just cute? The old shardless BUG builds used to have an extra land in SB for Meddling Mage.
You could run it in the white-recruiter of the guard versions for sure, but I think the BUG version is too mana hungry to splash for a 4th color.
I played Blue Aluren the first time last weekend in my local shop. I ended with a 2-2 record. Wins were from RUG lands and DNT. Both loses were from big eldrazi. Not sure if it's correct to remove the agents and put in some thoughtseizes in this match up since I don't think I can outgrind them. I think we are too slow to beat them using the fair way, but an early TKS and Wurmcoil could be a beating.
Credit to Cartesian's idea of having another disruptive element to the deck in playing the Spellstutter Sprites, so I tried them out (I've also gone back and forth between 2 and 3 Leovolds).
I found the Spellstutters fine enough, but it lead me to look at another 2-drop creature that is disruptive and very good with Aluren - Mesmeric Fiend.
Also, I find lots of games where you resolve Aluren in the BUG version you aren't immediately able to combo off and having Mesmeric Fiend and a Cavern Harpy allows you to lock your opponent out of cards in their hand/their draw step by bouncing the Fiend with the "exile a card" trigger on the stack just like Fiend Hunter/O-ring permanent exile trick. This gives another good "combo" element to the deck.
It's been a solid proactive 2-drop and also, against tougher MUs like Storm/Sneak&Show , which don't have MD removal, it just nabs the card for good.
Currently, I'm running 2 Mesmeric, 2 Leovold, 1 Vendillion (and 2nd clique in the sb) as disruptive creatures in the main.
Worth looking into imo.
I posted a couple pages back that I've been playing 1 Mesmeric Fiend main and 1 board for a little while now and that I love the card as it's a pseudo instant discard spell with Aluren in play. My discard suite is currently 4 Therapy, 1 Duress, and 1 Fiend main and a second Duress and Fiend in the board.
Cockatrice: EMFry
Good stuff, man.
Being able to permanently exile a card with Aluren and Cavern Harpy (O-ring/Fiend Hunter trick) is very valuable too.
Went 5-0 at FNM last night, with what I felt was a pretty stock BUG list, good for a Tropical Island.
List:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Cavern Harpy
4 Baleful Strix
1 Glint-Nest Crane
4 Shardless Agent
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Parasitic Strix
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Aluren
4 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
Sideboard:
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of the Void (Reanimator and dredge are reasonably popular in my meta, and other combo decks have a very small meta share relative to fair decks)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
Beat DnT x2, Esper Unearth (a homebrew full of 2-for 1s like Unearth, Baleful Strix, Snapcaster), BUG Delver, and Infect.
I've been enjoying the fourth Decay in the mainboard, but I am not sure that I'm happy with all 3 ponders. I kind of want to switch one for a flex slot, and was considering maindecking a deluge with the popularity of fair/creature based decks in my meta. I've also found that although my matchup is generally favourable, I drop a lot of Game 1s to Death and Taxes, especially when they know what deck I am on. I feel like it would shore up some of the tougher game 1s while not screwing me up when I'm trying to go off, as I can cascade past it. Has anyone else experimented with Deluge in the main?
I've also found that while I find the BUG version much stronger and more consistent, I often miss some of the bullets from the 4-color version, especially Eternal Witness. Anybody tried running her in the straight BUG build?
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META IS A FUCK
GRIP EM ALL 1989
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410,757,864,530 DEAD TOPS
With top gone, what changes are people planning for the short term?
I run BUG. I expect more fast combo, so I am thinking I want 2 thoughtseize main, along with my forces, and a bit of extra combo disruption in the side (cutting my second PStrix and something else in the main). I expect more delver and elves as well. Might add a GCharm to my board or some other -1/-1 card just in case while things shake out.
For the Imperial Recruiter build, I don't really feel much is changing. At least for now, the maindeck stays exactly the same (aside from removing the nonsense 61st card Reclamation Sage I was trying in the main deck for a bit).
For the sideboard, the only card that's an easy cut for me is Bloodbraid Elf, which only came in against Miracles, which is being swapped for a second Engineered Plague.
If Delver decks don't become too large a part of the meta, then I might cut Carpet of Flowers and test either Harsh Mentor or Trial of Ambition.
Otherwise, I don't think there's much room left with this sideboard. I almost cut Null Rod but it's still super good against D&T, and Pernicious Deed is an option but not knowing where the format is going means it's a great catch-all card:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
2 Engineered Plague
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Fire Imp
1 Force of Will
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Minister of Pain
1 Null Rod
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
I'm cutting my Sylvan Library and 4th Harpy for 2 maindeck Thoughtseizes and then seeing how the format shakes out.
With Top gone, Counterbalance is thus no longer an issue, I think I'll convert my 3 main Abrupt Decays to 2 Fatal Pushes and 1 Sylvan Library. What do you guys think of Abrupt Decays role moving forward?
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