Medea, there's no way that you can play four 4 drops in your 75 and still only play 23 lands. Even with my curve I feel like the deck wants 23.5.
Cpt:
-4 Thalia, -1 Spirit, -1 Prelate -2 Magus -> +1 Needle, +1 Sword, +1 Sparkmage, +1 Relic-Warder, +2 Path, +1 Judgement, +1 Crusader
If I were playing a build with two Plateaus, I would also bring in Pia/Kiran.
Magus is bad in the mirror, I've played the deck enough that I've had a g1 or two where it actually cut my Mono-W opponent off mana, but generally it's going to hurt you more because you play fewer basics and the body doesn't do much. Unlike other decks that 'play basics', Mono-W DnT is basically guaranteed to draw into them, even when it doesn't have many early.
It can also be randomly relevant to have a non-white creature in play in grindy Mom stand-offs, and that's another small thing the deck lost from going to the white recruiters. (Also relevant vs Dread of Night.) But the value you get from that is still not worth playing Grey Ogre.
I think this deck is a tad unfavored g1 in the mirror because it's playing Grey Ogres instead of Serra Avengers, and a tad favored post-board since you get to play Cunning Sparkmage.
Thank you.Originally Posted by Medea_
I didn't like the 3rd Mirran Crusader in testing. I wanted more variety in beaters, which is why I swapped the SoFI for the Batterskull in the main. I knew at least 1 of the bug lists would be Food Chain, specifically .dk (congrats on 3rd, btw!), here on the source. Last weekend he showed me how bad my matchup is against it in sanctioned play, and I was sweating the matchup. Turns out there were two there. Also, I knew there would be at least 2 Noble BUG lists there. There was at least 1 more. I'm more afraid of that deck and Food Chain than I am of miracles and the mirror, so I just slightly pre-boarded an answer that is still useful in those matchups and the mirror and Miracles lists.
Iatee: Any interest in playing some number of Flagstones of Trokair in place of some number of fetches? Probably not, because no choice in when it dies without wasting it yourself or playing a second one. I was also just thinking that perhaps between those and Ghost Quarters, there could be some kind of reasonable setup.
Flagstones is (more or less) Wasteland-proof but the upside isn't worth the downside here - you also want basic Plains if you're going to Blood Moon someone, not a legendary Mountain. Fetches aren't really non-basics, playing 5 fetches and 3 plains is roughly equivalent to playing 8 basics, which is probably as low as you want to go.
One thing I have been considering is a Horizon Canopy as a 24th land. That doesn't up the basic count, but it does up the W mana count to a more respectable 13 and is the best way to be playing 23.5 lands. The primary issue I have is the lifeloss - it's definitely not irrelevant, since the deck is already a little soft to the most aggressive decks.
I've tried to get cute with Flagstones before, and it just wasn't consistent enough for fixing.
Regarding Food Chain, here's the short list of conclusions I came to last night after a few hours of playtesting:
1. We are unfavored game one; the games go long and we get ground to dust by recurring 3/3s or eventually fold to the combo. We don't have enough disruption.
2. We are favored for post-sideboard games on the play, but not on the draw. On the play, the combination of Thalia, Revoker, and Canonist as strong turn 2 plays (with another the following turn) often gets them off balance and gives you a window to win. On the play, they can sneak a Manipulate Fate, Abrupt Decay, or two spells under you, often giving them the setup to win the game. Games where they are on the play AND have DRS are particularly rough.
3. Port is better than Wasteland here. Since the lists have 3-4 basics and your opponent is likely to fetch them out, Port may knock them off a color for their main phase pretty easily.
4. Sideboard plan:-4 StP, -1 SoWaP, -1 Jitte. +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Needle, +2 Canonists, +1 Batterskull
I think it's pretty clear that those 6 cards come in. There's an argument for Gideon, but in practice, it didn't perform well; I also didn't particularly want to cut other cards. Sanctum Prelate and Thalia are both sort of average here, but I don't think we can quite afford to cut the disruptive cards. Our path to victory usually involves sticking two pieces of disruption and then riding a threat to victory. Note that this boarding plan largely forsakes attacking DRS; StP is so bad against everything else in their deck that I'm okay with that. Unless you are using Wasteland, DRS runs out of food after a few turns and doesn't do much in the midgame. It will become relevant again in the very late game, but the game is often (effectively) decided by that point.
Jitte was something I didn't expect to end up cutting. This is a creature based matchup, after all. I found that it really underperformed in game one scenarios (I always fetched SoFaI first, it can't get a Griffon with the trigger, lines up poorly with Leovold). It could be used to blink Eternal Scourage effectively to eliminate the colorless blocker, but if they had the Food Chain/Scourage engine up already, I was either already losing to the board or couldn't get counters in the first place.
I tried trimming a Mom, but ultimately kept in all 4. Theoretically, trimming one makes sense to play around Engineered Plague/Dread of Night effects and to limit the power of Walking Ballista. In practice, I really needed to protect my hate bears from Abrupt Decay, and pushing damage through Griffins was key.
I agree with everything you said. I think in this matchup you do need a way to deal with ballista, though. I boarded out 3x wasteland and left in 2 StP and boarded in a Disenchant along with the rest of what you recommended. I don't feel favored at all against it ever, but I haven't played this nearly as long as most of you, so it could just be the nooby jitters.
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It's really risky to board out 3 lands, imo. I know Wasteland isn't the best card here, but we *need* to be hitting land drops 1-4. If we're at the point where we can't keep deploying cards, we can just start losing to derpy beatdown from Leovold and Griffins even if cards like Prelate and Revoker stop the combo.
Full write up on Food Chain is done now.
I really like the write up man! Think it really does go into detail what is good and why and what our role is. I think I'm the future you should not include SoWaP as a "main" card cause most players don't play it maindeck and this is more of a reference to how they should board. Otherwise really interesting write up
That's a fair point. I haven't convinced all of you yet. I got Michael Bonde though!
I don't see a decklist. :(
Well, the link works for me. Try this one instead.
@iatee There's a RW list up on thegraymerchants. The difference is +1 Flickerwisp, +1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar, +1 Phyrexian Revoker and -1 Palace Jailer, -1 Spirit of the Labyrinth, -1 Vryn Wingmare from your list. I guess the part I'm really torn about is the 4 drop slot. One one hand I see how Palace Jailer is great because of the card draw which the deck sorely lacks but on the other hand the Pia and Kiran Nalaar + Karakas combo is pretty insane. I think I'm liking your Vryn Wingmare and 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth instead of a 4th Flickerwisp and 3rd Phyrexian Revoker in their list. Is 2 4 drops too many if I wanted to remove the Spirit of the Labyrinth to have both?
I think if you wanted to do that, you would also want to play 24 lands. (Another Plateau to help cast Pia/Kiran reliably.) So I would cut the Mirran Crusader in the main too, to make room for that land. So -1 Spirit -1 Crusader +1 Pia/Kiran +1 Plateau. Then I would play that other Crusader in the board, and maybe even one more to help make up for not having the effect main.
I am using the standard list, but with 1 less surgical in the side, but a Sanctum Prelate in that spot. I am thinking of going with the red splash with -6 Plains,+1 Plateau, +5 fetches, +1 Cavern of Souls, -2 Mirrian Crusader, -1 Serra Avenger, +2 Magus of the Moon, +1 Pia Kira. How would a one of Restoration Angel (either side or main) be? The only hesitation I have with this list is a lack of fliers with toughness >1. Has anyone tested Restoration Angel in this version?
Also, I love restoration angel period. Is it good enough in the Mono-White version maybe with Palace Jailer?
New to the Source and relatively new to the deck, but have been playing legacy for the last 3-4 years.
If you scroll waaayyy down on this page, you can see the Big D&T list that Frenadol from MtG:S and I played for quite some time. This list is at least a year old at this point, so keep that in mind. Restoration Angel is pretty good as a one of, but if you start playing a couple of four drops, you really need a 24th land.
So pretty much it is either play a one of Restoration Angel or Palace Jailer. I don't want to increase my land count. I already hate those games that I flood out to begin with. Palace Jailer seems like a huge liability though.
I have played Resto a few times in R/W. I think the fundamental problem is that you are most desperate for a 3/4 flyer against decks that are designed to prevent you from actually casting 4 drops. The card is very strong vs slow grindy decks, but you are already very strong vs slow grindy decks.
That completely makes sense, it is basically a win more and if I have 4 mana I would rather have a sword or a Jitte. It is too bad that Restoration Angel simply isn't good enough any more.
There's also the all too relevant times when your serra avenger cant be saved by resto cause of the angel type.
What?
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