Pretty sure storm copies don't get countered by dovescape
Currently on this.Originally Posted by Lobo
8 Fetchlands
6 Basics
4 Duals
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lingering Souls
2 Sterling Grove
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Evolutionary Leap
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Cruel Reality
1 Sandwurm Convergence
3 Sensei's Divining Top
------------
1 Humility
1 Living Plane
1 City of Solitude
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Sideboard isn't tested. The Seal of Primordium might want to just be a Faith's Fetters or something. Humility could go maindeck but probably isn't needed there. I am a little worried about not having many consistent answers to big scary creatures, but Sandwurm Convergence and Cruel Reality do pretty good work even if not 100% of the time, and the deck also has a lot of discard spells + Leylines in the sideboard at least.
You're right, thanks. I edited my last post to reflect that.
I like the list, and will be sleeving up something pretty similar soon. As far as Seal of Primordium goes, we face so many Pithing Needles and Revokers on Pernicious Deed that it's great to have in the board. But with Cruel Reality and Sandwurm Convergence, maybe we just don't care as much as we used to if they lock up our Deeds. Actually, there's no maybe about it: we don't care as much as we used to. I'm tempted to drop it for a Toxic Deluge or something.
Not sure if Deluge is what we want. We already have a lot of stabilization post board, especially if we're bringing in Humility. To be honest it might want to be more combo hate, like Chains of Mephistopheles, or something to help against Burn and Delver like Chromanticore.
Hi guys,
I've managed to get away from my parenting obligations, and did bring nyx fit to the party :-)
I've tested the evolution build, here is the list :
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
2 Eternal Witness
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 evolutionary leap
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sterling Grove
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Living Plane
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Parallax Wave
1 curse of death's hold
1 cruel reality
1 leyline of sancity
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Cavern of Souls
notable are : the 2 evolutionary, the 2nd cavern, leyline main, collective brutality.
@ darwin : they varied from godsend to do nothing. requiring G to activate is tough. my build did have too many creatures (so I didn't evolve into rector or dora) but also too few (and it sat in my hand or on the board and waited for a sacrificial lamb).
But the good times are so goodevolving (or should I say leaping ? ) explorer into another explorer is so good. (turn 3 : seven lands, leap on board and rector in hand)
@ plato : it felt nice to draw it more often, never a time when I whished it was another land.
@ leyline : it played the role of hardcastable maindeck anticombo with a side serving of free win for desert. Nice, will continue to run it in the place of nether void.
@ brutality : love them ! Flexible as a cirque du soleil contorsionnist. I normally use it one mode at a time, being weak sauce removal or shitty duress (I feel I'm really selling the dream here) but the possibility to have a second effect and drop cruel reality in the yard is nice. Also I lived the dream VS burn and killed a goblin guide, discarded a price of progress and regained 2 life , on turn 2
To fix the too many creatures/too few creatures problem with evolutionary leap I'll try a few lingering souls as sugested. I've tried them in stonefit and they were awesome.
Also I wonder about the 4cc removal (cast out/faith's fetter/ parallax wave) I would feel a bit naked without any lifegain in the deck and wave gains so much time and gives you instant speed interaction (well plow could be better, it is worse when you're winning but so faster)
I'm also wondering if playing reality and sandwurm is needed or overkill ?
The deck is a blast, lovin it!
U eldrazi : 2-1 they're fast.
esper stoneblade : 2-0 deed is all they saw.
burn : 2/0 game 1 turn 2 brutality mortal kombat style then tutor for leyline , game 2 started with leyline.
junk : 1-2 hymn removes my creatures, leap is an useless piece of cardboard and my mana is so weak I can't cast my 4cc spells :-(
TLDR : will trim creatures for souls, fetters/wave for plows. will continue to test leyline instead of void. will play sandwurm instead of living plane. The deck is a blast, loving it !
I'll have to check those out. Appreciate all the knowledge being dropped in this thread.
Whether or not it's knowledge is questionable. I'm a theorist and deck builder more than anything else, but I'm still just some random person on the internet. Some of my ideas have been inspired by others, but if what I say doesn't make sense, there's nothing wrong with that either.
What I can say is the two most useful things I have found in years of coming up with ideas, and coming up with ways to test them are this:
#1. More land is better. Most people play far too few lands, this includes my SE builds, though I actually discipline myself and play 25 for Burn (yes, that's most optimal).
#2. Always run lower numbers of similar effects so that cards can cover each others weaknesses. That's why I run 2/1 Tracker/Courser for example. Don't underestimate leaving open the chance of actually drawing something useful. It happens more often than you think.
Collective Brutality can play a very big role in decks that are running proper curves. You can get away with more lands, while still converting unneeded lands into actual effects. Similarly, I think Brutality changes the optimal curve distribution for the same reason, it's a good way to smooth out clunkier hands. It's possible both of those only apply to Modern though since FoW wrecks it. Brutality is closer to just being a modal spell in Legacy.
Maybe perspective is a better word? There's a nice group of people here who have spent a ton of time playing and thinking about this deck. I'm just barely getting my feet wet relatively speaking. So I really appreciate the group that posts here. I know its helped me think about things on a much higher level. And its honestly rare (especially on the internet) to see thoughtful discussion and debate without devolving into the typical bullshit. That being said I have my own theories that are developing with more time.
Hopefully I will get a chance to play a bit more as life has caught up to me this month and I've been relegated to the kitchen table as of late. Most likely I'll be going to the prerelease this weekend and usually there's guys playing legacy in between games and on the side so I'll bring my Nic Fit along. Should be some fun.
I like your approach to the deck because in my experience the worst games for me are failing to ramp and getting stuck with a bunch of high CMC cards with 2-3 lands on board. I've been trying to find a way around that without losing the ability to out-grind the Delver and BUG decks of the world. Winning the grind game was always my preference anyway. Its my personal goal to make Loam work in a Nic Fit shell. One day...
@Navsi: while i'm missing it, playing a single creature like sigarda in a list with Leap means you have the 10-12% of possibility to hit her and "block" the chain, losing some of the Leap power. Same thought about blossom for Plm. Dryad is a good choice in this case because it's a free spell to start the chain if you are low of fuel but large with lands.
@Leyline W\: I don't really see the point about it: i mean, sure it's good vs certain decks, but for example vs Burn it doesn't stop his creature, neither Pop, Rift and Vortex. Not enough good.
it don't interfere too much with storm neither, being way worse for example than Eidolon of Rethoric.
Moreover, it does nothing against Elves, S&T and Reanimator, that are the most used combos in Italy at least, while it's an hard time for Ant. So i don't see the point of investing so many slots for it when 4 times on 5 (for example, but the number are even worst) is useless. Way better Lost Legacy, Nether Void, Dovescape, more discards ecc.
I don't know about reality/Sandwurm, but me neither will play both of them. Wurm has the big downside of being a veeeeeeeeeery slow wincondition under Humility, though.
@Leap: I will add that i will not play it without one (of both, better) of Lingering (that's awesome, probably want a 2x) or Dryad.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm really, really proud of the community that we have built up here. Each and every poster in this thread puts in a lot of time, effort, heart, and soul to making this archetype perpetually better, and I attribute our perpetually increasing refinement and success to that strong backing ethic. I don't believe the same can be said for any other deck in any other format, and indeed is rare to find in life in general, in my experience.
Leyline depends on what combo you are seeing a lot of. Getting it out for free is a pretty nice plus. It forces storm to go down the goblins route which we have answers for. It blanks 1/3 of Burn's cards and leaves them with stuff we answer easily (again with removal + Deed). We also are always happy blocking with the creatures we have against them. Leyline also has incidental but not insignificant value against opposing discard, Liliana, and Jace.
Against SnT of course it does nothing, but it's not for that matchup. What would you rather tutor for if you get a Rector trigger off of them anyway - Nether Void or Sandwurm/Cruel? I keep thinking that SnT can still Show and Tell yah even under Nether Void - they play basics to keep up with us on Vet triggers, along with Tombs and petals. Can't imagine you have too many turns before they get to 6 mana. But I admit I'd like some more practice against them. Sideboard Humility, Lost Legacy (if you choose it), additional discard does help.
And Elves - not sure why you wouldn't be prioritizing Curse/Deed over Nether Void or other enchantments, so that doesn't matter.
Reanimator I do see Nether Void being pretty optimum against. If you can prevent Tidespout from sticking though, then Sandwurm keeps them at bay, and Cruel also does good work. So it's not like you are completely left in the dust if you don't have Nether Void even against them.
What's your thought on Gideon's Intervention for that slot? It's versatile in that it can be both proactive and reactive, and works against both creatures and non-creatures. It's great against many forms of combo—we can Rector for it in response to Tendrils! It can answer more than one Delver, or more than one anything, really, as long as it's not a resolved planeswalker. Faith's Fetters was once our answer to planeswalkers, but now Cruel Reality exists, and perhaps that opens up space for an effect like Gideon's Intervention instead.
In my view, we have a damned hard decision to make in regard to Faith's Fetters vs. Cast Out vs. Gideon's Intervention as the four-mana white enchantment-based removal of choice (to say nothing of the old stalwart Parallax Wave).
I don't like Gideon's Intervention, primarily for the same reason as Leyline. It stops Tendrils but it doesn't stop Storm.
Our clock is terrible - we're definitely not going to be killing Storm before turn ~7, probably later, since our only way of actually killing people is Cruel Reality / Sandwurm Convergence / shitty creatures, which means once we resolve a second rector trigger we have a ~4 turn clock. Second rector trigger (or hardcast a 7-8 drop) isn't going to happen until turn 4-5 most likely, which means they aren't dying until turn 8-10.
This means combo decks get a lot of time to cantrip and draw into an answer for our lock pieces. They can draw a lot of cards in that time, and they have a lot of ways of finding answers by tutoring for Chain of Vapor or whatever. We have Sterling Grove to help us with that, but then our lock requires even more cards before we get anywhere (and we still lose if TES goes Wish -> Reverent Silence, or potentially to Empty the Warrens).
If our lock against Storm is 'protection from Tendrils' they have ways around it, and we aren't restricting them on time enough to prevent them from finding it. It's way less reliable than Nether Void, because Nether Void has the advantage of also stopping them from cantripping effectively and makes it harder for them to go off in the first place and tutor up their answers to the lock.
I don't think we need an Oblivion Ring / Cast Out / Faith's Fetters variant in the deck. Previously it was necessary so we could Rector for an answer to Jace, but now we don't need it because Cruel Reality and Sandwurm Convergence fulfil that role, so we're pretty much never going to need to Rector for this removal. That means we can afford to instead run cheaper, faster removal like Swords/Decay/Brutality which helps us stabilize more effectively.
Evolutionary Leap: I don't think having a chain ender in Sigarda is much of a problem. Yeah, you don't get any more Leaps, but you have a lot of ways of restarting the chain and it's not like you have nothing. If you really need an answer you can still pitch Sigarda, but in the meantime you have a Sigarda. I think having a card we can Zenith for that actually does something on its own is important.
Random thought: Vizier of the Menagerie turns Worldly Tutor into (a strictly better) Green Sun's Zenith #5-8.
@Navsi: i've seen now that in the MB you play Curse but no Plane/Dovescape/Humility, so you don't have an hard lock against anything. I really can't understand why we would choose to play 2 ench at a very high cost that don't close the game and overleap themselves, while renuncing at a very easy to assemble hard-lock (especially with Leap!).
I mean, your list loses a lot of answers in g1 for what? To gain +2 Stp and +2 Brutal collectivity? More early interaction needed in games like Burn and Elves where you anyway have no hard lock and a real hope to close the game before them?
@square_two: No, as said by navsi above Leyline is the worst hate possible against storm. He can just combo out and tutor a chain, for example. Why are you talking about value against Lili and Jace? Are you bringing it against Shardless or any other deck with them? I don't think so.
S&T: Boys, i really don't know why we are discussing about Leyline when the most competitive, strong and numerous combo is S&T (and the second one Elves), against which Leyline does nothing. Really.
Combo is -in general- our worst MU and why are you relying massively on a card that does nothing against most of them?
The best trigger against them is obv Sandwurm then Humility, but the point is that none of them matter against Omnitell, that can be stopped basically only from Dovescape.
What are we trying to hardlock against? Any 2 of Sandwurm Convergence / Cruel Reality / Curse of Death's Hold pretty much completely locks out every deck in the format that isn't all-in combo. These cards already shut down 99% of outs, and going up to 100% off Living Plane is a benefit, but not a big enough one to justify a card that's pretty terrible whenever we draw it and often just doesn't do anything in a matchup. In the sideboard it can still end games against fair decks but isn't as likely to end up in our hand in matchups where we don't want it. It's a solid lock piece but it's just not necessary most of the time.
Seriously, what deck do we actually need Living Plane against?
Miracles - We can already kill all their stuff. Sandwurms and CReality end the game quickly. LPlane would help but frankly if we're getting two Rector triggers we're going to win anyway, just put cruel reality + curse of death's hold on them.
Midrange - Sandwurms pretty much shut the deck down. It's not like they have many answers to it, and even if they do we can recur it and we still have a pile of 5/5s. This matchup is already super favored for us, why are were trying to make it better at the expense of aggro/combo?
Delver / Burn - We don't have time to search up stuff like Plane. More cheap removal is way more relevant. CReality ends the game unless they are a Pyro build, in which case Curse of Death's Hold does instead. Sandwurms also are an unanswerable game ender.
D&T - Curse of Death's Hold already pretty much wins us the game. Cruel Reality kills Mirran Crusaders just fine. I guess if they have Leonin Relic Warder they can theoretically do something about you, but you know what's good against him? Brutality/Swords, again.
Combo - Nether Void. They're too fast for us to rely on a second Rector trigger anyway.
Congratulations, you have officially hyped this deck up for me. I want to play nether void in legacy, in particular.
Since I'm going to assemble this contraption from scratch and I have to buy some tickets, lend me a hand: what are the absolute staples of the deck that I have to buy first? What are the cards that you listed and are not 100% sure to stay in the deck and you are still testing?
You seem to be pretty hyped for the new AKH cards, although they seem pretty expensive to be cast normally.
Seems nice, but we would have to rely on Vizier being on the battlefield. With that in mind, how much would we want Worldly Tutor if Vizier is not on the battlefield. If we would run Worldly Tutor, could that warrant a package of non-green silver bullets? I suppose that it could potentially increase the combo match-up to drop T2 Cannonist and whatnot. Tutor and Top can also be used for some trickery in response to Show and Tell for example.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
The point is that with jest few different cards you can answer a far wider range of decks. As said before i'm in love with Humility, a single card that's usefull against 80% of the field and win by theirself MU otherwise difficult (Elves and S&T). Elves doesnt' give damn vs Sandwurm or Cruel, and even Curse is often not enough, neither anything else you play beside Humility. And Elves is a MU that you have to consider, at least in my meta.
Other not so good Mu with your list: Eldrazi. You can't deed them (realistically), if you put Sandwurm or Cruel they probably beats you anyway too fast. The only card that can save you here is Moat (for example), or again Humility.
@Miracle: Yes, you will take Curse+Cruel, just to let them exile one of them with Council and than snap-council the other one? Or just play Entreat and gg?
The reality is that only Dovescape+Curse can safe you against Miracle, obviously since we are talking about the strongest deck around. Both Cruel and Sandwurm are not so good there alone, sadly, and they can easily control and win with Jace if there's only one of the three ench in play.
@Midrange: Yes, but they are the only decks that can have Maelstrom Pulse, + Snap and decay for Grove ecc. And cruel is pretty bad when they can just sac a drs or a strix and beat us with Goyf/nemesi and so on.
@Burn: As above, the mu isn't good, and stp is good here for sure, but the only way to be sure to win is Cop: Red. With no lifegain they can just play 2 pop/fireblast/vortex and win at any time.
@Delver: Here the point is not what ench you play, but the structure: glad to see that you too play 3 Carpet, i'm totally sold about it.
@D&T: As above, is about the structure. Another MU where spot removal can really help us, for sure.
@Combo: as said before, "Nether void" can't be enough in any case. Elves has Craddle and a board before we cast it, S&T can just wait to have 6 lands (another reason: Nether+Veteran is not that good).
Boss, i don't know if you are misunderstanding me, i'm not saying that spot removal is bad. I just don't like Stp over 3° decay or 3° C.Brutality, that's my point, as said before.
And, to make things even more difficult, what would we cut to accommodate any Worldy Tutors? Sheesh.
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