No one should be happy about Top.

[Kanti]

And you have been addressed, partly, with results. If you don't want to look at Miracles hitting 1st place for consecutive months as being too much, and just look at top8 "diversity", well sorry bud, you don't choose the metric. Imho you can't really start counting diversity in a top8 when it's all just U shells with different kill conditions, Miracles having the best one.

It's a very apt comparison. All the cards are enablers, Top, Survival, Flash. They get stronger over time, as more sets are released. Every creature that is printed obviously makes Flash and Survival stronger, and we can expect cards to use the top of library space in the future. So the question is again about limiting design space, or having to ban cards over and over again when they hit Legacy, just to keep some flavorful cards. And my answer to that is, fuck yes.

[Machinus]

15% of the field plays it cuz they like the art on tundras I bet.

Yes, this is the low post quality I was referring to.

More people play Delver of Secrets than Sensei's Divining Top. So this is a stupid thing to say.

Calling me "bud" even though that's not my name.

Even Aaron Forsythe, Font of Propaganda and Master of Doublespeak, had to admit today that Miracles is not overpowered.

So, again, no it's not.

[Julian23]

More people play Delver of Secrets than Sensei's Divining Top. So this is a stupid thing to say.

To be fair, so is claiming that Miracles wasn't too strong without any further points to back it up. Especially in the face of most prominent Miracles pilots disagreeing with you.

[s&s]

Yes, this is the low post quality I was referring to.

I just heard back from my contact at WoTC, they did in fact ban top for the sole reason to grief you, no other reasons are involved.

Well, glad that's cleared out.

[Maximus]

I agree that top was correct, it's just as problematic as terminus in Miracles but has way more problems as a card. The main one being it's difficulty to actually deal with using common forms of interaction. Similar to delver and shaman, it's way hard to deal with on mana parity. You don't want to Force it most of the time, and first turn Daze on it usually still puts you too far behind. Unlike the bodies, you can't kill it. If top resolves, your options are pretty much to trick the opposing player to pitching it on the stack, or Grip. The prior is solved by practice, the latter is awful because if you're way behind with a 3 mana/turns answer not unlike force or daze. It's also bullshit to play against because outdrawing your opponent every turn is a hard advantage to throw away, and the difficulty to actually play Miracles is way over-stated. You almost never have to be perfectly clean with your technical play, it's almost always you just durdle long enough to find whatever shoots your opponent in the face and then do that. This is ignoring tournament logistics with slow play, players that go way too deep into the tank, and the natural sense of revolt that every player *should* feel upon seeing a Tundra (or Taiga).

That said, LEGACY IS BACK! I can't be the only one this excited.

[s&s]

More people play Delver of Secrets than Sensei's Divining Top. So this is a stupid thing to say.

And no deck is played more then miracles.

I guess the number of people playing something is important when it comes to a specific card, not to an archetype?

Please continue to enlighten us with your high-quality posts, very insightful.

[Machinus]

To be fair, so is claiming that Miracles wasn't too strong without any further points to back it up. Especially in the face of most prominent Miracles pilots disagreeing with you.

First of all, "most prominent Miracles pilots" are not on this forum, so you might want to calm down with those desperate fabrications.


Second, you have it backwards. The onus is on you to prove a deck is overpowered. The fact is that the evidence shows it is not over powered.

[Dice_Box]

And no deck is played more then miracles.

I guess the number of people playing something is important when it comes to a specific card, not to an archetype?

Please continue to enlighten us with your high-quality posts, very insightful.

Give him some space. As much as you are enjoying this moment, he is not. Compounding the issue is not helpful.

[bop2]

Happy? People are dancing and celebrating on the street. Im dancing in the streets.

[Maximus]

First of all, "most prominent Miracles pilots" are not on this forum, so you might want to calm down with those desperate fabrications.


Second, you have it backwards. The onus is on you to prove a deck is overpowered. The fact is that the evidence shows it is not over powered.

Whether it's too good is a judgment call that is highly subjective. You basically just have to put your line in the sand and call it. It's sloppy but it's intellectually honest. Top wasn't just banned because Miracles may or may not be too good, it's that plus the card causing other problems elsewhere. I say good riddance, I've been waiting for this day for like two years.

[Nocley]

I'm prepping my delicious breakfast and am missing some salt. Could I bother you for some of those tears?

I'm hungover. Wanna come bring one of those to me and we can celebrate by playing green creature decks all day?

[danyul]

Be over in 15 bb.

[Zllig]

As bitter as I am about the ban. I really can't wait for in a month or two when all the Maverick players realize that they still can't beat a single True Name Nemesis and this doesn't change anything about their terrible deck.

I, for one, look forward to 4 years of Delver/Deathrite.dec being the unstoppable force in legacy.

[Skyl3lazer]

15% of the field plays it cuz they like the art on tundras I bet.

No they enjoy the lore aspect of sending a creature to take up farming

[Stuart]

As bitter as I am about the ban. I really can't wait for in a month or two when all the Maverick players realize that they still can't beat a single True Name Nemesis and this doesn't change anything about their terrible deck.

. . . aren't cards like Zealous Persecution, Deluge, and Golgari Charm easily/widely played answers to TNN? And as long as you keep equipment off the field, can't Maverick and other midrange decks just go wide or race TNN?

[Julian23]

First of all, "most prominent Miracles pilots" are not on this forum, so you might want to calm down with those desperate fabrications.
The fact is that the evidence shows it is not over powered.

Joe, Bob, Anuraag all already acknowledged the powerlevel of the deck. Let alone most EU players. The question had already long shifted to what would need to be banned.

You denial isn't gonna help you. Or are we going full-"FAKE NEWS!" here anyway?

[aluisiocsantos]

Well, Miracles did exist so that you didn't have to go Toxic Deluge maindeck..

[Smuggo]

I overall agree with the reasoning for the ban, it does result in an abnormal amount of games going to turns because it is just such an extreme amount of durdling multiple times per turn. It's skill intensive sure, but it's also real dull for the person who faces you.

As a U/R delver player this is great for me as getting round a countertop lock was either impossible or incredibly tedious.

But that said, I think Terminus would be a better ban, then the deck stays playable but not completely OP, other decks that use Top can continue. Terminus is just stupid as a 1-mana wrath that also completely denies graveyard strategies and other interactions. It was just really good against everything.

[Stuart]

Well, Miracles did exist so that you didn't have to go Toxic Deluge maindeck..

Agreed, but in a post-Miracles world where Elves is likely tier 1, BGx is probably gonna include sweepers of its own anyway. Not saying Maverick is gonna be thrilled to face down TNN, but it won't auto scoop to one.

[Barook]

Agreed, but in a post-Miracles world where Elves is likely tier 1, BGx is probably gonna include sweepers of its own anyway. Not saying Maverick is gonna be thrilled to face down TNN, but it won't auto scoop to one.

GWB Maverick has Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution and Toxic Deluge as viable sweeper options. SFM for SoFaI also works. We'll how thing are going to settle eventually.