Stuff came up and I won't be able to get to that list of lifegain creatures I promised. Off the top of my head though is Obstinate Baloth, Siege Rhino, Finks, Ooze, Archagnel of Thune, Spike Feeder, Courser of Kruphix, Deathrite Shaman, Thragtusk, and Umezawa's Jitte. There's plenty there to make something with the ability to get a lot of draws out of Sylvan Library.
Edit: Decided on what I'm doing for my build too. -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 SDT, +1 Fatal Push, +2 Sylvan Library. This keeps me within my mana curve requirements and still enables some filtering/draws.
Here's some preliminary thoughts and decklists for y'all:
Expected new metagame (tier 1.5+):
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lands, elves, DnT, storm, show and tell, shardless, aluren, eldrazi / dragonstompy, delver (mostly bug and grixis)
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conclusions we can draw from the above metagame:
Note: I expect Food Chain to fall off somewhat short-term because Miracles was one of the deck's best matchups. Eventually, I think it will pick back up as Abrupt Decay disappears from the format (more on this later).
Blood moon is likely very good, which suggests that Dragonstompy will be the favored Chalice deck. Possibly Big Red or some other deviant, but Dragonstompy is probably the best version of the red stompy shell atm.
Sweepers are about 50% effective. When you need them, you really need them -- but the rest of the time they'll be kind of mediocre. Spot removal that doesn't hit non-creature permanents or Merit Lage is probably not good enough. 3-mana removal spells, Path to Exile / StP, and edicts (to the slaughter) are likely good, with other spot removal falling off quite hard (especially Abrupt Decay).
Discard spells are kind of junky. Permanent-based hate solutions are likely better, but the ones in question need to be carefully selected.
5 of those decks are flat combo decks. The remaining 4 win by overwhelming advantage accrued through subsequent turns. I would say that, if we haven't done something backbreaking by turn 4 in the new format, we're not going to get the chance to. The combo decks will have killed us and the advantage decks will have developed too far of a lead.
This concerns me with regards to Rhino. Historically, Rhino has not had the best matchups vs the above decks, and I'm not confidant in the Top ban helping that. I think we need to be either more controlling/disruptive or more aggressive/proactive than Rhino is capable of being -- that middle ground just isn't going to be a good place to be, I think. With that in mind, here are some speculative lists:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Night's Whisper
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sneak Attack
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Fatal Push
1 Chalice of the Void
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New version of Sneak was, of course, my first look. I think that spot removal is going to be absolutely ass moving forward. This version runs very light on removal, with some slight backup from Huntmaster and Inferno. Huntmaster and Thrag provide the lifegain to compensate for Night's Whisper, as well as extra bodies for Diabolic Intent, which will help tie the combo together.
Two copies of Intent necessitate the presence of Dryad Arbor, to turn extra lands mid/late game into a tutor. It does also turn Zenith@0 into a draw spell with a Tracker, which is minor but might matter somewhat.
Primeval moves to the board now that his primary reason for existing maindeck is gone. He might not even be needed, but I want to keep him in the board just in case. The ability to run a Chalice of the Void out of the board to tutor for is one of my favorite features of this list, and will likely end up in other versions as well.
Basically, the maindeck is focused on doing what it does best and only runs minimal interaction, favoring its own gameplan instead of interacting with the opponent. We still have the Deeds, we still have the Pulse, Inferno + Hunts, Sneak + Emrakul, Therapies, etc -- but it's noticeably less than we once had, for sure.
The sideboard has a lot of powerful but specific answers. This is definitely a sideboard that is built with Demonic Tutor in mind. Storm is likely unwinnable, but I don't think that it's even worth trying to fix that matchup, moving into the new world. We have a Chalice to tutor for, we have Lost Legacy to hopefully strip something important quickly, and beyond that, we just focus on our own deck and trying to Sneak them as quickly as possible. Other than Storm, I think that this sideboard matches up fairly well vs the expected metagame.
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4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Crop Rotation
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Fatal Push
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 To the Slaughter
Colorless was where I wanted to look next. Not going to pretend this isn't rough, but there's a lot going on here that I like.
Ancient Stirrings is a particularly powerful selection card. It sucks that it loses Top as a hit, but it is arguably better at being Traverse the Ulvenwald than Traverse is -- it's lands early game, disruption mid game, and a wincon late game. A pair of Crop Rotations help give the deck resilency against Wasteland while also increasing the number of broken starts it is capable of.
While this deck has even less removal (1 EE, 2 Deed, 1 Ulamog), it does have the full set of Thought-Knots to help out, which makes the deck fairly disruptive. Otherwise, it is once again going to do what it does -- the full set of Trackers should allow the deck to keep up and run away with some games, while the Stirrings help to smooth out the early game. A pair of Ancient Tombs help make early Thought-Knots more viable, as well as helping to cast the big guns and ALSO speeding up your anti-combo sideboard hate: the full playset of Chalice of the Void, which can additionally be found by Ancient Stirrings. This allows you to dig incredibly deep with a Stirrings to find meaningful interaction on turn 1 vs combo -- even just a Chalice on 0 is amazing vs Storm and can slow Show and Tell by a not-irrelevant amount of time. Chalice is also great vs Elves, for obvious reasons.
Wurmcoil helps with Eldrazi and the BUG decks, TTS is generic planeswalker removal (and also helps vs Show and Tell and Merit Lage), the rest is pretty standard.
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4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Atraxa, Preator's Voice
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Night's Whisper
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Path to Exile
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
sb::
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Celestial Purge
1 To the Slaughter
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage
This is my first stab at a controlling white list. Atraxa is present as a zenithable Baneslayer first, and as counter manipluation second. The Island may not be necessary, but I'd start with it and find out rather than the reverse. Only one Diabolic Intent can be supported here, I feel. Some number of Lingering Souls is also worth a half a thought, but space feels pretty tight -- I couldn't get the 2nd Tracker I wanted, either.
The removal suite in this deck seems like it should be favorably positioned against the upcoming format. Path and StP can be debated all day -- I'm personally worried about Merit Lage, and you'll never, ever kill them with 20 extra life, so I opted for Path. I also feel like the ramp has fringe benefits vs decks you don't want to acceleration (ie you can Path your Vet vs Storm).
The sideboard looks like hot fire. The hateful bears (and tutorable Chalice) is where I want to move with my sideboarding, along with a move to Lost Legacy for a little extra speed. Thoughtseize seems really bad to me, and Surgical seems even worse. The board also has a good, wide range of additional removal options.
Good lists. I like your thoughts on removal. I'm going to consider them myself.
I 100% agree that Chalice is going to be an issue. I'll take that prediction a step further though. Without the Top/CB lock, a Chalice (most often Chalice for 1) is going to be the biggest policeman in the format. Anyone can play it, and anyone can land it for one easily.
I think this is going to up the CMC of our deck a little. I'm going to stick with my Crop Rotation plan for now, since it leads into Towers and explosive openings but that's very tenative. Chalice on 1 ruins that plan pretty hard.
Elves is going to require a different removal set. I'm pretty interested in some Golgari Charms right now in the SB. The same holds true for Toxic Deluge. Some other decks will be bringing in Library to replace Top too, so Charm should pull double duty there.
D&T is basically unchanged. Unless they start running Mirran Crusaders again.
With Storm, going up to 4 Lost Legacy might not be the worst idea in the world. I've been running 2 and it's been solid. 4 to really deal with combo probably holds some merit though even though I'm not often a fan of 4 of's in the SB.
I've been leaning towards the idea of some MB Lost Legacy even, this could be a good format for that. But I don't know where I would make the cuts yet.
One more post. Here's the adjustments I made to my build
Summary:
-1 Fetch, +1 Tower. Tower starts are the fastest, I'm worried about Chalice on 1 messing that up
-2 SDT, +2 Sylvan Library. Ban changes.
-1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Fatal Push. Hits more creatures, helps keep the curve in tact.
-1 Deed +1 Deluge. Keeps curve in tact, diversifies answers, helps preserve Library. MB because of Elves.
-1 Geist, +1 Pulse. Alters the threat/answer balance a bit, but I agree with the above post about this being the time to push our 3 CMC removal. Giest got the cut, because without Miracles I don't need a hasted way to smack a PW right now.
SB: Massive changes. Dropped the Dark Depths plan for now. With that looking to be the formats control deck, the combo has too much of a bullseye on it. Instead I added more threats/answers.
-3 DD, -2 Stage +2 Lost Legacy, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Carpet of Flowers. Carpet is speculative, without Miracles there's fewer decks we want it against, but there are a few like S&T and Shardless.
Land (23)
2x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
5x Forest
1x Maze of Ith
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (3)
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Sylvan Library
Creature (16)
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Dark Confidant
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer
Instant (7)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Crop Rotation
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Fatal Push
Planeswalker (2)
2x Nissa, Vital Force
Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
Sideboard (15)
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Crop Rotation
2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Golgari Charm
1x Karakas
4x Lost Legacy
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Treetop Village
First post, I guess. Been playing Magic since Apocalypse in various forms, mostly EDH. I have been wanting to get into Legacy for years and finally made the plunge and put together Sneaky Fit and Rhino Fit on MTGO last week. Learning this deck has been a blast! I bought my duals and fetches for both variants yesterday in paper, but now that Legacy is going nuts I think I will hold off on grabbing anything other than the core cards (Veteran Explorer, CT, GSZ, etc.) in paper until things settle down a little bit and the meta is more established.
That said, I've been playing all day since I got home from work, trying out new cards and whatnot. So far I have been liking Painful Truths replacing my SDT. It can be a bit awkward drawing the weird one-ofs we tend to run in Nic Fit so I do miss the filtering of SDT just a tiny bit, but overall I don't miss it too much. Sylvan Library has been okay, super good vs. combo to see more potential answers. I rarely deed it away against combo as well. (For whatever that's worth, coming from someone who has only been playing Legacy for a week.)
New Vizier might actually be viable as a 1 of in rhino? Since I'm expecting to see less plows he is unkillable, has a nice booty and gives CA/selection through fetches? And unlike courser he doesn't show our top to the opponent (the real reason courser is bad).
I think this is the time of the rhino resurgence. Sigarda (and thrun) suddenly are a LOT better now. 2-3 truths might be the replacement of top in that build.
I dunno about less Plow. Stoneblade will be around more now.Originally Posted by rubblekill
Possibly, but it doesn't hurt as a 1 of for the late game.
Can we all talk about all the sb slots that now become open thanks to this format being actually enjoyable again?
How can we fill the space? What do we remove from the side?
I think some number of golgari charm and/or deluge are a must (elves) now. Now I can remove the three (!!!!!) chokes from the side of my GB Fit deck.
I think that now I have the space to finally play 4 leylines of the void to auto win (sort of) any kind of gy match up. Reanimator and lands got a boost from this ban, and 4 leylines (with maindeck drs and ooze) solve the problem.
Good point, we could probably get away with running 3 in the board, since we can easily cast the card.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
The point is that LotV doesn't have that sweet ETB effect, unlike RiP: so the key benefit of having 4 leylines is achieved due to the increased chance of having the auto win in the opener.
If we cast one leylines their shit remains in the yard and that can lead only to bad things for us. Plus if we get to 4 mana we were going to win the gy matchup anyways (I'm not talking about lands here).
I like the splash damage against storm, although surgical is better in that matchup.
And I strongly disagree with Arian (is this the first time?) on the discard spells being worse now. Instead I think discard effects are even better: we are going to see more stoneforges and discard snipes their stuff from their hand. On the top of that, discard is better against all the combo we are going to see.
1 mana discard was bad against miracles thanks to counterbalance, now that card doesn't exist anymore.
Call me crazy, but I think Nic Fit benefits from modal type cards. Especially with a format in flux, I want to have brutality and liliana as of this post. My rationale is that both of those cards easily fit into anyone's list and have the flex to play on-curve as additional discard (therapy, brutality, liliana) or removal. The larger question mark is "wtf she'll do you run said cards in?"
I PM'ed Kevin and tossed around the idea of BG reanimator fit. I just can't get the packages to work in 60 cards so I might as well ask it here. I think you can fit entomb/buried alive + reanimate/exhume/animate dead + brutality/therapy/liliana + finishers. Not sure how it all works out. It is not sneak fit, which can be nic fit but laterally change gears for the combo kill. This would be a more dedicated game plan. You win through griselbrand, Iona, inkwell, and elesh.
Doesn't seem where we want to be since now this format is going to see a lot more DRSs..I hope I'm wrong though.
This theoretical deck may want some number of Fauna Shaman as well. At worst it can pitch a fatty and get you something dumb like Karmic Guide
There are 2 Reanimator variants out there with a very dedicated gameplan, winning with said creatures.
I honestly don't think, a dedicated reanimator NicFit variant could do better than them.
What the NicFit core does, is giving you (a)symmetric access to a lot of lands. If you try to reanimate creatures (fast) why would you need that core?
I went with -1 Decay, -3 Tops, +2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Sylvan Library in my Nyx List that I posted earlier. -3 Carpets, +2 Lost Legacy, +1 Deluge in the side. That's I think about the most I can do with the cards I have online atm. Started a league last night and am 1-2 in it - beat bug delver, lost to ur delver and omnitell.
I don't have Meren (30 tix!!) to put in my bug list but she should be there.
Way to go after Top-ban(?):
With the threat of Terminus diminished, a strategy to build a board aggressively can be generally accepted.
For NicFit this also includes Dryad Arbor.
About the Meta:
A lot of decks depended on Miracles being the "fun police".
"Control" decks like Stoneblade, 4c/Grixis Control or BUG didn't really have to prepare for swarming strategies, because those simply couldn't get past the early Terminus. If any at all, there is 1 Toxic deluge in 75 cards.
For me the question is, if swarming decks make a comeback or not. Merfolk? Zoo?
If you look at a pre-Miracles Metagame the top aggro decks were Merfolk, Maverick, Bant and Zoo. Not much left of those today.
I say if those decks make a comeback, we are well positioned and deed will be great again.
If the meta completely degenerates into dominant combo variants and decks to punish them - well, we still can beat one half of that.
I think this is a bit hyperbole. I still kick ass with large KotRs despite DRS being a format staple. Likewise, reanimator is already a thing (and doing well). The presence of DRS doesn't automatically invalidate GY strategies.
Thanks for the advice! Fauna may be a better setup, as it aids the core Nic Fit experience as well as the reanimator plan. There's also the idea of Pod with a reanimator/karmic guide spin. Karmic is quite playable @ CMC 5.
Tbh, it's something I'd like to venture into. I am not declaring it a superior product. But look at SneakFit. You're essentially stating "Why bother with SneakFit when Sneak/Show.dec already exists?" It's so easy to write off strategies because a dedicated deck already exists. I value your points about Nic Fit's shell benefiting from rapid basic land acceleration. That's certainly true. It's definitely something I still want to find a way to leverage.
I am sorry if I sounded overly harsh. You should definitely try to make it work!
SneakFit is able to cast its creatures (well, not Emrakul). In fact, the deck works fine without and very good with Sneak attack.
Maybe a Reanimator deck that also casts its creatures could be a thing.
I played Grisly Salvage + Unburial Rites (+Faithless Looting) in standard a few years ago. A deck that could heavily support Liliana of the Veil.
Yeah, that's the idea, I think. Or at least, that was what I was doing when ReaniFit was the way to go in Dig Through Time the format. Grave Titan is a hell of a thing to both reanimate and also cast. It operated along the way axis that Sneak does currently.
Also, I have won multiple games casting Emrakul, thank you very much :3
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