Cut the 4th Plains for a 5th fetchland if you want the 7th red source. I had been playing without Sudden Demise in tue SB for awhile now but am sure the only decision I will be making going forwaed is trying to fit in a 2nd Needle in the SB.
What are you anticipating will rise that you want the Needle for? I'm not disagreeing, just curious.Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd
@iatee and Medea_
Fair enough. So... short of going to 3 plains, dropping Caverns and adding a fetch and 3rd Plateau, which gets us to 8 red sources main, do we have a way to do this?
this was Bahra's old manabase, btw:
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
2 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
Or do we have to have another answer?
The biggest appeal of Needle was that it was a Phyrexian Revoker that didn't get Terminused. I think I would rather play more Revokers now (possibly in the board) rather than Pithing Needle. Revoker way better vs Elves too.
redtwister, I think I would rather just not wreck the manabase and play a bunch of otherwise good (creature) sb cards against Elves. Sudden Demise doesn't have enough application elsewhere, IMO. Who knows though, maybe Elves actually is the most popular deck and we have to totally retool things.
Canonists/Revokers/Priests/Ping/maybe even another Spirit of the Lab or our old pal Frank. Get to a place where you have relevant disruption t2 and t3 nearly 100% of the time.
@iatee
Sure, that's fair. I am talking week one, really, when I expect Elves players to reappear en masse.
After that, have to see how the format plays out. Honestly, we haven't had a format without Miracles in what, 3 years or more?
If I went to creatures, I think want Aven Mindcensor, especially if Stoneblade is back, to inhibit opponent searches as much as getting lands. It would be a very nice supplement to Orzhoff Pontiff in WB, as well.
Maybe something like:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Lands (23)
4 Plains
6 fetches
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Council's Judgment
1 Mirran Crusader
@Medea_
Isn't Sanctum Prelate still quite good?
I could see Aven Mindcensor for sure. Plus there's cool new art, which is another good reason to play the card.
I don't know. I really feel like that's a card that I played for Miracles, truth be told. It's fine elsewhere, but if I'm going to be adding more hate like Aven Mindcensor, Wingmare, SotL, and/or Canonist, I don't know if I want it. The slots have to cave somewhere, and I'm not sure where. I'm not sure which set of idiots is quite right. It's probably fine to keep as a one of somewhere, that list was something that I just quickly sketched.
I have been playing death and taxes for a long time. I have followed this thread and thraben university very closely and have been paying particularly close attention to all the threads the past couple days since the ban. Here are my 2 cents:
Has everybody forgotten why we stopped playing wingmare and sotL and mindcensor in the first place? They are all 1 toughness creatures. With Miracles being gone, and an uptick in TNN, everyone and there brother will be bringing in -1/-1 hate. That makes all 1 toughness creatures (especially utility creatures) go down in stock....in my opinion. I have already heard on multiple different decks forums that DnT is now the leading control deck out there. Everyone will be gunning for us and there will be even more dread of nights in the sideboard. I feel like all those 1 toughness utility creatures are for sure the wrong way to go. That being said, i think the red splash might be the way to go. Magus is a 2 toughness creature. And ethersworn is also a 2 toughness creature. My deck going forward would look something like this + or - a few cards once the meta gets worked out:
23:
3 plains
1 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
1 cavern of souls
3 plateus
4 wastelands
4 ports
2 karakas
26:
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Thalias
4 Stoneforge
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mothers
1 Ethersworn
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiters
2 Revokers
2 Mirran Crusaders
1 Serra Avenger
11:
1 Batterskull
1 SoFi
1 Jitte
4 Vials
4 STP
SB:
1 Pia and Nal
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Sudden Demise
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn
2 Surgical
1 Path to Exile
1 Gideon
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Council's
1 Rest in Peace
1 Enlightened Tutor
That's a good point. One of the things Joe Lossett talked about in his stream was how much sideboards are going to shift. Many decks were specifically dedicating hate towards Miracles (ourselves included), and those slots are going to get freed up. That may mean we may face more -1/-1 hate in the coming days, as decks that previously couldn't afford to run hate against us now can. It may be that another deck (e.g. Elves) gets the target painted on its back, but we'll likely still get caught in the crossfire.
Yep we will see an uptick in:
Toxic Deluge (especially this one)
Dread of Night
Engineered Plague
Marsh Casualties
Wirewood Symbiote on the draw and more chances of finding an answer to Sneak Attack. Also an answer to Planeswalkers without having to rely on Revokers is nice.
Moving forward I will continue to keep 4x Revokers in the main due to the ubiquity of DRS.
With Terminus as the unarguably most final and probably best removal out of the picture (I hope...), critters like Epochrasite and Kitchen Finks deserve a closer look, too.
Also remember how good Prelate is against Lands. Naming 2 shuts down a LOT of their most important spells. Honestly I think I am where the splashes are so minimal I will do black main, red side. I'm liking 1 prelate, 1 kambal, 1 Pontiff main with 1-2 magus and 1 Harsh Mentor in the board. 1 Zealous Persecution in board if i can find room also.
Anyone else considering 2 jitte in the 75?
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Yeah, I think everyone and their mom expects more Lands, so there does need to be a Prelate in there.
2 Jitte probably isn't unreasonable, but I don't know if it's necessary if we already hate on Elves in a bunch of other ways. We aren't trying to make that match amazing, just reasonable.
If anything I think there will be fewer Dread of Nights now that that card is 100% for DnT / has no application elsewhere. I agree about the other stuff, especially Toxic Deluge, which is now legacy's best wrath. Unfortunately that card is really hard to play around. People are going to be gunning for Elves, and unfortunately a lot of the best cards vs Elves are good against us too.
I'm not sure either of those cards are exactly what we need, but I think you have a really good point that I haven't heard anyone else mention until now (and is relevant outside of just DnT). DnT is the only remaining widely played StP deck. There will probably be an uptick in Stoneblade decks just cause people need to do something with their Tundras, but it's also possible that they fall off because they're not good. But big picture - tons of otherwise strong creatures that were soft to exile/tucking effects might become playable across legacy.
I'm currently writing about how the removal suite of Legacy is about to really shake things up. We just aren't going to see a ton of StP. We'll get some Stoneblade, I'm sure, but Terminus was really the reason to be in white for Miracles.
I'm curious as the opinions about Caverns now. With Miracles being one of the biggest reasons to play them and splashing black or red likely on the horizon are people going to be cutting them.
I am planning on picking up 2 plateaus and tossing in some white fetches for Magus of the Moons and maybe test Harsh Mentor ( not as hopeful since I thought it would be really good against top ) Additionally, I'll probably being on one of the pingers as opposed to sudden demise but that's me.
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