As much as I am partial to RIP-Helm enchantress I don't think it's the right direction to take to beat the meta.Originally Posted by Fjaulnir
Sooo, like all other threads on the forum right now probably, time to think about how the Top ban affects Enchantress:
To be honest I'm very partial about the ban in regards to Enchantress. It always felt like one of our better matchups if the deck was constructed properly, and Enchantress was one of the few decks I enjoyed playing against Miracles with.
Additionally, it may mean an increase in bad matchups for us initially, like Elves, combo/Storm, ...
(also I used to play Top in Enchantress quite often, after ESG's example, so I guess it's back to Mirri's Guile for now)
So in general, this seems bad. On another note though it may mean something positive:
Without Miracles, the choice between Doomwake Giant/Emrakul/Replenish lists, or Rest In Peace/Helm of Obedience lists seems easier. I'm sad I don't get to Cast Out cycle + Replenish now, but I think cutting Emrakul/Replenish and going all in on Rip/Helm seems correct right now. This also allows for maindeck Humility to shut off Elves/Rec Sage and DnT/Revoker on Helm.
(altho 4 mana is a lot to resolve against these 2 decks)
These aren't new ideas but it makes it easier to choose 1 version over the other imho, as Emrakul seems very meh in the matchups we might face over the next few months (except maybe 4c Czech Pile or Painter or so).
Doomwake is nice against Elves/DnT, but against Elves I'm dead before casting him anyway.
And Helm/Rip is pretty good against Leovold decks, compared to having to chain 3 enchantments through Doomwake without draw triggers to kill Leo. Even in the matchups where I don't particularly like Helm-Rip (like DnT), it's still a pretty fast kill if you can protect it with Grove/Humility.
Edit: for splash options I'd still be doubting between Red (Blood Moon vs BUG), Blue (Energy Field vs Burn/Eldrazi), and Black (Engineered Plague vs Elves/DnT and Parallax Nexus vs Storm and other combo). Guess to be sure about that we'd have to see which direction the meta takes.
Edit 2: increase in Elves + possibly Belcher & the likes, makes me keen on trying that Tabernacle tech. Glad I ordered one 2 weeks ago
Assuming control will wane, and combo will rise it makes sense to me to lean more on Replenish. RIP-Helm had an issue with BGx decks which I can only imagine will rise now.
Elves will certainly rise in play, and BR reanimator may go further unchecked with less Forces running around.
Combo tends to rely on discard vs Countermagic to tempo to combo so casting a T3 Replenish could have a lot of upswing.
Assuming the meta will swing combo with the control decks being BGx and D&T I’d focus the deck back to control and beating their disruption with Replenish
Honestly, this could be the meta for a tuned GW Opal-Wave
RIP Helm sounds way better than Replenish in the meta you're describing: grave hate and free wins sound like a solid plan vs combo, DRS, and graveyard decks. But as I agree with Dingo that Enchantress is probably about to get a lot worse, it probably doesn't matter much anyway.
Actually, Elves are preying on Delver decks in general. I admit that the matchups versus removal heavy bug are hard but their the ones that SB in to become more interactive with the Elves player, not the other way around [I board in Abrupt decays with Elves vs BUG to deal with their Delvers thats about it.]
Sidenote: I am aware they play Golgari charm, Toxic Deluge etc.
Im expecting Elves players to include Ruric Thar again in the mainboard with miracles gone, the card is nuts versus BUG as long as you keep a 2nd creature on the field in case they land liliana. Aside of that, theres not much in their deck to remove Ruric easily. [Singleton Maelstrom pulse?]
People are speculating wildly now in other threads, one camp screams : The meta will go midrange, the others are shouting: Its going to be combo summer.
Nobody knows and only time will tell. The only thing people seem to agree on is that Elves will be better positioned with the Miracles ban. Guess I will have to up the amount of crop rotations I run for Tabernacle and include a glacial chasm if this prediction comes true.
That said, with the meta shifting into an unknown direction, I see myself wielding and tweaking DnT for the coming months.
I was also thinking helm-rip to be better in a meta that's going to speed up with combo, reanimator etc?RIP Helm sounds way better than Replenish in the meta you're describing: grave hate and free wins sound like a solid plan vs combo, DRS, and graveyard decks. But as I agree with Dingo that Enchantress is probably about to get a lot worse, it probably doesn't matter much anyway.
Running 2 Helm 3 Rip instead of 1-2 and at least 3 Sterling Grove. (Decay may be replaced with Fatal Push to some degree but probably not all of them)
Also seems better to beat DRS/Goyf. And is less dead to Leovold imho - they draw 1 but still die, whereas other builds rely more on the draw engine without a combo finish
(Cant speak about Opalwave as I never tried that)
I may be wrong, but I respectfully disagree. If there were (2) decks that were the bane of GW-Helm they would be BGx decks, and Elves.
GW-Helm can not even compete against a normal hand from RB re animator, but can hold it own against Storm, and SNT.
If my perdition is correct and Elves will be the DTB, in the company of BGx decks and possible TNN decks then GW-Helm stock build is not where you want to be.
At that point Enchantress would want to move away (for a period of time) from GSZ and Argothian. I know this sounds absolutely absurd, but I do believe it is correct. This opens up design space to explore Kruphix's Insight as a non-set-up draw engine that can alternatively fuel the yard in fair MUs.
When I was testing GW Opal-wave. It had favorable MUs to BGx decks and Elves. It also did not loose ground to Storm or SNT. Actually I think it improved it.
What it did loose ground to was TNN, but you could race it.
Where you loose RIP vs reanimator, or DRS you gain Parallax Wave, and Replenish. I know the mana conversion is not the same, but they function similarly except that you can play either re actively to get back into the game.
...again, I may be wrong, but having a deck with (4) GSZ and (4) Argothian to to set-up the decks engine when the DTB are set-up to handle that opener handily it's time to table that deck, or find alternatives. Trust me I want GW-Helm to be played, but if the meta perdition is correct this is not the meta for it.
Edit: GW-Helm was initially designed to beat Tempo, UW control, Jund, and Mud. That meta regrettably has passed. It's time to retool the deck.
Sounds interesting Freggle! Do you have a list?
I agree that the Enchantress effects are bad in a meta filled with Leovold! :/
Link to N&D Thread here.
Last tested decklist here, but I'd likely try and maindeck 3ball (Trinisphere) if combo is going to be as bad as I think.
I play GWu RiP-Helm Enchantress that's less focused on the engine, so I can play 4X Humility in my 75, which is a big part of my game plan against D&T and Elves. So, the strategies and soft spots don't overlap w/ trad Enchantress 100%, but they overlap enough.
The Top ban has opened up a bit of SB space and I'm brainstorming about Elves options. Humility's great, but can be slow, so I'm hoping to find something I can jam more quickly.
First consideration: Nullifies the Reclamation Sage/Wirewood Symbiote combo, which Humility does. Is there nothing else that does, besides creatures (not a good fit) and sweepers (no candidates)?
- It has to cost less than 4, even though it'll be Decay bait
There are things like Authority of the Consuls that cost 1 and will slow them down, but won't stick around, and aren't needed against many other decks
- There are options that partially shut off Sage/Symbiote
Engineered Plague: will get hit by Sage, but Sage'll die; would require; nice with Sterling Grove
Cursed Totem: grabbed by E. Tutor too; hits D&T; shuts down Symbiote but it'll be back on once Sage hits knocks off Totem
- I'd like it to hit another matchup that needs help, e.g. D&T, Storm, BGx, tempo, etc.
tldr: Any (faster) Elves tech besides Humility that won't get eaten by Sage/Symbiote?
Any other worthy bridges to Humility, if that doesn't exist?
Actually, looking at new D&T lists with Recruiter, Prelate and Flickerwisp, and fewer relevant activations, maybe I should run fucking Torpor OrbNot really serious there.
I'm also open to ramp to land existing hate more quickly, but came up empty. Exploration was hit-and-miss. Fertile Ground seems meh.
The card you want is Torpor Orb I believe.I play GWu RiP-Helm Enchantress that's less focused on the engine, so I can play 4X Humility in my 75, which is a big part of my game plan against D&T and Elves. So, the strategies and soft spots don't overlap w/ trad Enchantress 100%, but they overlap enough.
The Top ban has opened up a bit of SB space and I'm brainstorming about Elves options. Humility's great, but can be slow, so I'm hoping to find something I can jam more quickly.
First consideration: Nullifies the Reclamation Sage/Wirewood Symbiote combo, which Humility does. Is there nothing else that does, besides creatures (not a good fit) and sweepers (no candidates)?
- It has to cost less than 4, even though it'll be Decay bait
There are things like Authority of the Consuls that cost 1 and will slow them down, but won't stick around, and aren't needed against many other decks
- There are options that partially shut off Sage/Symbiote
Engineered Plague: will get hit by Sage, but Sage'll die; would require
Cursed Totem: grabbed by E. Tutor too; hits D&T; shuts down Symbiote but it'll be back on once Sage hits knocks off Totem
- I'd like it to hit another matchup that needs help, e.g. D&T, Storm, BGx, tempo, etc.
tldr: Any (faster) Elves tech besides Humility that won't get eaten by Sage/Symbiote?
Any other worthy bridges to Humility, if that doesn't exist?
Actually, looking at new D&T lists with Recruiter, Prelate and Flickerwisp, and fewer relevant activations, maybe I should run fucking Torpor Orb
I'm also open to ramp to land existing hate more quickly, but came up empty. Exploration was hit-and-miss. Fertile Ground seems meh.
Could Torpor Orb work? Not an enchantment, but still Etutorable. Would shut down Visionary and Craterhoof too I believe.First consideration: Nullifies the Reclamation Sage/Wirewood Symbiote combo, which Humility does. Is there nothing else that does, besides creatures (not a good fit) and sweepers (no candidates)?
edit: too slow haha
Sweet dude! Looks awesome! I am glad somebody (else) is thinking outside the box (BUGs, lol) in Legacy. Have you ever toyed with Enduring Ideal?
I also think at least 1 Karakas is a good idea because of Leovold.
Add this to the list of cards that make me go "how is there not an enchantment version of that yet?".
I recorded some matches on MTGO with Enchantress.
Decklist
Main
1 Bayou
10 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Replenish
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Banishing Light
1 Carpet of Flowers
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
2 Sylvan Library
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
The fetches should have all been Windswept Heaths
Side
1 Banishing Light
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Karmic Justice
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Worship
The Leylines didn't help out as much as I hoped they would. Worship almost never came in, but I think it still deserves a spot. Choke and Carpet were the MVPs. I think I'd replace the Idyllic Tutor with a Sterling Grove, but I've been in the situation where I have Solitary Confinement up and no enchantments to cast, and it keeps Solitary Confinement going.
I played against (sorry about the audio):
1. Storm (2-1) - I should have lost, but they didn't hold priority when casting Infernal Tutor... Game 1, I was a bad at identifying what I was up against. Game 2, they scooped to Leyline, and Game 3 was a misplay on their part.
2. Splinter Twin (1-2) - I lost. Game 1, I had no clue what I was up against. I put them on Show n Tell. Game 2, they combo'd off. Game 3, I wish I brought in Worship. Games 2 and 3, they Surgicaled my enchantress effects. I misplayed game 3, and attacked Jace instead of the player. They bolted my Doomwake twice to death, and I couldn't get any removal spells.
3. Grixis Delver (2-1) - I won. I felt bad because the game wouldn't let them use Deathrite Shaman to pay for Sphere of Safety. With the earlier stealing a win, I conceded game 2, and won game 3. This match-up is in our favor from my understanding. Carpet of Flowers generated mana like there was no tomorrow. EDIT: Deathrite Shaman cannot pay for attack costs because it's not a mana ability. Explanation
4. Infect (2-1) - I won. Elephant Grass and Sphere of Safety were the MVPs. They had Krosan Grip, but Sphere of Safety and Choke stalled game 3 out enough for me to get Emrakul. For a few minutes after this game, I regretted playing Solitary Confinement over Banishing Light, but I realized the result of them Krosan Gripping my Enchantment would be the same.
5. Grixis Delver (2-1). I won. Game 3 was too close for comfort. Game 1, I kept a bad hand hoping to draw something good, but I didn't. Game 2, it looks like they kept too many can trips and counters. Game 3 they got me down to 4, and I didn't want to fetch because they kept red open so I didn't want to die to bolt. Sphere of Safety and Choke worked really well together. They played Deathrite Shaman, and then had a major misplay of Wasting my land when I had Karmic Justice out. This allowed me to stall long enough to get out Solitary Confinement. I say "that's not a misplay" in the video, but I confused misplay and misclick for a moment.
I tried playing Cast Out before recording this. Being a 4 drop vs 3 drop actually made a big difference in most Game 1's where I had it, but couldn't cast it. I misplayed quite a bit. I think there was one moment where I could have sequenced correctly and got an Enchantress into play. I also think I have a habit of dumping my hand when given the chance. I didn't realize Leyline of the Void doesn't exile their library when it enters, big mistake on my part.
Some of the games made me wish I had Rest in Peace instead, so I might try out RiP+Helm sometime soon.
4-1 is still pretty good, I played on MTGO myself and getting 5-0 is nearly impossible with a non-cantrip deck like Enchantress (you'll at least die 1-2 rounds just to your own deck shitting on you)
And yeah you shouldn't concede to that DRS situation, although I can see your reasoning if you believed it was really a bug. Glad you still won that round!
I had the same situation once against Belcher with Elephant Grass, I was at 2 life and he had LED but still couldn't pay for Grass. LED is a mana ability,but because it can only be activated when you have priority it still can't pay for Grass. I learned that exception just from playing on MODO so despite all the bugs the rule enforcement is really useful at times.
Carpet of Flowers is indeed a boss against any blue deck that doesn't run Leovold
I've found it lacking in power only against BUG with either basics (Aluren) or lots of Bayous (4 Hymn BUG Delver) as they may fetch non-islands + DRS and leave you with a bad card + no mana if you relied on it in your opening hand.
Also not happy to hear Cast Out underperformed, I expected the CMC4 to be a liability indeed but still hoped it'd be great with our mana ramp.
Just started playing Enchantress a couple days ago and am really enjoying it.
Anyone had any success splashing blue for Back to Basics? I've found that Choke is really good when it's good, and having that effect against a majority of decks and just tuning the deck correctly seems very big. For me, Sanctum waits quite a bit before it comes down anyway (not sure how everyone else plays it but I tend to save it til at least turn 3 if there are other options) but going off can still be Sanctum activation into Sanctum for Emarakul or something similar.
Just a thought. Wouldn't help against Elves or Storm, really, but most of the time one turn can be the difference between winning or losing with this deck, and having one-use lands can slow decks down enough that it matters.
I guess if you're in blue, Energy Field looks like an attractive option but then you're forced into Rest in Peace-Helm of Obedience wincon.
I played that version at GP Prague last summer and despite a good 3-0 start I ended the day 3-6(partially due to punts like forgetting to T0 drop my Leyline against Storm etc
I think I only resolved BtB once or twice, against Eldrazi but they managed to still kill me with it on the field - the creatures they already had on the board were enough.
This is still very insufficient data to gauge the usefulness of it tho
I haven't considered it in a black Doomwake shell yet as there you'd splash for BtB only I guess? Or possibly Leovold + 1 Mindbreak Trap in the board against Storm or so, could be worth the slots if you're already in those colors anyway.
In theory it looks like a great combination with Elephant Grass type effects, possibly even Suppression Field to completely tax their mana bases, just thinking aloud here.
Although it would force you into 4 colors, and one of the things I think makes Enchantress semi-viable is its resilient mana base. So becoming more vulnerable to Wasteland is never a good thing for the deck, as it can't afford to stumble in the first few turns if you have an opening hand of 1-2 nonbasics.
Sadly BtB was too expensive on MTGO for my budget at the time when I was still grinding Enchantress there, sold out now but I did consider trying it out. Just never got around to it.
It seems a bit cheaper right now, probably because only Miracles ran it, + Eldrazi has waned in popularity
yeah, it's not the cheapest card for sure.
Another thought is that without Top in the format, having 4-of Enlightened Tutor seems much better than it used to be.
Having a "Splash" be relegated to Utopia Sprawls seems decent if it's only 1-of one card, and if you're feeling constrained, 1 Tropical Island. One Bayou and one Doomwake have been just fine in testing, and most of the time I just end up searching Basic Forest and ramping with Sprawls since it nets cards. That in combination with 4-of Tutor and having a "wish" type strategy that allows us to find what we need seems very good.
It becomes a little difficult since RIP/Helm seems like the best wincon for a deck where Sanctum could be turned off, the problem being that I'd also kind of want to run Replenish and that's quite the nonbo. I'll experiment with some combination of Energy Field, RIP, Helm, and Back to Basics, and probably cut Doomwake to see what happens. I have a feeling that having some kind of simple transformative sideboard from one wincon into another might be the way to go for solidity against the meta, because it seems Enchantress likes things in pairs or threes.
Yeah the first time I ran Doomwake, I had a strange split of strategies/wincons that apparently worked out:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12125&d=269540&f=LE
Against Elves I'd board in Doomwake (got me out of a nasty Gaddock Teeg problem) and replace a land with Bayou, against DnT I'd just add the Bayou for +1 land which never hurts in that matchup.
Against GY-synergy decks (or random jank) I'd cut Replenish for the Rip-Helm like in the QF against Dark Maverick. Gotta admit I was very lucky there, facing lethal on board and topdecking Helm with just enough mana on board to steal the win.
The list is still otherwise outdated, it was the first time playing the deck after a 2-3 year hiatus so I was still looking for the perfect build. (never went back to Horizon Canopy f.ex.), but it still seemed a good example of what you proposed
I haven't tried this 3-way split strategy anymore afterwards, but sometimes still a 2-way split usually running Doomwake-Replenish main, with Leyline Helm or Rip Helm in the SB (but Doomwake not as a SB card anymore in either case)
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14340&d=285643
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13894&d=282166
But despite looking cute, IIRC on MTGO I never managed to actually pull off a win this way - if I stuck a Leyline against Lands or Reanimator, I'd either win a totally other way (never finding Helm) or lose along the way.
So apart from that win against Maverick Helm might as well not have been there, and running Rest in Peace in a sideboard of a Replenish deck without adding a Helm is probably worth it as well. But if you're on the crazy amount of 4!! E-Tutors I think the upside is bigger than in my builds with only 0-1 Tutors.
Haven't had time to watch the videos yet, but do you stream Enchantress? or just recorded these videos 1 time randomly? I'd love to watch people play Enchantress once in a while so I can maintain/update my knowledge of the deck while I'm currently not playing it myself.
(and possibly discuss difficult play scenarios etc)
EDIT: guess I found you on Twitch under 16km, hope you don't only stream when I'm sleeping
I was going to say, I probably wouldn't run a 2-card combo without having some kind of tutor in there for good measure. My current list is inaccessible at the moment, but I will post it when I can get to it, I think the search aspect of Sterling Grove is grossly underestimated but obviously Grove is necessary to keep intact against a significant number of decks, so having ETutor in abundance is pretty good.
A good example that's popped up occasionally is I'm slightly going off with 2 Enchantress effects out and I need to draw an Enchantment as my next card or I have to stop. Most likely, I need to draw and find something like Solitary at that point... With 5 mana available and two cards (a 1CMC Enchantment and Tutor) I can cast ETutor, Draw into what I searched for plus one card, cast Solitary and end the turn with three cards in hand. Same goes for finding things like RIP, Helm, O-Ring-ish stuff, whatever. Tutor is super sick and lets the deck diversify as much as possible while cutting multiples. The issue with that is that Replenish is almost a necessity since we run into Abrupt Decay and other enchantment-kill stuff and losing a 1-of a card that is great against a specific matchup is pretty horrible.
I'm trading my moxen + lotus in for a few of these cards and am gonna roll up a few different things to see what sticks. As far as a Blue wincon, we have Sphinx's Tutelage ;) probably not good, but one spell cast = 2 cards milled with one Enchantress, one spell cast = 4 cards milled with 2 enchantresses, etc, combined with the way we can go off, it would be glorious. I'll invest .08 TIX to give it a shot, why not :)
Last edited by Dumpsterac1d; 05-01-2017 at 05:12 PM.
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