It's hard to say what's going to happen in the next few weeks to a month, but the common expectations are an increase in Delver decks, and older combo like Storm and Elves. Graffdigger's Cage is looking really good, and reanimator is still something to worry about.Originally Posted by Nikedemos
I think that Monastery Mentor is such an egregiously powerful card to not see any play in some sort of shell, so I'll probably put 1 or 2 Dread of Night for a bit. Also good against D&T, wherever that places itself in the metagame.
This is a 5-0 BUG Delver list from MODO on April 27th: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...-27#nekoyama_-
Thoughts?
Against what deck(s) do the Ensnaring Bridges come in? SnT, Sneak Attack and Reanimator only? Or is there actually some MU where the game plan is to "go hellbent" using Liliana, sit behind the Bridge and win with Jace TMS?
I doubt it. That seems terrible.
I think this is probably the 'level 0' deck I'm going to start with. The Elves matchup isn't great but it's fixable, and I like being ahead in the Delver mirror.
4-0'ed FNM last night with the most boring list ever:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dead Weight
Round 1 was against Sneak and Show (2-0). He mulliganed to 6 on the play game 1...and then I Hymned him, played a Goyf, and Hymned him again, then locked him under Liliana and he can't find the Sneak Attack to get out of it. Game 2 I Delvered him pretty hard. I did get Blood Mooned, but the damage had already been done. My round 2 opponent was on Elves (2-0). Game 1 I have turn 1 Deathrite into turn 2 Goyf + Wasteland for his Bayou and stop him from getting a Symbiote online with removal. He can't recover when I counter his Natural Order. Game 2 I keep removal and cantrips and find a Goyf after Hymning him and killing some Elves. We end up in Deathrite standoff compounded by a Wirewood Symbiote standoff, but draw-go with Leovold out favors me. I eventually find a Delver and start flying over. He tries to come back with GSZs and a Natural Order, but all of the nothing left my hand stacked with Forces with Deluge in reserve. He doesn't come back.
Round 3 against D&T is unremarkable (2-1). I eke out a win game 1 on the back of multiple Hymns and timely removal, then lose game 2 to an Aether Vial draw that punishes me for keeping a land-heavy hand that keeps drawing lands. I win game 3 on the back of Pithing Needle, a turn 1 Delver, and removal for days. I win a close 3 game set against UG Post in round 4, where the only remarkable thing is the number of Miscalculations my opponent is playing. The Post players in Philly tend to be quite innovative and test the deck a lot, so they tend to be properly prepared. I win games 1 and 3 the turn before something stupid happens.
I might mess with the sideboard a bit but I'm very happy with the maindeck.
Last edited by btm10; 05-01-2017 at 09:07 AM.
Congrats, I really like the maindeck Spell Pierce. Whenever I've played one it's always been really impressive in the first game.
How do you feel about 12 creatures? I've never gone below 13 at risk of feeling "threat-light". But without Terminus in the picture, maybe we can we drop the heavy top-end of Tombstalker.
I've been interested in testing actual Counterspell because whenever I build a list I end up at 59 cards and can't figure out a reliable one-of.
EDIT: I didn't notice the double Leovold in the sideboard at first -- it's a real strong card, and maybe my comment about too-few creatures isn't as valid now.
I know there's all the hype and temptation to jump on the Leovold train, but why not have him in the main?
Thanks! I love Counterspell, but UU can actually be challenging sometimes since you almost always fetch Sea into Bayou which lets you cast all of your 1 and 2 mana spells and means that any third mana source lets you cast Liliana. Years ago I had considered Countersquall out of the board as reach for combo and control matchups, but it ended up being less reliable than Negate. I think hard counters are great sometimes, but they aren't as reliable as they'd ideally be. I've been on and off of the 13th and 14th creature for a couple of years, but I don't think the meta is fair enough to cut Lilianas or the Spell Pierce, nor are decks like Elves and D&T rare enough to cut a Fatal Push.
He's great in specific matchups and is sometimes extremely clunky. Liliana can be clunky, but she's devastating (as opposed to merely good) against opposing creature decks while being only slightly worse than Leovold against combo.
EDIT: A shorter way to saying this might just be that Leo needs support staff. Sometimes you're using him to stop combo opponents from using cantrips to reassemble after you've stopped their first attempt or shredded their hand, other times he stops fair decks from digging for removal and punishes them for killing your creatures. It's definitely him vs. Liliana for the maindeck 3-drop slot. The downside to Leovold is that he's much easier to interact with (and marginally harder to cast) than Liliana is, and the situations where he's better (when your opponent topdecks a cantrip) are much easier for you to fight through than the situations where Liliana is better (staring down an Angler, Tombstalker, or Marit Lage).
Last edited by btm10; 04-29-2017 at 10:51 PM.
After about 10 days of the Divining Top ban, the top 5-0 decks on MODO have been 1) Grixis Delver, 2) Storm [variants of ANT and TES], and 3) Sneak and Show. It's a small sample size, but they're looking to be the upcoming decks to beat, in some form or another.
D&T is always underrepresented online, and I'm worried about Stoneblade since there're a lot of Tundras looking for a home. Things are going to change in the coming weeks as the meta settles more, but if these 3 are somewhere on top BUG Delver is looking like it's in a good spot.
Hymn to Tourach is a hell of a magic card, and it's something that none of these decks are happy to see. Leovold, Emissary of Trest speaks for himself at this point, and though it's not the most delver-style card, it needs to be answered ASAP.
Last edited by Ixbpoqdxl; 05-05-2017 at 02:54 PM.
This is exactly where I am at. I really think BUG Delver with double black form Hymn and Liliana is very well positioned. There is a great clock, great disruption, and great removal spells. We also get sideboard options to help against a number of decks. PLUS what other tempo deck gets to jam two Liliana of the Veil maindeck to handle True-Name Nemesis and other trouble creatures.
Sorry, not a huge value add post, but I am just very excited for how BUG Delver stacks up in Legacy right now.
I really like the look of this list! I'm curious about the -1 Underground Sea +1 Tropical Island in the manabase, though. Was the extra Tropical ever awkward in a 4 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Liliana of the Veil deck? I've been meaning to add it as a fourth green source to make casting Leovolds easier but I worry about not being able to cast double black spells because of it.
Yeah, I think BUG is the best-positioned Delver deck at the moment. Grixis is a lot less expensive to actually put together, but BUG is a lot more powerful (if marginally worse against Baleful Strix).
Thanks! I like the second Trop since it makes you a little more resistant to Wasteland. Sea and Bayou are your baseline duals, but sometimes you want to prioritize protecting blue mana/Daze lands in the Delver mirror or against D&T while still having access to your green cards.
Hey, y'all, I'm testing decks for GP Vegas, and after a few weeks of testing, BUG Delver is one I'm strongly considering. I've been playing BUG Midrange, 4C Delver, and Czech Pile for a while, but I'm thinking that BUG Delver is a better choice because the clock is better, and it (should be) favored against Grixis.
I have some questions about lists:
- What's the consensus on Leovold and Jace? BUG Delver was always more midrange-y, but additional 3- and 4-drops in this faster meta could prove clunky.
- 19 or 20 lands? I guess the number of 3-drops helps answer that. Currently I'm on 19 and playing 2 Lili and 1 Leovold.
- How many sweeper effects are you playing in your 75? Do you think a maindeck Golgari Charm is too narrow? I figure it hits Elves, most of DnT (which, I think, will be popular in Vegas), turn 1 Empty tokens (if TES becomes the Storm deck of choice), TNNs, Young Pyromancer and his Elemental friends, and even Blood Moon. It does little against Eldrazi, the mirror, and Lands, of course.
- How often are you boarding out Hymns, and generally how many?
Thanks!
I play one Leovold and zero Jace. Both are pretty difficult to cast in the face of Port or Wasteland, and they also are both answered by Red Blast. They're really powerful cards that need to be answered ASAP, but the reliability of casting them and having them on board for X amount of turns is my issue with the cards.
I'm currently at 19 lands and two 3-drops in the main: one Lili, and one Leovold. There's a Clique in the board, but it's something that I could cut once the meta settles. If you plan on playing Jace, it's a pretty good idea to play 4 Underground Seas and 20 lands.- 19 or 20 lands? I guess the number of 3-drops helps answer that. Currently I'm on 19 and playing 2 Lili and 1 Leovold.
Golgari Charm answers a ton of problem cards, including True-Name Nemesis alongside what you've said already. Also gets around Mother of Runes' protection. Two is a good plan, or two of the following cards (depending on if you play TNN yourself): Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, or Marsh Casualties.- How many sweeper effects are you playing in your 75? Do you think a maindeck Golgari Charm is too narrow? I figure it hits Elves, most of DnT (which, I think, will be popular in Vegas), turn 1 Empty tokens (if TES becomes the Storm deck of choice), TNNs, Young Pyromancer and his Elemental friends, and even Blood Moon. It does little against Eldrazi, the mirror, and Lands, of course.
Hymn boarding is like Daze. It's at it's best on the play, and okay on the draw, so you keep a few if you're considering cutting. Obviously it's gone against Reanimator or Dredge, but I tend to keep 3-4 against midrange decks or delver mirrors. It's a mediocre top-deck, and if you expect it to be a long round, cutting one or two is a good trade if you have high-impact cards to bring in, like Painful Truths.- How often are you boarding out Hymns, and generally how many?
It seems like we're working on the same decks.
I think 19 vs. 20 lands is a mixture of risk tolerance (19 can be quite tight with more than 2-3 3-or-higher drops, but you'll flood more with 20) and how grindy you want to get postboard. In the current meta I'd lean toward 19 maindeck lands and a utility land (like Creeping Tar Pit) in the board if you're boarding in Jace or planning on grinding very hard postboard. Crucible and/or Loam are also appealing in that case. I like having access to powerful cards n postboard games, but 2UU is a ton of mana, and TNN, Leovold, and Pyroblast all make Jace potentially quite awkward.
I'm still on 2 but could easily see wanting a third (probably over Invasive Surgery). I don't hate MD Golgari Charm, but I think it's a meta call.How many sweeper effects are you playing in your 75? Do you think a maindeck Golgari Charm is too narrow? I figure it hits Elves, most of DnT (which, I think, will be popular in Vegas), turn 1 Empty tokens (if TES becomes the Storm deck of choice), TNNs, Young Pyromancer and his Elemental friends, and even Blood Moon. It does little against Eldrazi, the mirror, and Lands, of course.
Against Dredge and Reanimator, and little else. In non-combo matchups I like to move my Force/Daze ratio around to optimize my postboard plan and based on play/draw, but I view Hymn as pretty essential across the board. I haven't played the 4c Control matchup from the Delver side yet, but even there on the draw I'd rather have Hymn than Force, I think.- How often are you boarding out Hymns, and generally how many?
Personally not a fan of either. I could see running one Leovold in the board, but I prefer the fast clock and flying that tombstalker provides.
The three drop I am really considering for the board is Liliana, the Last Hope. Repeatable removal for elves and D&T. It might be a bit too "cute" but I want to try it before GP Vegas.
I tested Lili, Last Hope in Czech Pile, and she was great in certain matchups. But then again, that was when Miracles was prevalent; the ultimate was unbeatable. -2ing to get back Snapcasters and Strix, then +1ing to negate a creature was gas against fair decks, but I'm not sure if that's where Delver wants to be. If all they have is a Baleful Strix on board, then yeah, LLH is gonna be good. But I think tempo decks want to be more aggressive. I haven't played her in Delver, though, so I could be wrong. Maybe I'll sleeve up one for an FNM or something - there's a preponderance of DnT by me.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'd like to try a Loam in the sideboard. Anyone run the Cabal Pit plan? How's that been? I probably won't play Jace 'cuz I'd rather skimp on lands. Clique is an interesting sideboard card. I've loved Clique in other decks, so I wonder how it's been for those who run it in Delver. I've had very little success with Tar Pit, especially if Pyroblast is everywhere. No more Miracles makes it worse, too.
I've always liked Clique in Delver. It's at its best in matches where Goyf is bad, so -X Goyf, +X Leovold+Clique is often a good way to approach sideboarding for combo and control.
The place I like Liliana, the Last Hope most is against Czech Pile since it's such a clean way to deal with Baleful Strix, but she's good against Elves and D&T too.
This is the last Malimujo's list.
He play, as always, 1 Tombstalker in main and a nice Dead Weight in sideboard.
The only card we can't see here is Vendilion Clique (anyway a very good card in this meta imho, same for Leovold obv).
After some test the deck looks very solid with this 75 and, obv, Jace + Lili vs some decks give us a lot of control and 2 different plan in mid/late game vs the decks who can obligate us to find a different approach then Delver.
Team America
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
1 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Dead Weight
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
Why 1x Snapcaster on the SB? Wondering where you bring that in.
"Everything is better topless"
I try 1x Snapcaster in side.
Very nice.
I bring it in vs control and combo, where is possible to flashback some very strong cards like Thoughseize or Flusterstorm and put into board a 2/1 wiithout tapping out in my turn.
Snapcaster is one of my favorite cards and, in this meta, have a strong impact vs this decks.
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