The banning of Sensei's Divining Top has gotten me excited to sleeve up Tundras for the first time since 2009. I never enjoyed playing with Counterbalance, nor have I been impressed with Stoneforge Mystic in blue decks since Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay gave BUG decks the tools to do everything that Stoneblade did, but better. Miracles eliminated the need to develop the broader UWx Control for the 2017 Legacy metagame, leaving it lagging badly behind other major archetypes once it lost Top.
I set out to try to build a non-Stoneblade UWx deck with the following goals:
1. As much as possible, the deck should avoid sliding into midrange as it's likey to be worse at playing the attacking and blocking game than BUG or Blade decks. Generally speaking, we aren't using creatures to both stabilize the board and win the game. Creatures should have a card advantage function or interact with our opponent beyond power and toughness.
2. Have an overwhelming win condition. If we're trying to drag the game out and overpower other fair decks, we need to actually overpower them, not merely exhaust their resources. While combo and mana denial strategies force a lot of midrange and control decks to use similar closers, we should be very selective with the few slots we dedicate to threats.
3. Prepare for combo. Counterbalance gave control a lot of play against combo since with enough Counterbalances and Top, most combo decks could be completely locked out, giving control a way to not lose to a combo deck that could reassemble before being killed. Much of the sideboard should be dedicated to the combo matchup, but there should still be sufficient interaction in the maindeck to have a better combo matchup than a similarly built midrange deck.
With those factors in mind I built a crude UWr shell last week and tested it 10 matches each against stock Grixis and BUG Delver lists, and then tested UWr Stoneblade against the same lists. The list derived from that testing is below. UWr Stoneblade was about even against the Delver decks (5-5 against Grixis and 4-6 against BUG, with the matches themselves being 2-0 or 0-2 only once for Grixis and twice for BUG), while the list below was favored (6-4 against both, with 5 2-0s, all but one (against Grixis) going for the control deck ). Obviously this is quite preliminary, but I'm confident that it's a reasonable starting point.
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Spell Snare
1 Preordain
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgement
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Stony Silence
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
Last edited by btm10; 05-02-2017 at 12:10 AM.
Definitely a good concept. After spending a year on various Stoneblade decks to tighten up my game, I'm hesitant to think that Stoneblade will magically be well-positioned now that Miracles is gone. Additionally, just the thought of Fact or Fiction being used in blue-based control again makes me giddy. That said, I have a couple questions:
1) Which UWr Stoneblade list did you compare this to? The more stock list that is more creature heavy and midrange, or the list Anuraag is currently running that basically uses SFM as a way to fetch a win-con?
2) You're running Clique and Keranos but no Karakas? Maybe I'm missing the blatantly obvious, but is there reasoning for no Karakas?
1) Somewhere in between. I ran the full 4 SFM/2 Equipment, but I didn't run TNN (or Lingering Souls in Esper). I tried various flash creature make the equipment better, with the one closest to what I wanted being 4 Snapcaster Mage and 3 (Clique+Spell Queller). Once you're just running 2 SFM for 1 Batterskull, I really don't see the point in running a 3 card package when you can run 3 'real' win conditions (or 2 wincons and more interaction).Originally Posted by Ruta Barracuda
2) I want 2 basic Plains and Wastelands more than I want Karakas. I may even consider running the 3rd Wasteland before the first Karakas. Also, Clique is realistically your only target for it since it takes Jace+Keranos+Clique+Snapcaster Mage to wake Keranos up to interact with Karakas.
EDIT: Fixed typo.
Last edited by btm10; 05-02-2017 at 12:10 AM.
Thanks for the reply - makes sense. Good luck in the testing - if I can find time, I might do some as well.
A couple things: Your manabase seems shaky, and you also don't have a real endgame. Yes, JTMS and such are all powerful cards but the issue with this sort of control deck is that you are treading water very early and will often just die before your cards can convert into any sort of advantage. Miracles had 2 highlights associated with it, a threatening lock in the early game that created virtual card advantage, and then an endgame revolving around actual card advantage that was uninteractable. These lists, and things like it, have neither of those things, which is why you're seeing a lot of Stoneforge Mystic decks come out of the woodwork: It's something to do early that threatens the opponent and takes initiative, but it's also something you can use later to convert a card into a win condition. This deck is missing the former, and thus decks will be able to get under you a lot because of how clunky it can get.
I'm still soul searching myself, and I have a few ideas, but I think the baseline has to have some sort of early threatening set of permanents in order to take some semblence of a initiative. This is Legacy, where development during turns 1-3 are so utterly important, and multiple CS's and 1 for 1 trades while a lot of decks are playing multiple cards in those early turns with no real punishment anymore is a recipe for implosion.
Keep testing it, and I think you'll find a lot of this to be accurate as you play against the big 3 of Storm/Elves/Delver. I use this Big 3 as my litmus test for this Legacy format, at least for the next few weeks going into SCG Louisville, and ANYTHING I build or work on HAS to be reasonable vs those 3 decks. I have not found anything that satisfies all 3 in a manner that I'm happy with, sadly, so the search continues.
Thanks for your response. I basically agree with your premise, especially in terms of benchmarks. I think we have to pin down a definition of 'reasonable' if that's going to be the benchmark. Favored against all three seems unlikely, but my testing so far suggests that at least Delver is a totally acceptable matchup (Currently just under 60 mwp against Grixis and around 55 against BUG). Hopefully I'll be able to test against Storm tonight. I'm somewhat concerned about having a critical mass of interaction for them, but I'm fine going in to my first test matches with the confidence that my good matches are actually good, and that I can afford to shift numbers around if need be. The BUG matchup is a hurdle we should also clear. Unless we get to be the most controlling deck in the format, I see little reason to eschew Deathrite Shaman.
As for the manabase, can you be more specific? This could be a difference arising from the decks we've been playing recently (I've been on various BUG, Grixis, and 4c decks), but this manabase has been incredibly solid in my testing. There's an argument for cutting the Wastelands for additional fetches (or a fetch and a basic) but I suspect that having clean outs to utility lands and various forms of the Dark Depths combo is better than the extra 'real' lands on balance.
Finally, while I agree (broadly) on the need for proactive plays, the two (obvious) options of Stoneforge Mystic and Standstill leave a lot to be desired. As good as Jitte is in midrange decks, Stoneforge is just embarrassing against modern midrange and combo decks, and is often even underwhelming against Delver. Batterskull is even more resource intensive than Gideon or Keranos against fair decks since they can almost always beat a single Germ token. On the other hand, Standstill is pretty attractive if Shardless doesn't become competitive again, but can have serious problems against combo, especially game 1, and especially if red is absent or a tertiary color. The shell above isn't playing threats at 2 and 3 CMC, but all of the 4 and 5 CMC spells are so high-impact that they take over games on their own and are extremely taxing for opponents to answer. I'm also going to keep looking for the optimal configuration for a control deck, but I simply don't think that 2-3 mana permanents exist in UWx that are legitimately competitive and aren't Standstill, and I don't like Standstill until combo is better contained.
Agree with Stoneforge Mystic not being a strong enough proactive play. Against the big decks nowadays - Delver, Elves, Storm, Sneak Show, it feels lacking.
Standstill is actually alot better than i initially expected, but too clunky to be a 4 of.
See the Jeskai shell i'm working on, which is quite close to what you currently have.
Main
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgement
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Standstill
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
3 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Pyroclasm
Comments
1) 4 bolts seem necessary, given the numerous Deathrites around, and our high reliance on Snapcaster mage for card quality.
2) Having that many 1 mana removal makes Standstill a more reliable turn 2 play.
3) Clique only feels good against Storm / Combo & other hard control decks (which aren't going to be common moving forward), so dropped them to the side
4) Deck is very slow. Controlling board isnt overly difficult, but closing out games are.
5) i really want to squeeze in a blood moon somewhere in the 15, but not sure if its necessary
6) Initally tested the deck with Mishra's factory, but dropped them. Fatal push and wastelands makes them really poor.
Matchups - compared to miracles (n=30)
1) Burn is a horrible matchup.
2) Eldrazi is still bad.
3) Infect is much easier.
4) Delver matchup feels 50-50. The bolts helps significantly. Wastelands give random wins. BUG feels easier than Grixis. Pyroclasm off the board makes alot of difference.
5) True Name Nemesis is an absolute pain, and is a must counter
6) Storm is not a horrible matchup. 4 bolts and snapcaster mage significantly weakens their Ad Nauseum. they have to respect bolt, SCM, bolt.
7) For some reason, have not come across Sneak Show.
We will probably never have another tier 1 permission style control deck in the format, but i'm hoping to tune this deck well enough to take down legacy FNMs and the occasional MTGO league.
What am I missing? Are you really suggesting playing standstill just to take a breath, hope that your opponents breaks it and doesn't play manland himself?
I don't think it's totally off-the-walls crazy to run Standstill without creature-lands, but I think you still want a larger manabase if that's the plan so you're less likely to end up discarding to hand size first. I actually find the removal of creature-lands from KZhang's list particularly strange given his problems with Young Pyromancer and how good Factory is against 1/1s. Running 7-8 colorless sources definitely makes three colors less appealing without going to 25-27 lands.
To KZhang's point on removal, I've tested 2 Lightning Bolt + 1 Forked Bolt as a fourth "sweeper" and thought it was fine. I'm surprised that you've found Grixis more difficult than BUG; I've had the opposite experience. Pyromancer is annoying, but Liliana and Hymn are serious beatings.
KZhang, I see where you're going with Clique being best against combo and in control mirrors, but I think that it's essential MD for several reasons. They provide the best game 1 clock against combo and don't require us to tap out for threats on our own turn, and the floor is Fog + disruption or additional filtering against non-combo, non-control decks, which is often good enough when the upside against more challenging game 1 matchups is so high. I'm quite likely to cut Gideon, probably for something interactive lower on the curve like an MD Kozilek's Return or a second EE, a second Keranos (who meets Minniehajj's criteria for an unbeatable late game), or cut him and Fact ot Fiction for a low-cost proactive threat like Minniehajj suggested. I'm not sure which of these is best, but Gideon doesn't play well enough with the rest of the deck to make the cut.
Double post, but new list and more testing notes.
I played some open games (the weekly I went to didn't fire) this week which led to revisions
Storm
I've only tested against ANT so far and while it seems to be a little in the favor, it's definitely not something we can't deal with. MD Clique is amazing and I feel extremely happy to have built to this plan rather than to SFM. Meddling Mage has been underwhelming and should probably be Canonist. Currently 3-3 in matches but down 6-8 in games.
Elves
Only one match so far, but I did win it. The testing against Death and Taxes helped here since it led to the MD Kozilek's Return, which was quite good.
D&T
Down 2-3 in matches so far but it seems manageable; 6-8 in games. I haven't gone back to it since adding the MD Return. Obvious problems are Vial and Cavern, though Stony Silence is great out of the board. I'm keeping the Counterspells postboard but cutting the other countermagic.
4 Color Loam
This one surprised me with how good it felt. If you can stop Liliana from ultimating and minimize the Punishing Fire engine they're just casting a bunch of clunky creatures that die to our removal or get countered. Chalice is a pain, but they have way more garbage than we do in game 1 (with Deluge/Decay/Cabal Pit/Maze of Ith). If you resolve Keranos they probably can't win. 3-0 in matches, 6-2 in games.
Current List:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Spell Snare
1 Preordain
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgement
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Stony Silence
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
I'm considering cutting Fact or Fiction for a second Keranos because he's been so overwhelming in the end game. If you resolve him after cleaning up the board against Death and Taxes, BUG/Czech Pile, or Delver he accomplishes even more than Jace. On the other hand, FoF is also great and you'll rarely lose after resolving it. It's also an excellent eot bait spell to cear the way for Jace or Keranos.
DnT MU Depends heavily on the skill level of the pilot. They should be favored. I'm certain, on average draws, assuming DnT would resolve Vial/Cavern early enough, your planeswalkers are just dead cards in your hand.
Why isn't there any results against Grixis YP deck, with or without Stifle? That deck attacks your Mana base, your hand, go nuts with YP, direct damage via Bolts. That should be the primary concern.
As a whole, I feel it's too optimistic to be able to make the claim that you'll be able to stabilize and then cast your God/Planeswalker. In the current meta and without CB, there is a serious need in life-gaining. to make-up for the life loss at the early game.
The deck at its current version still looks weak against Lands.
Notes on BUG and Grixis Delver (with Therapy) are further up the page. Grixis is easier than BUG, both are favorable. Of course the Lands matchup is bad. You can contort the manabase to include 3-4 Wastelands or you can cut sideboard cards to add Blood Moons and hurt other matchups. I think this is the correct balance.
Some thoughts off the top of my head. All choices that I didn't comment on seem cool.
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique --> Not sure about this choice. You don't seem to face Combo-infested meta, so.. SB material?
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Spell Snare
1 Preordain ---> Could be a Tundra. 20 land is too little for all those four-drops.
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgement --> could be EE #2.
1 Fact or Fiction ----> should be JTMS, especially since you're light on wincons. Don't fall prey to the danger of cewl things
1 Kozilek's Return ---> Not sure. Feels like a bad SV.
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms ---> only really works with SDT. I'd go with Gideon.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast ---> You're soft to Burn. I could totally see a BeB in addition - especially with your SCMs
2 Stony Silence ---> With 4 SCMs, I'd suggest going with 2 Disenchant. Should suffice.
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Kozilek's Return ---> How about a funky Terminus. Against Swarm Aggro, you don't care about when you draw it.
1 Pithing Needle ---> Seems overkill. 2 Disenchant, 1 EE, 1 CJ make it more or less obsolete.
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
EDIT: Here's my suggestion:
4 SCM
2 Mentor/TNN/XYZ
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Gideon
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 BeB
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
2 Terminus
2 Disenchant
1 Vendilion Clique
Thanks for your suggestions. I tested some of those in the deck's earliest designs, but others I plan to try.
So far, I'm comfortable saying that I didn't like the 3 cmc, sorcery-speed creatures like Mentor and TNN. Mentor was more appealing in testing but it often puts you in a position of playing it with a hand full of reactive spells and being reliant on your opponent to let you make Monks and grow your team. I think a Mentor deck likely exists in UWR, but this isn't the right shell for it. Clique isn't perfect for Delver and midrange matchups, but I think the deck is improved more overall by biasing those slots toward combo. I don't have a fixed local meta (I bounce around between several LGS weeklies) so I try to build my dexks for a generic large event meta.
On the other hand, the third Jace is probably better than Fact or Fiction given the deck's low number of win conditions and made stabilizing slightly more reliable in a few test games yesterday. I haven't done enough testing to say it's definitely better, but having the third copy definitely lets you be a little more aggressive in using the first to do things like unsummon an opponent's last threat, and squeezing more value out of Jace is likely better than simply going ahead on cards. Gideon and Elspeth (Knight-Errant) were both tested in earlier iterations of the deck and while they each have their strengths (Gideon closes games more quickly and Elspeth is a more threatening source of inevitability and stabilizes the board better) neither locks fair decks out the way Keranos does. Even without Top to select whether you get a Bolt or two cards every draw step, 9 cantrips and 3 Jaces mean that you still get a lot of control over the top of your deck and either mode is almost invariably too much for creature decks to beat for more than a turn or two. He's also much more difficult to remove.
Choosing sweepers is somewhat similar. Verdict is great at what it does (and being uncounterable is a huge boost), but having an instant speed sweeper to pair with it gives the deck more flexibility. Terminus can do the same thing, but there's significant setup cost associated with doing it at instant speed. What K. Return doesn't kill that Verdict does (TNN, Leovold, Eldrazi, Tombstalker, and Angler) is offset by what being an instant gets you (creature-lands, blowouts in response to Natural Order or opponents trying to save creatures with from spot removal with Flickerwisp, overall mana efficiency). Explosives also helps pick up some of Return's slack against the 3 CMC threats.
Finally on the sideboard: I don't think a BEB is going to fix the Burn matchup. If it starts to gain serious meta share (which it should, but I don't think it will) I'd look at Warmth, CoP:Red, or Kitchen Finks before Blasts just because they're better hate. I was originally considering the Stony Silences as an angle of attack against Storm that had utility as generic artifact hate, but that might not be necessary. Cutting the Stony Silences and the Needle for a Disenchant opens up 2 sideboard slots, and I'm conflicted as to whether or put Blood Moons in for the Lands matchup or to add a second EE and another counter (Invasive Surgery/3rd Flusterstorm).
Have you considered Blessed Alliance? It helps against Burn (life gain & attacker sacrifice), Lands (attacker sacrifice), and not-Grixis Delver (life gain & attacker sacrifice). Additionally, From the Ashes or Ruination seem great with Snapcaster Mage.
btm10, if you're the person I think you are, I'm pretty sure we talked about using Accumulated Knowledge as a cheaper (2 mana!), instant speed way to get card advantage. Here's a list where I cut a few things (1 Ponder, 1 Preordain, 1 Supreme Verdict, 1 something else) to shove 4 of them into the deck, bringing maindeck Instants or spells with Flash to an acceptable 32/60. Something should be Ponder #4 but I'm not sure what it is.
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Council's Judgment
3 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Kozilek's Return
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 From the Ashes
1 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
Cutting a sweeper seems really bad even if I'm cutting Cliques and Keranos for a small Stoneforge package. I tried to make AK work in a Jeskai Mentor shell before - it's just way too slow and too vulnerable to Deathrite.
I'm exactly who you think I am.
There are a few cards that I think could reinvigorate this archetype a little bit, that need to be tested as a way to recover Tempo while also being proactive, which I believe is the lynchpin to be successful in today's competitive and efficient Legacy. The fundamental problem you are presented with in a control deck is that you need something to recover from the early game while also allowing us to overwhelm our opponent with powerful cards. Nothing bridges that gap between turns 1-3 and turns 6-10 anymore, and things like SFM and Standstill and such leave a LOT to be desired, as we've mentioned multiple times.
There have been a few cards that I think we need to seriously look at more, even if they seem dumb as concepts. I think they have a chance at stabilizing and pulling us ahead in the times of need. The cards are: Thing in the Ice, True-Name Nemesis, and Gideon of the Trials. My good friend Nicklas Lallo (ItIsUnfair) on mtgo is having some luck in working on TITI based control shells, and the UWR version is one he has not tested heavily. TITI and the shell built around it might just be enough to regain lost tempo enough to proceed into the lategame.
Draw-go control is simply not feasible, I don't think, as we simply don't have the efficient tools we need to "hang" with the big dogs, so to speak.
I like the idea of Thing in the Ice a lot, actually, even though it requires a fair amount of (proactive) support. It doesn't really fit in a UWR Control shell, but your point is well taken. It's probably awesome in Grixis.
I think my initial post can really be summed up by your comment: what are we doing in the midgame to capitalize on the opening we create on turns 1-3? BUG Control decks from ca. 2014 ran a pile of Planeswalkers to immediately take over the game once they established control, but UWr has much less impressive options at 3 CMC. I think a viable Stoneforge deck might exist, but it kely lies down the Spell Queller + Spellstutter Sprite path to make the equipment better. At 3 and 4 mana, we really only have a handful of proactive/take over the game plays that aren't Jace. Four mana Gideon and Elspeth both have their merits, and there are a host of weird (but not good) enchantments out there. Thopter/Sword gives us something to play toward, but it has plenty of vulnerabilities as well.
What does everyone think of the Nahiri->Emrakul win condition? I've played this list just at my local store's weekly events, but I like the list. It's a bit of a different take on it, and I do think there needs to be a supreme verdict somewhere in the 75 (which will require tweaking the mana base a bit as well).
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 True Name Nemesis
1 Blessed Alliance
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Blood Moon
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
SIDEBOARD
1 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear / Tear
Powerful, but extremely clunky. That's 5 4 mana cards....
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