[Deck] The Rock

[solnox]

You'd probably want another savannah if you want to cast judgement especially if you're going to lose Karakas. I really think taplands in this deck is a mistake as it feels super mana hungry where you want to optimize mana usage every turn and losing 1 turn is a huge feelbad

[Jain_Mor]

I really think taplands in this deck is a mistake as it feels super mana hungry where you want to optimize mana usage every turn and losing 1 turn is a huge feelbad

Man lands should be treated as 1 mana spells during deck construction, not lands. An uncounterable card filtering effect that finds you both a land and a half decent threat.

@SFM I played fnm last night cutting gsun package for more goyfs bobs lingering souls and sfm + bsk.

Went 3-1 beating D&T 2-0, BR reanimator 2-0, Aggro Loam, 2-0. Lost to another BR reanimator 0-2

Lingering souls were MVP, I felt silly not registering them for the GPT and if the meta settles into grindy creature decks + D&T I'll happily play 4 and be living the dream. SFM was fine.. wish she was hymn a lot of the time but double black is awkward on turn 2. Sculler is an option but is bad without mom.

Lingering souls + swords is probably the edge that this deck will have in the meta (plus zealous persecution and hatebears). However that will play into the rise of kolaghans command (plus decay I guess). BSK was fine but probably unecessary, so with 3 equip I think we lock jitte and SoFaI. 3rd option is:

SoLaS: Pro black good agains Marit Lage, Griselbrand and strix. Pro white against mom/d&t. Gives life gain and occasional card advantage (StP and drs kind of shit on it)
SoFaF: Pro black ^^. Pro green for getting past elves.. but jitte and sofai are better. Great against combo because it doesn't waste your tempo for the turn and makes them discard. However all equipment is mediocre against BR reanimator which is rising on the back of its good show n tell matchup... might need some leylines.

I think I'll try SoFaF first.

@Matt, dont forget to get me off liliana.. I think she's pretty good right now and the only threat + answer in the deck thats relevant against nearly all opponents.

[tescrin]

@Matt, dont forget to get me off liliana.. I think she's pretty good right now and the only threat + answer in the deck thats relevant against nearly all opponents.

SoBaM isn't too bad right now. I wouldn't use it against Grixis but not too many others are running Delve Dudes. It gets through TNN, Strix, DRS, Agent, Leo, Goyf, and any other BUG creature (in any of the decks) unless someone is being cute with Stalker/Angler. The mill doesn't do anything, but generating more sword carriers every swing seems alright. I can't test it yet since it hasn't arrived, but at $11, it seems testable.

Every once in awhile I look at Sword of Vengeance and someday I will be crazy enough to try it. Haste, trample, +2/0, First Strike.. drop-Goyf-equip would be a dream. I can't convince myself to run it or Lightning Greaves however. Someday...

[KoDiamonds]

You'd probably want another savannah if you want to cast judgement especially if you're going to lose Karakas. I really think taplands in this deck is a mistake as it feels super mana hungry where you want to optimize mana usage every turn and losing 1 turn is a huge feelbad

I might cut a Bayou for Scrubland since black mana is very important (Lilianas and Hymns) which will total out to 2 Bayous, 3 Scublands, and a Treetop. Well see though. Ill stick with the 3 Bayous 2 Scrublands first and see if its necessary since BG lands are nice with Deathrites.

Man lands should be treated as 1 mana spells during deck construction, not lands. An uncounterable card filtering effect that finds you both a land and a half decent threat.

@SFM I played fnm last night cutting gsun package for more goyfs bobs lingering souls and sfm + bsk.

Went 3-1 beating D&T 2-0, BR reanimator 2-0, Aggro Loam, 2-0. Lost to another BR reanimator 0-2

Lingering souls were MVP, I felt silly not registering them for the GPT and if the meta settles into grindy creature decks + D&T I'll happily play 4 and be living the dream. SFM was fine.. wish she was hymn a lot of the time but double black is awkward on turn 2. Sculler is an option but is bad without mom.

Lingering souls + swords is probably the edge that this deck will have in the meta (plus zealous persecution and hatebears). However that will play into the rise of kolaghans command (plus decay I guess). BSK was fine but probably unecessary, so with 3 equip I think we lock jitte and SoFaI. 3rd option is:

SoLaS: Pro black good agains Marit Lage, Griselbrand and strix. Pro white against mom/d&t. Gives life gain and occasional card advantage (StP and drs kind of shit on it)
SoFaF: Pro black ^^. Pro green for getting past elves.. but jitte and sofai are better. Great against combo because it doesn't waste your tempo for the turn and makes them discard. However all equipment is mediocre against BR reanimator which is rising on the back of its good show n tell matchup... might need some leylines.

I think I'll try SoFaF first.

@Matt, dont forget to get me off liliana.. I think she's pretty good right now and the only threat + answer in the deck thats relevant against nearly all opponents.

So what was the 75 you played on Friday? I dont think you posted a list with SFM and GSZ.

Also, Is it wrong for me to think Sword of Light and Shadow might be better? By cutting Batterskull, SoLaS gives is some nice lifegain to buffer bob and library triggers and can draw us cards like SoFI by returning threats back.

[Jain_Mor]

@Tescrin, man if that said lifelink... As for SoBaM, I did think about it.. but the utility of pro black fliers is quite significant and SoFaF interacts in a way the others don't (plus really great with man lands). But if it turns out making a grizzly bear every turn is real good (like a mini garruk relentless) then I'm down. I wonder how many swords is too many swords? What if there is a build with 4 lingering souls and 4 bitterblossom and a bunch of swords...

@KoDiamonds,

Sure:

20
4 Verdant
2 Marsh
2 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

2 Treetop
4 DRS
4 STP
4 TS
2 IoK

2 Library
4 Bob
4 Goyf
2 Decay
1 Zealous
3 SFM
1 Jitte

2 Liliana
1 Council's
2 Lingering Souls
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

Side
2 Surgic Extrc
2 Canonist
2 Spirit of Lab
2 Cont Priest
2 Teeg
1 Lost Legacy
2 Deluge
1 Zealous Persc
1 Council's

I cut the Gsun package for consistency in threats (bob, goyf, library, souls) and swapped some removal slots into the sideboard in exchange for the card advantage slots from the sideboard (ie zealous and council's into the side, put sfm as CA maindeck)

[sdematt]

Alright, so here's my schtick on Liliana of the Veil:

I think she's good, but I think she has inherent problems with our deck, which I'll go over.

1) Previously, Liliana was mostly bad because she was, well, bad against Miracles. Say what you will, she was not where you wanted to be against Miracles, -6 or not.

2) Liliana is tough because she's at her best against TNN/big fatties, but typically they have more than one creature. Awkward.

3) Her +1 is symmetrical, but blue's draw power greatly exceeds ours generally, meaning we're not acting favourably, or even symmetrically. You break parity when you discard cards like Punishing Fires, Life from the Loam, and to some extent, Lingering Souls. Ideally, we want to keep up and have AS MANY cards as we possibly can to fuel our grind. Obviously if you're hellbent it's irrelevant, but discarding removal, even on an empty board, still feels bad especially when many blue decks can come back from behind.

4) The -6 is really good against some decks, for sure, but you'll probably be -2'ing and +1'ing so you may not be doing much of it.


This is why I've always been kinda sore on Liliana in non-Jund decks. Liliana of the Last Hope has promise because her removal is always going up. Every turn, she's either nugging something or making blocks and attacks unfavourable. She doesn't kill TNN or Deathrite, but she can do some work against 1/1's, opposing Goyfs, etc. Plus, you can just activate her post-combat to complicate the math for the opponent.

Again, I think Liliana is fine, but I don't enjoy giving up my cards, and I find the removal aspect somewhat lackluster. I'd honestly rather just drown them in more card draw. Saying that, if someone was playing 2 of them, I'm not going to fault them or anything. There's something to be said about Thoughtseize, Hymn, and the Liliana package, I just prefer the Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy route.

[sdematt]

List might need to change with the whole Top banning. Can't remember if I've posted a list since the banning, or I've just made lists on paper and never uploaded.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
8

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

61

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction

This was my previous list, and I don't really see any problems. Bitterblossom might not even be necessary to be truthful, since we're likely just grindier.

I think there's definitely some merit in some number of Lost Legacy. I think the Safekeeper in the board can likely go. I might split 3 Thoughtseize/3 Therapy and then two other slots, which might end up being Equipment #3 (Batterskull or SoLaS/SoWaP) and maybe the 4th Confidant.

So, an alternative below:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
15

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
6

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Equipment #3 (Feast and Famine might have more credence if we find we're finding we're almost drawing TOO much and having shit caught in our hands, then untapping is great).
3

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

61

//Sideboard//

2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lost Legacy
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Surgical Extraction


Or if you want to go more old school tempo-style...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Flayer

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

21 Lands

//Sideboard//

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Lost Legacy
2 Ethersworn Canonist

No fucking around, and game 2 is designed to fuck over combo and Elves, since I figure Elves is going to be a DTB.

Or some Jacques Cousteau deep sea brewing...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch

2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Humility
4 Lingering Souls
3 Zealous Persecution
1 Bitterblossom
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Sylvan Library

4 STP
3 Decay

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

22 Lands or so, but like 5 basics.

Game plan is to drop Humility and profit, 8 manadorks to make sure you get there on time. Then, you have a great tutor package out of the board full Needles and other fun shit. Game 1 crap over creatures, game 2 just make combo's life hell since they're cutting Decays.

[Jain_Mor]

I wouldn't say your arguements are compelling, but you've said enough to make me taste the lilianaless world!
Thanks for reminding me of grim flayer, that needs testing too.

And agreed, humility is so relevant right now, perhaps there is a way to abuse it.

[KoDiamonds]

Alright, so here's my schtick on Liliana of the Veil:

I think she's good, but I think she has inherent problems with our deck, which I'll go over.

1) Previously, Liliana was mostly bad because she was, well, bad against Miracles. Say what you will, she was not where you wanted to be against Miracles, -6 or not.

2) Liliana is tough because she's at her best against TNN/big fatties, but typically they have more than one creature. Awkward.

3) Her +1 is symmetrical, but blue's draw power greatly exceeds ours generally, meaning we're not acting favourably, or even symmetrically. You break parity when you discard cards like Punishing Fires, Life from the Loam, and to some extent, Lingering Souls. Ideally, we want to keep up and have AS MANY cards as we possibly can to fuel our grind. Obviously if you're hellbent it's irrelevant, but discarding removal, even on an empty board, still feels bad especially when many blue decks can come back from behind.

4) The -6 is really good against some decks, for sure, but you'll probably be -2'ing and +1'ing so you may not be doing much of it.


This is why I've always been kinda sore on Liliana in non-Jund decks. Liliana of the Last Hope has promise because her removal is always going up. Every turn, she's either nugging something or making blocks and attacks unfavourable. She doesn't kill TNN or Deathrite, but she can do some work against 1/1's, opposing Goyfs, etc. Plus, you can just activate her post-combat to complicate the math for the opponent.

Again, I think Liliana is fine, but I don't enjoy giving up my cards, and I find the removal aspect somewhat lackluster. I'd honestly rather just drown them in more card draw. Saying that, if someone was playing 2 of them, I'm not going to fault them or anything. There's something to be said about Thoughtseize, Hymn, and the Liliana package, I just prefer the Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy route.

1) Liliana still provided pressure that was difficult for miracles to answer, since she cant be terminused/StPd, etc.

2) Liliana still gives us the ability to remove TNN, which shouldnt ve understated. We have enough removal to keep the board fairly clean so Liliana should be able to sweep up most of the time.

3) Like in point 1, she still pressures your opponent to respond. If she can survive an untap after a -2, shell just be grinding out CA at that point. Plus, the number of decays are going down, which will only make her better. Plus, the best feeling in the world is drawing extra cards with bob and activating lilly.

4) With all planeswalkers, the ultimate shouldnt be a deciding factor on if shes playable or not. Its a solid removal spell that pressures the opponent with the +1. Plus, if your hand is stacked, you can always do the hidden 0 ability and just not activate her.

I am still iffy on Lilly the last hope. Doesnt kill the problem creatures the deck has trouble dealing with like Leovold, Tnn, etc. Then again, I was iffy on her in modern and I was wrong. Id like to see her get played though.

That Humility list though.... IS GREAT lol

[sdematt]

Even if you're not convinced, play the deck without Liliana and see what you think. I've liked it, and maybe you will too.

[H]

Wouldn't equipment be pretty good in a Humility list? I mean, then you have more bodies and better bodies?

I mean, yes, Stoneforge would kind of suck, but perhaps just 2 SFM/1 Jitte?

[sdematt]

Sure, it wouldn't be bad at all. But, if we're running E. Tutor already, maybe we just run 2 Jitte and say fuck it. Ex. cut Timely and go with the Jittes.

[H]

Sure, it wouldn't be bad at all. But, if we're running E. Tutor already, maybe we just run 2 Jitte and say fuck it. Ex. cut Timely and go with the Jittes.

Good point, forgot about Tutors in there. Timely might be better from the board anyway, so you can bring it in when the life-gain will be more needed.

[tescrin]

Personally, I think people should be in Bitterblossom to begin with. +2/+2 to Goyf (minimum +1) is a big deal. Enough to put him over Reanimator targets, etc.; let alone Gurmag/Stalker. Blossom directly counters Marit Lage, often gives actual CA (via getting a token or two and them decaying it) and runs away with games.

I get that Souls is fast, but it's expensive. The deck can sit low to the ground on 2-mana threats, buffs your goyfs, and costs a full 3-less mana being only a single token behind by the time you're swinging. Lack of grave-reliance is good for opp's bringing in RiPs.. I wish people would try it out a bit again. When I swapped it was an easy "this is strictly better" card; *especially* without Liliana.

When you save 3 mana and require an answer from your opponent, you get to wasteland them more. I think going:
-3 Souls
-0-1 Hymn
+2-3 Bitterblossom
+0-1 Loam
+0-1 Entomb
if entomb: consider 0-1 Filth, Brawn, or similar in the side or main to allow "unblockable" and/or anti-TNN stuff

My thinking would be 2 BB, 1 Loam, 1 Entomb, and be able to:
* Combat-tricks with Goyf at instant speed 1-mana
* Loam greedy decks out at the same speedy as a real loam deck
* Potentially give your dudes trample, swampwalk or whatnot
* Tutors darkblast if you want..

Again, this could be limited to BB but if I were in Junk right now, I think I'd be doing the above. In the worst case Entomb becomes a 3-mana Life From the Loam
I'm also not sure about Libraries with Leo's running around. I didn't mind Oath of Nissa and was even able to make 4-colors work pretty well a year or so ago (except that the D&T matchup becomes unreasonably bad.

[KoDiamonds]

Even if you're not convinced, play the deck without Liliana and see what you think. I've liked it, and maybe you will too.

What would you substitute Liliana with? More removal? More threats?


On another note, I am currently on 3 equipment (Jitte, SoFI, SoLS). Are 2 Stoneforge Mystics too few to support the 3 equipment? Are 3 mystics necessary? Or can I get by with 2?

[tescrin]

2 Mystics 3 equips is fine. Some swear by 4, some thing 3 is the magic number, others say 2 is the only way to go. I've even seen someone vehemently argue for 1.

I personally like 2/3, or even 2/2. Equips in openers are basically pretend-mulligans and if you did 3/2 you'll have the opposite problem of running actual-squires in the deck pretty often.

3-4 mystics tend to be more useful with BSK because even if you miss your equip-trigger you can reset BSK for 5 mana making them useful for pseudo-CA

[Scott]

Kind of an interesting Junk list 5-0'd on MTGO today

// Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

// Creature (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

// Sorcery (7)
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize

// Instant (5)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifact (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Enchantment (4)
4 Sylvan Library

// Land (22)
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Has no one besides me tested Oath of Nissa? That card acts like ponder in here, plus ups your goyfs often.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[tescrin]

Has no one besides me tested Oath of Nissa? That card acts like ponder in here, plus ups your goyfs often.

I played OoN for awhile when I was still playing junk, about a year or so ago. It was fine. It's better with Liliana since she ups your hit-count, but as long as she's replaced with dudes it's fine. With OoN and DRS I was able to get to 4-colors.

I tried a weirdo deck with Magus of the Moon, Pfire, and Groves in place of Wastelands, with only a taiga/badlands as other red sources I think. It was functional but amazingly bad against D&T, for reasons that should be obvious.

Otherwise, it had great combo game and could grind reasonably with other midrangers. Not sure I'd reocmmend that route, but go crazy.


Going back, if OoN with DRS can stitch together that monstrosity, I think it's quite worth consideration. It's main issue is you often throw-away an abrupt decay or plow when you dig, which can sad if that's what you're needing. Even so, it *drastically* improves your ability to keep your opening 7, much like a blue deck. Finding a land with Oath of nissa is a grand feeling, and the opp never knows unless you still wiff.

[KoDiamonds]

Kind of an interesting Junk list 5-0'd on MTGO today

// Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

// Creature (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

// Sorcery (7)
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize

// Instant (5)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifact (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Enchantment (4)
4 Sylvan Library

// Land (22)
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

Yeah, I am a little unsure about the Noble Hierarchs. Seems really off in this list. 4 Libraries are also A LOT. I guess this person really wants to draw Sylvan Librarys haha.




On another note, is Garruk Relentless still necessary in the board now that Miracles is gone? Is he good in any other matchups thats worth keeping in?