Looking forward to the updates. I feel like with a pre-ban list it would be tough to get those results. Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out Top was actually holding the deck back all this time? Sigh...a man can dream.Originally Posted by jdmdave
Sadly, that is impossible.
Looking forward to hearing the updates as well! I'm convinced CB is unplayable, but Terminus still seems reasonable with enough setup, it's so powerful.
You guys keep slamming CB as unplayable, but trust me, it very much IS playable. I highly recommend you guys give my list a spin before laying judgment.
That said 3 CB + 1 Clique might be better than 4 CB/0 clique, but I'll need to grind more online before I come to a more definitive conclusion.
I'm slamming it as unplayable after extensively testing it, alongside the full spectrum of enablers. It's just not strong or consistent enough.
Have you tried my list?
Yes, it was among the first that I tried, as well as deviations from it that my friends have shared. CB is not sustainable at a high, consistent level.
I'll grind the comp league before coming to a final judgment, but the card has overperformed for me, particularly in this delver/storm infested meta. I'll also try a legend package and a stoneforge package.
How many cantrips do you all think are necessary to make Terminus playable?
Do you think 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder is enough (along with 4 Snapcaster Mages), or would more be needed?
And if Terminus is playable, is it still a 4-of, or would it be necessary to reduce the number in the main to avoid overly clunky hands/draws?
Have you tried the suite with 4 Portents and 4 Predicts?
I understand that counterbalance is up for debate, but I absolutely feel that terminus is currently playable as a 4 of. Between Brainstorm/Ponder/Portent/Jace/Snapcaster, it's incredibly easy to stack it on top.
Yes, you have a far lower instance of instant speed blow outs, but a 3-for-1 is still a 3-for-1
Edit: I've also noticed I'm winning a ton of postboard matches with blood moon - Perhaps it should be mainboarded? Blood Moon into JTMS is GG vs so many decks.
I have been using your list with couple changes. Here's my findings:
1. With enough cantrips, it is possible to pseudo float cmc 1 and 2. Of course, it's less consistent. However, as long as you cast a cantrip every turn, and sometimes via Snapcaster flashback, it might just be enough against Delver decks. Portent makes a lot of sense here.
2. Takes a long time to win. If you run into combo decks, you can certainly win quickly by Snapcaster beats. But if you run into fair decks like DnT, this would turn into grind-fest fast and you have no Entreat to close out. Yes, after I disenchant like 4 times (via Snapcasters), cleared out jitte, skull, and sofi, finally I was able to stabilize and pretty much drained all the clock to get a win for that game, but that won't close out the match.
3. As much as I want to run 3 Jace, this combo-infest meta just isn't allowing that to happen. There is no way for me to tap out Main Phase to cast Jace against combo, unless we just fought a counter war and I need to reload my hand anyway.
4. Surprise factor. People just assume that Miracles players cease to exist and they'll never need decay for CB.
Hence, my Modified version:
4 snapcaster mage
1 vendillion clique
3 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
3 counterspell
4 force of will
1 spell pierce
1 spell snare
4 stp
2 jace
1 council's judgement
3 ponder
4 portent
1 supreme verdict
3 terminus
1 batterskull
20 the usual lands
SB:
1 pithing needle
1 containment priest
2 ethersworn canonist
1 vendilion clique
2 disenchant
2 flusterstorm
1 kozilek's return
2 pyroblast
2 surgical extraction
1 from the ashes
card choices:
1. Since it's harder to float, want to reduce Miracle cards count, verdict is better against tempo decks anyway.
2. The actual win-con is the batterskull and the MD clique. I would still have 2 cliques in the 75 in this combo meta, no matter MD or SB, I just happen to split them.
3. Canonists for Storm combo, Containment Priests for other combos, i.e. show and tell, elves, reanimator, and Vial decks like DnT.
With the inability to float 2, it's now very, very difficult to stop Loam. Our MU against Lands is now unfavorable. You Have to Clique that Loam away. If they happen to found multiple, it'll be very difficult. Now, all the fast combos are punching Lands into the ground, though Lands have plenty of combo hate in its SB. Hence this MU problem might just take care itself by the Meta.
Basically in agreement with all of your points. My biggest issue was winning games in a 50 minute window and floating 2cmc consistently. My two points of disagreement regarding the list are the supreme verdict over the 4th Terminus and only 3 ponders, but these are minor gripes. I love the look on my opponents faces when they get portent -> Terminused, PARTICULARLY with an active leovold. As for Batterskull vs Jace and the counterspell/pierce/snare ratio, please let me know how it goes.
One interaction people sometimes forget about Portent is that you can actually actively screw with your opponents topdecks, which is particularly effective vs nonblue decks. I had this come up vs BR reanimator in a topdecking situation where I just gave him reanimate-reanimate then abrupt decay with an active 1cmc counterbalance online.
My Sideboard is pretty similar, but I really like blood moon over BTB/FTA/Ruination. The card just ends games on the spot.
* 1 EE
* 2 Vclique
* 3 Pblast
* 2 Blood Moon
* 2 Wear/Tear
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 1 Canonist
* 2 Surgical
I'm taking the CFA Level 2 Exam beginning of June, so I'll start testing in earnest after the 3rd of June.
jdmdave, what do you think of using Personal Tutor in the Portent list in tandem with your cantrip package? It can be either a Terminus or an Entreat or some other one-of that may be useful (From the Ashes postboard vs. 4c grindy midrange.dec). It could even be a Portent for when you need one. I would cut 1 Counterspell 1 Ponder 1 Snapcaster and add in 2 Personal Tutor/1 Entreat. This allows us to use Entreat against lists where we want a quick closeout. It also allows us to grab Council's Judgment when it is needed. Personally, I like From the Ashes instead of Blood Moon because every 4c deck is BG and has the ability to float BG for Abrupt Decay.
There is also Arcane Denial, which could be used in place of Counterspell as both a filter that draws 3 on your opponent's turn for Terminus or a subpar hard counter that answers cards you just can't afford to let resolve like Infernal Tutor. This seems way too cute.
Last edited by Richard Arschmann; 05-09-2017 at 03:47 PM.
So a quick update - I was testing a mini stoneblade package (+2 SFM, +1 Bskull, -1 counterbalance, -1 JTMS, -1 Counterspell) and didn't like it, but I had pretty reasonable success with a legends package (-1 JTMS, -1 Cbalance, -1 Snap, -1 Judgment, +1 Karakas, +2 Vclique, +1 Venser). Anyone else have updates?
I'm going to start testing some stuff in paper with some Portent lists soon
Played Portent Miracle last night at my fnm, went 4-0 against shardless, grixis delver, goblins and rug delver. Report to come.
How close is your list to mine? I've been doing more testing and have found myself reverting to a 3 CB + 1 Vclique build over SFM package or Legends
I will post my list soon. But it is a predict build with counterbalance and 2 EtA. No clique, no sfm package.
I've been tempted to try 19 land predict build, but felt it would be too inconsistent with Jace. How did you find ETA without access to consistent opponent EOT triggering?
Why is Miracles still a DTB with Sensei's Top banned?
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