All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, cause if LED was banned, then Will would be fine! Pay no attention to the DRits, CabalRits, Petals, the ability to replay a Fetch, and any number of Cantrips that you used to get to that Will in the first place. I'd happily argue that DRit is more busto than stupid LED under a theoretical Legacy Will turn, since LED makes you RFG the stuff in your hand when you dump it. LED != Black Lotus, no matter how much it may look like it sometimes. Ask someone who plays Bomberman in Legacy and Vintage what the difference is. Sheesh.

With all respect, but one has already hinted you at please reading what has been said, so why I have to do it too? No one said, YW is fine. I just stated that the card is less busted than one or the other card on the list. I dropped my 0.02$ on YW because i don't see it as "among the top 5 busted cards".

Pointing at rituals and cantrips is shortsighted as not only PIF can do that too, but without LEDs the deck would lose half of its +3 manasources and its top hellbent enabler.

Interesting thought. Wouldn't Yawgmoth's Will speed Storm up by a full turn (or 1/2 a turn at least)? Just in the context of Past in Flames and Snapcaster Mage being powerful cards in Legacy, it seems high on the list to me, but this is all in theory. I always viewed Will as the most "swingy" card in the game, but good points that it doesn't apply as much to Legacy.

I adress the topic of speed right in the Paragraph below the next quote.

While my post had no intent to discuss an unbanning of YW, as the card (in a nutshell at least) is stronger than PIF, I think it was worth noting that the cards effect isn't something which would flip the format upside down like other cards on the banlist would. We have a similar effect in PIF already, so we would talk an upgrade "only". For me that's not quite as earthshaking as unbanning Necro, Gush, Balance & Co.

Wat? Come on man, I've read some of your other posts, you're smarter than that. Will is straight-up-bonkers-busto in any format where D Rit is legal. Willing for Value, play a fetch, bstrom, do something random is still great. You're talking about Storm going off a full turn earlier on average.

Please mind that I clearly removed the biggest offender for the looping which is LED and part of the reason PIF is worded how it is. The general critique that it enables value plays and interacts with Rituals is as true for YW as it is for PIF, so it doesn't hold much weight in judging the actual impact.

The speed argument is a bit more tricky as ee would need to compare [YW w/o LED] with [PIF w/ LED] and the sheer mana volumne you lose by cutting LED reduces the scenarios where you can loop with YW. Playing with LED + Cabal Ritual equal eight +3 sources which would get halfed. A Loop with YW still needs at least 6 mana pre-tutor while PIF is only 1 mana more expensive. I am not convinced that the exchange of four +3 sources for the ability to loop one mana cheaper is actually resulting into a speed up combo.

[Ronald Deuce]

I would instantly play 3 in like most decks in Legacy.

On the draw, drop Library, pass, eot draw card, untap, drop second land, play SFM ... turn 2 and already plus 2 cardadvantage, whoopwhoop

The scariest thing about Library in Legacy is that it's not legendary.

Seems Julius Caesar did us all a favor.

[Gheizen64]

Vampiric is busted because you can EoT it, so your opponent never gets the opportunity to interact at sorcery speed. Imperial requires spending a second effort to get the card immediately into hand. Of course, I am biased, because I think the format could use some more non-creature-based toolbox stuff.

Even mainphased, basically no decks can interact with the top of the library. Like, JTMS can bottom your card, but it cost 4. Portent? I love the card but no one play it. Predict and guess right? Good luck. A drawstep Clique? You can't discard it out of hand. You can't meddling mage because you don't know which card he took.
In my opinion the primary discriminant in unbanning cards is how much opportunities you have to play around it and how much you have to consider the card in your deckbuilding to optimize it. Like, survival constraint deckbuilding significantly and can be attacked by different angles (enchantment removal, needle/revokers, hate grave for recurring etc...). Vamp tutor, imperial etc.. are auto-includes in like 99% of decks that can run them and you can interact with them only with permission basically.

[Lemnear]

Vampiric is busted because you can EoT it, so your opponent never gets the opportunity to interact at sorcery speed. Imperial requires spending a second effort to get the card immediately into hand. Of course, I am biased, because I think the format could use some more non-creature-based toolbox stuff.

This blows my mind. What kind of format are you playing what prevents to cast a topdeck-tutor followed by Probe/Brainstorm/Ponder?

Go unban Imperial Seal, so I can cast Dark Ritual -> Seal (Ad Nauseam) -> LED -> Probe -> crack Diamond -> Ad Nauseam all day

[Whitefaces]

This blows my mind. What kind of format are you playing what prevents to cast a topdeck-tutor followed by Probe/Brainstorm/Ponder?

Go unban Imperial Seal, so I can cast Dark Ritual -> Seal (Ad Nauseam) -> LED -> Probe -> crack Diamond -> Ad Nauseam all day

I'm not sure Seal would be alright, but using a goldfish hand as an example isn't very convincing .

[Lemnear]

I'm not sure Seal would be alright, but using a goldfish hand as an example isn't very convincing .

Seal would be even more stupid as Mystical Tutor was, especially as it works wonderful with Rituals. With MT storm would need a lot more blue sources in various scenarios, but with Seal, you can just loop fine. Rituals -> Seal (PIF) -> probe -> PIF -> Rituals -> Seal (ToA) -> Probe -> ToA ... thanks for coming. No need for 2 mana tutors or hellbent.

Heck, the card can even dig up Omniscience and Griselbrand for your S&T in an UB version of OmniTell.

[Whitefaces]

Seal would be even more stupid as Mystical Tutor was, especially as it works wonderful with Rituals. With MT storm would need a lot more blue sources in various scenarios, but with Seal, you can just loop fine. Rituals -> Seal (PIF) -> probe -> PIF -> Rituals -> Seal (ToA) -> Probe -> ToA ... thanks for coming. No need for 2 mana tutors or hellbent.

Heck, the card can even dig up Omniscience and Griselbrand for your S&T in an UB version of OmniTell.

It's also pretty sick with Revenge of the Hunted, might breath some fresh air into eva green.

[Quasim0ff]

It's also pretty sick with Revenge of the Hunted, might breath some fresh air into eva green.

http://i.imgur.com/keHbL.gif

WOOO, JUND TIER ONE.

[Whitefaces]

http://i.imgur.com/keHbL.gif

WOOO, JUND TIER ONE.

Now we're cookin!

BBE > Bonfire hyyyype

[Megadeus]

Yeah in a format where Probe is still legal (for some reason), top deck tutors are going to be very good. I'm honestly surprised there's no personal tutor mono blue omni deck out there, but I guess personal tutor is terrible enough that it sees no play

[Lemnear]

Yeah in a format where Probe is still legal (for some reason), top deck tutors are going to be very good. I'm honestly surprised there's no personal tutor mono blue omni deck out there, but I guess personal tutor is terrible enough that it sees no play

I boldly claim, that the reason for that is, that Personal Tutor (unlike Intuition) can't grab ALL parts of the combo

[rlesko]

I boldly claim, that the reason for that is, that Personal Tutor (unlike Intuition) can't grab ALL parts of the combo

Personal Tutor -> Idyllic tutor = GG

[HSCK]

Yeah in a format where Probe is still legal (for some reason), top deck tutors are going to be very good. I'm honestly surprised there's no personal tutor mono blue omni deck out there, but I guess personal tutor is terrible enough that it sees no play

Are there any blue cards that shouldn't be banned?

[Hanni]

Are there any blue cards that shouldn't be banned?

Ban Island.

[rlesko]

Ban Island.

Island is not blue. Try again

[Hanni]

Island is not blue. Try again

You're right. You don't need Island for Gitaxian Probe, Mental Misstep, or Force of Will. I don't know what I was thinking.

[Megadeus]

Are there any blue cards that shouldn't be banned?

I mean is retarded enough to be banned in modern, restricted in vintage, and it was a very very powerful card in standard. It's pretty fucking stupid.

[Dice_Box]

I mean is retarded enough to be banned in modern, restricted in vintage, and it was a very very powerful card in standard. It's pretty fucking stupid.

So Ponder?

[Lava Snacks]

I mean is retarded enough to be banned in modern, restricted in vintage, and it was a very very powerful card in standard. It's pretty fucking stupid.

And Ponder is restricted in Vintage and banned in Modern. And Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, and Lodestone Golem are restricted in Vintage. And stupid shit like Second Sunrise and Summer Bloom are banned in Modern. Who fucking cares, they're different formats. #BanGoodCards

[Megadeus]

I mean yes ponder is a retarded card. I mean brainstorm is a retarded card, and ponder is far behind, but still retarded.