[Primer] Elves!

[Harduvel]

Has anyone tested Vizier of the Menagerie? I played it at a local event last night and it impressed me on a couple occasions. Looking forward to testing with it some more.

[Prdgychild]

Has anyone tested Vizier of the Menagerie? I played it at a local event last night and it impressed me on a couple occasions. Looking forward to testing with it some more.

please say more. list, matchups, events that led you to say this...very interested! love the card

[Echelon]

Has anyone tested Vizier of the Menagerie? I played it at a local event last night and it impressed me on a couple occasions. Looking forward to testing with it some more.

I have a list prepared but haven't had the chance to play it yet. Could you share your 75?

[Harduvel]

Here's my list:
20 LANDS
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

29 CREATURES
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
4 Wirewood Symbiote

11 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

SIDEBOARD
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize

I cut a Natural Order for the Vizier as I didn't want to overload on 4-drops. Round 1 against Grixis Delver I resolved Vizier and immediately played a Deathrite off the top. The following turn I able to build a huge board by playing creatures from the top of my deck. Being able to cast Leovold off of only green mana was also relevant in this match. In another match against UWR Stoneblade I was comboing with Glimpse and drew Vizier with no other gas in hand, and was able to then finish comboing off thanks to being able to play off the top of my deck. Part of what this card has going for it is that it doesn't die to Bolt or Decay, and Fatal Push must be revolted, making it very good against fair decks that don't play white (for Plowshares). And even in the face of Swords you still get immediate value by playing a creature off the top. It also dodges quite a few of the hate cards people will bring in against you, such as Cage, Containment Priest, Engineered Explosives, and all sorts of sweepers/removal that care about toughness (Golgari Charm, Pyroclasm, Lavamancer, etc.). I'm not yet convinced that it's great or that it's better than the 4th Natural Order, but it's certainly good enough to warrant additional testing.

[resum]

i think the key card vizier needs to compare against is WRP.

[Flutschi]

So if you early NO for a vizier why not for Wren?

I'm trying currently basic Elfs with 1 Wren and 1 Sage (Ooze side, Ruric side..) and it works well against the many BUGish lists outthere..
Wren is just value. and vizier needs you to untap with it and have a creature on top or your library or its just a 3/4 dude that does nothing.

[Shagstaman]

the only thing that keeps me from loving WRP right now is the fatal push decks.. well..and the uptick of combo.

[lowpass]

What matchups are you hoping Vizier will help with? It seems very win-more, to me.

[tescrin]

What matchups are you hoping Vizier will help with? It seems very win-more, to me.

I think Vizier is basically a Glimpse with a body, except it lasts every turn. That's not necessarily any more "win more" than glimpse, just a different way of doing the same thing.

It has it's downsides (can be killed, doesn't stack if you have multiples in the deck) but he does stack with Glimpse in an entertaining way. [cast a dude from your library, draw a card.) What seems nice is if you get wrathed he can be a GSZ for 5 mana that can rebuild your board in a hurry if you don't brick too hard.

[Julian23]

Hey hey! I just won today's Legacy Challenge on MTGO with this:



R1 vs Grixis Delver, 1-2 LOSS
R2 vs ANT, 2-0 WIN
R3 vs Tin Fins, 2-1 WIN
R4 vs Shardless BUG, 2-1 WIN
R5 vs BUG Delver, 2-1 WIN
R6 vs Miracles, 2-0 WIN
Quarterfinals vs Turbo Depths, 2-0 WIN
Semifinals vs Food Chain, 2-1 WIN
Finals vs Dragon Stompy, 2-1 WIN

Videos are already up on my Patreon and will be available to everyone next week. Had a real blast playing tonight, especially since I didn't really get to play a lot this week. Great times! :-)

[Scott]

I love the green Tinkers Congrats.

[abombdiggity]

Won a GPT today. List was 4 NO, a 3/2 heritage birchlore split. SB was:
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Progenitus
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay

I wasn't annoyed by drawing progenitus all day, so it turned what would have been two incredibly grindy and difficult to maneuver games into some pretty easy wins.

R1- Pox 2-1
R2- BR Reanimator 2-1
R3- RW Taxes 2-0
R4- Sneak & Show ID
R5 Aggro Loam 2-1
Quarterfinals BR Reanimator 2-1 (Won game 1 through a T1 Sire)
Semifinals RW Taxes 2-0
Finals Grixis Delver (Therapy) 2-0

No MD scooze, didn't miss it at all, second Reclamation Sage out of the board was exceptional. The matchups you want to see it you want it early and often, especially in your hand due to opposing hate pieces making it tough to tutor.

[prdgchild]

congrats julian and everyone else for playing elves. question: is agaisnt the delver decks whats best, decay or meekstone? 3/1 spli? 3/2 ? how about meekstone vs jitte?

[Julian23]

You can check out all my matches with video commentary on my website now. Have fun! :-)

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

R/G Lands is still my nemesis. I don't think there is a deck against which I have a worse percentage. I've actually proxied up the deck to get a sense of it from the inside out and I've played about 300 games with it against a variety of decks and, especially, against elves. I pounded my elves opponents time and again. I learned a few things, but nothing that has significantly improved my match-ups. For instance, I have tended to adjust my Surgical targets against Lands from Thespian Stage more often to Loam or Punishing Fire. Obviously the board state dictates, but I've noticed that change. But, I also noticed that Lands likes to board in Chalice on 1, which our critters can sometimes thwart, but my Surgicals are slowed too much.

My match-ups against Miracles were much better than against Lands. And now with Miracles gone, I suspect Lands will see some kind of boost--if people can afford TaPV.

I don't know why I'm writing, I'm just venting. But for me, Lands has always seemed like it always has better draws than elves. Even when I'm hitting my draws, they seem to be drawing into something that is just one beat ahead of me. And Tireless Tracker was a real sideboard gift for them.

[prdgchild]

R/G Lands is still my nemesis. I don't think there is a deck against which I have a worse percentage. I've actually proxied up the deck to get a sense of it from the inside out and I've played about 300 games with it against a variety of decks and, especially, against elves. I pounded my elves opponents time and again. I learned a few things, but nothing that has significantly improved my match-ups. For instance, I have tended to adjust my Surgical targets against Lands from Thespian Stage more often to Loam or Punishing Fire. Obviously the board state dictates, but I've noticed that change. But, I also noticed that Lands likes to board in Chalice on 1, which our critters can sometimes thwart, but my Surgicals are slowed too much.

My match-ups against Miracles were much better than against Lands. And now with Miracles gone, I suspect Lands will see some kind of boost--if people can afford TaPV.

I don't know why I'm writing, I'm just venting. But for me, Lands has always seemed like it always has better draws than elves. Even when I'm hitting my draws, they seem to be drawing into something that is just one beat ahead of me. And Tireless Tracker was a real sideboard gift for them.

3 of the 15 regulars i play with are rg land i dread this so much. no advice but hope they miss their land drops

[Doneval]

R/G Lands is still my nemesis. I don't think there is a deck against which I have a worse percentage. I've actually proxied up the deck to get a sense of it from the inside out and I've played about 300 games with it against a variety of decks and, especially, against elves. I pounded my elves opponents time and again. I learned a few things, but nothing that has significantly improved my match-ups. For instance, I have tended to adjust my Surgical targets against Lands from Thespian Stage more often to Loam or Punishing Fire. Obviously the board state dictates, but I've noticed that change. But, I also noticed that Lands likes to board in Chalice on 1, which our critters can sometimes thwart, but my Surgicals are slowed too much.

My match-ups against Miracles were much better than against Lands. And now with Miracles gone, I suspect Lands will see some kind of boost--if people can afford TaPV.

I don't know why I'm writing, I'm just venting. But for me, Lands has always seemed like it always has better draws than elves. Even when I'm hitting my draws, they seem to be drawing into something that is just one beat ahead of me. And Tireless Tracker was a real sideboard gift for them.

Agreed. I just lost against Lands this weekend and that left me out of the top 8. I practiced against him several times, but it feels hopeless unless we combo in turn 3 (and he doesn't have Crop Rotation). I even brought Progenitus in instead of Craterhoof, but he got me in a soft lock with Glacial Chasm backed up by Sphere of Resistance and Tabernacle.

Lands did really well that weekend against all the BUG/Delver midrange, so I suspect we'll see it a lot more. Is there anything we can sideboard in to help that matchup?

[LeoCop 90]

Well, sideboard blood moon if you fear lands. it has already been done in elves, and they won't bring in enchantment hate in the blind.

[EEk1TwEEk]

Well, sideboard blood moon if you fear lands. it has already been done in elves, and they won't bring in enchantment hate in the blind.

Fully agreed. More combo decks and 4c deathblades in Moscow metagame after Top was banned.
Red is the color of choice now, I guess. Mainboard Taiga + Ruric-Thar, Blood Moon in SB.

[Shagstaman]

I have a solid winning record vs lands (likely close to 70~%) so I'll share what I know about the matchup.

1. Elderscale wurm is a beating against them. Sure they can technically still beat it--but it will be a 30+ minute affair to do so and if you managed to get game 1, this can lead to a 1-0-1 match win.

2. You must tax their resources. If you ever find them not having exploration in play; take full advantage of the fact they can only loam once per turn and p.fire once per turn. If they DO have exploration online, do your best to make them constantly use their mana so they can't freely go for a marit lage. This means playing out dudes into p.fire and forcing them to pay cumulative costs on chasm etc... Basically make them work for it--if you sit there and do nothing they WILL win.

3. DRS, scooze, rec sage, and decay are great tools in the matchup. If you can ever eat loams, p.fires, or key lands from their yard you are going to get ahead. Decay should come in (at least 2-3, but arguably 4) to combat their sb spheres, chalices, etc. Decaying or rec. saging an exploration can seriously wreck them too--because it's highly likely they kept their hand because of it.

4. try to stay above 20 life if at all possible. Don't let them "turbo" depths you if it can be avoided by not fetching aggressively. Turn the guys they p.fired into 1 and 2-life cushions vs marit lage.

5. B-E-Aggressive. Go for the fastest combo possible before they have time to loam into grove/p.fire. They may have crop rot for chasm--but that's OK...because that means you still have a nice board state and they don't have a marit lage. :)

There's a lot of more smaller, nuanced things...but these are the keys to beating lands IMO.