I can also confirm that mentor in the board is REALLY strong.
* Assuming no counterbalances in main, I presume we are running a 1 Entreat, 3 counterspell, 3 snapcaster, 1 spell pierce, 4 Predict "assortment" instead of 1 counterspell, 1 spell pierce, 3 counterbalance, 4 snapcaster, 3 Predict. Idk, but the card keeps performing for me, but I see the merit of the pure "CA" approach.
* What is the point of disenchant over unexpected #3-4? Absent covers even more ground than disenchant and has strong synergy with jtms + predict.
Here is my list I've had another close almost 5-0 with.
Maindeck
* 3 Tundra
* 9 Fetch
* 2 Plains
* 4 Island
* 2 Volc
* 3 Snapcaster
* 3 JTMS
* 1 Entreat
* 4 Predict
* 4 Brainstorm
* 4 Portent
* 4 Ponder
* 4 Terminus
* 2 Unexpected
* 3 STP
* 1 Spell Pierce
* 3 Counterspell
* 4 Force of Will
Sideboard
* 2 Mentor
* 2 Vclique
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 3 Pyroblast
* 2 Surgical
* 2 Blood Moon
* 2 Unexpectedly Absent
Mentor is good no doubt, I'm just not sure if it's what we're looking for in those slots. Do we want to/are able to stabilize the game by life gain from batterskull, or be proactive with Mentor? The SfM package is much better with Terminus, now that we don't have quite as much control over it I think that's a big factor too.
Disenchant is better than UA vs the Bloon Mood decks mostly, I'm not sure if we should be running any though. Currently I have 2 UA in the md and 1 Disenchant in the sb. I'll see how it goes, I like having a mix. I'm not playing any Spell Pierces, I'd prefer to have a Flusterstorm in that spot.
Have you found the red splash to be worth it? B2B is very good too in the Blood Moon slot. Pyroblast is obviously going to be insane in the mirror, but is it worth it otherwise?
Last edited by Whitefaces; 05-21-2017 at 08:09 AM.
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Tested a few matches using Whiteface's list as a starting point, with a few adjustments.
Planeswalker (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (13)
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Terminus
Instant (19)
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
3 Unexpectedly Absent
2 Swords to Plowshares
Land (20)
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
3 Flusterstorm
2 Back to Basic
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
Thoughts
1) List ran alot smoother than expected. Unexpected Absence + Predict + Portent gives so many lines of interesting play.
2) Very fun using Portent on Opponents after they Ponder
3) Can't decide if the deck is really strong, or simply having the "surprise factor"
4) there is a simplicity to being just UW. Wastelands are really inconsequential. i do miss my Red Blasts though.
5) Stoneforge out of the board is quite good. Will test replacing it with Mentor as well
6) Back to basics feels quite lacking at times, and doesn't provide that GG feel that Blood Moon gives.
Actually i can't decide if the red splash is still worth. Blast effects a bmoon are still really good but a more stable manabase is always good too.
Tested against Delver and I'm pretty sure I can't play without at least 3 STP maindeck and 2 fluster as stifle is backbreaking.
Online the meta is really different but in real there's a lot of different decks and STP is still very good. Thalia is very good Vs those cantrip heavy decks and UA can be pretty hard to cast if u are playing against D&T.
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Caveat, I was never a miracles player, as I found the deck boring. I'm much more interested in this version of the deck, however. I've posted the list I've been running below, and it's felt fine. So here's the question, why does the hivemind think that mutating this list to switch our one-mana removal for a two-mana bounce-to-library is correct? Just so that Predict is still a card?
Lands:
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instants and Sorceries:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard:
1 Karakas
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
1 Pyroclasm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
There is a bit more to it than that. Partially it makes it so that almost every single card in the deck helps to set up predict of course. But it is also a catch all, which allows us to cut things like disenchant that takes up precious sideboard space, especially in a world without CB we need more sideboard cards against combo than we did before. Also, not everyone wants to do that, I just happened to 5-0 with 4 Unexpectedly Absent.
Also with this new list playing more jace than before and 4 portent, we suddenly have a lot more ways to control our opponents draw than we ever had before, so in a not insignificant subset of games we can lock our opponents out that way. When you are ahead in the game, there is no better feeling than knowing your opponent is going to topdeck their deathrite shaman again next turn, and then once again the turn after that because you also have an snapcaster, all this while you beat down with clique or brainstorm with jace every turn.
Granted, I did over simplify, and recognize that there is more utility there than just as a removal spell. But my gut feeling is that it's "too cute".
Similarly, your point about needing more room for anti-combo cards is well taken, but so far I feel that finding that room by removing the predicts is the better option.
I'll be sure to test the Unexpectedly Absent, though. I'm always willing to be wrong.
I too was a doubter of unexpectedly absent, but now feel that 2 (and most likely 3) + 3 STP is the correct number. This deck plays more like modern lantern control than traditional miracles due to the mass amount of fatesealing. Basically instant speed terminus, then slam a jace combined with an avalanche of CA via Predict. I like how Predict lets you become very aggressive with your force of wills since you can just overpower your opponent with predict. I don't say this lightly, but predict is basically a mini dig through time in this deck.
I've continued to test the counterbalance build and I still like what I'm seeing. Could you guys who are on the fence elaborate upon what you've seen?
UA basically is a decent enabler, as it's an instant. There're 2 enablers: Jace and UA. Predict and Portent are the pay off. I am pretty convinced on running at least 2 Predict, 2 UA, and 2 Jace, but everything else seems to be in flux. Currently there are 2 hot topics:
1. UW or UWr
Everyone has opinion on this, not gonna elaborate further.
2. is there a place for CB
Currently I've decided to test couple CB in the SB. We all know CB is inconsistent. When you want to really counter something, inconsistency is a big no-no. With that said, there're MUs in which having a blind CB on the board can be the key, aka Storm and Elves. Against storm, flipping 0,1, and the jackpot 2 all are great. Well, if LED is already on the table, flipping 0 is pretty useless, but everything else appears to be throwing off Storm player's plan. Permanent hate is much, much stronger than holding counter against Storm.
Venser is still the generic solution to everything. Everything from equipment to Prelate to Show and Tell permanent to any fair MUs. UB Reanimator has Show and Tell my Venser in before. Even against Iona on White, Venser as some values as an out.
I understand we can reset Vials and throw off equipments via UA, but DnT will eventually rebuild the board. If we can find an Entreat or abuse the tempo/CA gained in between then we surely will win, but often I don't find that to be the case. Hence I much rather just Disenchant and be done with the particular problematic permanent.
Small heads up. ItIsUnfair has top 8'd the Legacy Challenge with this. We have legs, friends.
Yep, a great showing!
I went 4-2 and came 18th. Lost to Infect and Team America, beat Sneak and Show, UB Landstill, Grixis Delver and Moon Stompy. I'm really happy with this deck.
Same decklist ?
Gratz to you Whiteface, if you have ant return let us know.
Quite similar, but I'm always changing a few things.
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Portent
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Predict
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Unexpectedly Absent
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
SB:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Containment Priest
1 Hydroblast
1 Supreme Verdict
Going forward I think I'm going to cut the SfM package from the SB, add in 2 Mentors and a Clique and take a Clique out of the md for a StP. And maybe cut the Karakas from the md for another white fetch or 3rd plains, but I'm not sure on that yet.
I made top 8 of the challenge with this list:
Maindeck:
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Terminus
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Unexpectedly Absent
Sideboard:
1 Back to Basics
1 Batterskull
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Containment Priest
1 Hydroblast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vendilion Clique
I agree with that. I also wasn't very impressed by the stoneforge package. It wasn't bad but it also wan't good enough to be given 3 slots. I'm not sure exactly what to replace it with yet but I'll try some different things.
Congrats to both! A couple questions, if I may:
How often did you Portent yourself to set up a Terminus/Entreat vs. Portent the opponent to control draw steps and/or set up Predict? (Obviously this is going to vary based on a lot of factors, but just curious for a general sense.)
How often did you draw miracle cards 'by mistake' (from Predicting the opponent, etc.) and then have to find a way to put them back into the deck? Did this change the way you used Brainstorm? Were you more conservative with not Brainstorm-fetching away cards because you were saving the Brainstorm for a miracle drawn at the wrong time?
What is your sense of how many games you won with Jace vs. Entreat vs. Snap/Clique beats?
* * *
I unfortunately don't have MTGO and have been struggling to get a different online method to work, but am really looking forward to testing this in paper the next time I get to play Legacy. Unfortunately that will be in a couple weeks, but on the flip side, maybe better players will have everything figured out for me by then. ;)
Awesome to see the continued results. I've got my Portent on order for some IRL testing. I'm also very interested to see what Oarsman comes up with given the Legend package remains intact, and one of the decks that package works well against is Show and Tell decks; that have been on the rise. Keep posting everyone!
So I had a thought - Counterbalance doesn't seem to maindeckable, but what about using it in the sideboard over Ethersworn? The card locks out storm while also having added utility vs delver/burn/traditional 1cmc heavy matchups.
Moreover, what is everyone's take on back to basics vs blood moon vs ruination vs from the ashes? I've been running 2x BtB in the sideboard, but sometimes I feel that blood moon would lead to more instant "ggs". I like how the red splash gives us more powerful sideboard options vs straight UW.
Finally, and on a stupid note, I'm going to order some of the missing sideboard pieces. Should I go for FBB Japanese or full art promos/dci?
Thanks!
Portent into a Terminus does happen, but not as much as I initially thought. Portent has just been a really solid cantrip in general, being able to set up Terminus is a great bonus. It's used most of the time to set Predict up. I almost only use it in the late game on the opponent when it's pretty much wrapped up and I have a Jace/clock in play. As you say, of course it changes a bit based on what's going on, but it's been used with Predict and then a late game 'lock' more than anything else.
It happens as always. We don't have as much control over them as before so you do have to use Brainstorms a little more sparingly, but not as much as I initially though.
Jace is the number one win con. Sometimes it's technically Snap and Clique beats or an Entreat later on, but he creatures such an advantage that it's impossible for the opponent to come back. Mentor from the board has been great though, so there's that.
In other news, I just got another 5-0! Unfortunately my second one didn't get posted. This time I used the changes I mentioned above. +1 StP -1 Clique in the md, -3 sfm package +2 Mentor +1 Clique in the sb.
Edit to answer the below
Honestly, CB is too much unneeded work to maintain from my experience. Since other options are working I don't see a reason to incorporate one that hasn't worked already. Even vs a lot of matchups where you may want it (Elves, Lands for example) I was boarding them out anyway with SDT around.
I had B2B for a little while, but Anuraag convinced me that just playing a third Surgical would be better for the Lands matchup. Moon and FtA are really nice vs lots of the bug decks etc, but I'm hoping Mentor will close out the games without these things. If I was playing the red splash I'd probably play a couple of Moons though, it's better than B2B.
Hey! Nice playing with you on MTGO the other day. My thought is that for Storm, Canonist is just better.
- Even with a CB floating 1 or 2 on top, Storm can potentially still go off, but they have to get rid of Canonist. Canonist also provides an additional clock.
- The downside of Canonist is that ANT now runs 2x pyroclasm and a number of fatal pushes, and By Force SB.
- The main upside of CB against storm as i currently see it is that they no longer run decay - and aside from Echoing, have no way to remove a CB.
- Not sure if CB is consistent enough for Delver/Burn matchups though.
@WhiteFace/ItsUnfair
- How's the SneakShow Matchups like?
- What would you feel is currently our good matchups/bad matchups?
- For mentor, in my initial testing, does not play too well with Portent. It does generate a trigger, but does not allow us to chain cantrips well. Has that ever been an issue for you?
@Everyone
- I see alot less Decays now. Is it just me? or do you all have the same experience?
PS: is there anyone streaming the new miracles?
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