Originally Posted by Whitefaces
* I agree on Moon being better than B2B. I've got about 5 leagues under my belt right now (averaging 4-1) and B2B has been rather underwhelming.
* I haven't found counterbalance to be hard to setup at all. It's still backbreaking vs decks like storm/grixis delver.
My red sideboard
* 2 Blood Moon
* 3 Pyroblast
* 2 Mentor (Are we sure this is better than Gideon vs BUG/relevant decks?)
* 1 Vclique (1 Main)
* 2 Surgical
* 1 STP (#3)
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 2 Ethersworn (very tempted to run counterbalance)
I am pretty sure Whitefaces has not yet lost to Sneak with this. Lots of things and they play overall less Boseiju.
Right now, the absurd win rate means almost everything feels good =P But I'm horribly biased so I'll have them respond more realistically. Storm is unfavored for sure, which is why you're seeing more canonists and such.
I can envision Infect being a bit rough too, but the deck has existed for like a week, we have a long way to go!
Combo, in general, feels bad because the way we flex our power is across two facets: enabling Terminus and Predicting forever.
And yes, lot less decays now, but also, we don't give a shit about decay anymore at all! Not that we did before, but still, it was annoying at times.
Regarding Mentor, Portent doesn't really combo with mentor but it's purpose is to keep the rest of the deck's engine turned on, which is Predict. Incidental Ponders and Brainstorms is what Mentor turns on, as well as killing REALLY REALLY FAST in matchups that people board out removal (which is almost all of them now!
Do we have a twitch/discord chat or something to discuss?
@Kzhang - Nice Marathon match vs you (I'm Char_Aznable).
Regarding Storm, what are our "menu" of options?
* Canonist: Pros - Clock/Easy to Cast. Cons - Dies to By Force/Limits our cantripping/Doesn't pitch to Force.
* Counterbalance: Pros - Locks them out/Multi-match utility. Cons - Requires Setup
* Meddling Mage: Pros - Clock/Easy to Cast/Doesn't die to By Force/Good vs S&S/Pitches to Force. Cons - Doesn't shut down enough.
* Sanctum Prelate: Too expensive
* Gideon of the Trials: Too expensive, but nigh impossible to deal with.
* Flusterstorm: Works, but weak vs Discard
* Mindbreak Trap: Pros - Stops them dead. Cons - Weak to discard.
How exactly is Flusterstorm weak vs discard? I think it's amazing vs discard as it is A) active on t1 and B) doesn't create card disadvantage like FoW. It is also hard as hell to answer.
If you want a Canonist that doesn't die to removal and can pitch to Force all in one, I got you: Arcane Laboratory. If you fear REB's and still want to dodge removal, Rule of Law is an option. Sadly these cards still die to AD, but anything that doesn't is 4cc and probably comes down too slow.
First thing they'll nail on the critical turn is flusterstorm or force.
I think the big problem with Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law is that it costs 3 mana. If you stick it, it will probably win you the game, but a good portion of the time you'll just die before being able to cast it.
Anyways, here's a crazy idea. Is it ever justified to splash black in this sort of deck? A combination of countermagic, hatebears, and discard could improve our combo matchups. Thoughtseize/Duress is always good, or you can run Therapy which has synergy with Mentor from the board. I know we're already debating the merits of the classic red splash, but black might be an alternative option if we're interested in fighting against decks like Storm specifically.
How about Counterbalance? :>
Black splash did get better thanks to REB being less relevant and more random T1-2 Combodecks.
Thanks for this -- very informative. I barely got a bit of experience under my belt with old Miracles before the ban, so I'm very much playing catch up compared to everyone here.
Mana Maze is another (albeit strange) option.
Counterbalance has been really strong for me in the relevant matchups, but I sense a relative lack of support in this thread. Tell me, have you guys actually tried it over 20+ matches, or is this pure conjecture?
Agree about Canonist, it's been amazing for me. Once I've landed it I simply keep up mana and counter every removal spell aimed at it. If the opponent uses a discard spell on me, I use that opportunity to cast cantrips, otherwise clock them for 2 and keep passing. I've even been bringing in Hydroblast to counter Pyroclasm and By force, which has been Duressed over a FoW multiple times which says something. I've also had HALF my Storm opponent concede game two to a turn two Canonist. It shows that for now at least, most of them are boarding wrong, we should take these free wins while we can.
I had CB is the first lists I played. Maybe I should try it again, but at the moment I'm liking the sb plans for the matchups we'd want CB, except burn. But I was losing to them even with CB at the beginning too, it's really hard to leverage it.
Sneak and Show matchup has been amazing. Min is correct in that I haven't lost to it with this list yet, I feel like we're pretty favoured.
Good matchups - it's hard to be so sure yet, but most fair decks feel good. Elves is harder than before, but we have the tools to win. Aluren and Food Chain I imagine are tough as well, I managed to sneak a win in the fifth round of the league yesterday vs Aluren, but it was really hard, Mentor was invaluable.
Bad matchups - Burn is awful, I'm pretty much chalking that as unwinnable at the moment as Mentor has been better than the SfM package everywhere else. Storm still can be tough especially TES I've found. Infect isn't great. Some Hymn > Liliana draws with a quick clock from Team America can get you, but if we get to the late game Jace and Predict demolish them.
It's a small anti synergy between Mentor and Portent, but not bad enough to not run Mentor for. It's come up once where I had to draw an instant in their upkeep rather than keep the chain going, but it didn't change the game at all. When you're boarding Mentor in you can keep it in mind and use Portents earlier.
Funnily enough I started with the black splash! It was mostly for EE as I had two in the maindeck, but I also had three Thoughtseize in the board to combine with Snapcasters. It was alright, it definitely improves Storm, but splashing has a pretty big cost to it and I'd like to avoid it if possible. If the combo matchups get harder I'd reconsider. Arcane Lab/Rule of Law would be really strong. I like the clock that Canonist brings with it, but I think we can survive until T3 OK. I might try 2 Canonist 1 Lab!
Not 20+, but about ~15. Online and irl. It did what it did, I countered a bunch of spells with it, but I realised that the Brainstorms, Snapcasters and Jace activations I was using to keep it going I could just be using to answer whatever the opponent was playing too. If it's working for you, by all means keep jamming it, maybe I'm wrong and I'll try it again soon. But at the moment I'm really liking playing without it.
I've been testing both builds and will start keeping records (and hopefully 5-0s....soon. 2 4-1s in a row).
How do we address the burn & storm matchup? Counterbalance is steller vs burn (and decent vs storm), particularly now that exquisite firecraft has left sideboard. Failing that, do we consider something as janky as *Gasp* kor firewalker?
I think it would be great if we created a discord channel for discussion.
I hope you manage some 5-0s soon too! Prove me wrong about CB ;) I've played in seven leagues now, getting three 5-0s, two 4-1s and two 3-2s, so we've definitely got legs as Min said.
I think the Storm matchup is OK for now, it was bad at the beginning. I have 3 Canonist, 3 Fluster, 3 Surgical and an additional Clique in my sb, this is addressing it imo.
I don't think CB is actually that good vs burn. People are still playing a million Firecrafts, their curve is pretty erratic, I had plenty of games where I didn't have enough cantrips/time to set up CB reasonably. If burn gets bigger then I'll probably bring the SfM package back, but I'm just accepting it's bad for now, I don't want to dedicate a SB slot as narrow as Kor Firewalker for it. You need to pick the battles you think you'll fight.
I'll let you know about a chat.
Maybe Entlightened Tutor package plus a CoP: Red or a Warmth or so?
This would also increase the odds of getting Ethersworn Canonist against Storm.
(Not to mention all the other possible applications.)
E Tutor sets up Predict too
Jokes aside, I wouldn't want to play it for the card disadvantage. There's so many cantrips in the deck I feel like we don't need to run tutors.
Is an SFM package with Bskull even worth the slots against Burn? It's awfully slow, you can only start gaining life either turn 4, or prevent some damage from them not being able to attack into it by turn 3. But they can shoot almost any of their spells at the SFM and set you back. I've never been too impressed by it as Burn tech, feels too slow and clunky. How relevant would it be for other matchups, do you think?
(I don't play MTGO, just paper. My meta usually has 1-3 burn players show up for win-a-duals and such, so it's something I'd need to be concerned with. I realise it's probably pretty negligible of a concern online)
My only problem right now with the main board is...
...Portent doesn't exist in foil
I have played (and would basically only play) Mana Maze, in a deck that want to go Snapcaster Mage -> Thoughtseize. Otherwise if our deck can't use it it seems like a worse Arcane Laboratory (which I have played a lot with and is still good at 3 mana).
Mana maze is essentially arcane lab against the relevant decks imho (elves, storm), and keep you a bit more open compared to laboratory (you can flashback swords or play terminus + counterspell etc...) while costing 1 less.
True, it's not a slam dunk 'I win' card always, but Burn isn't played enough online or where I play to need something super narrow. If you need some options for it, maybe try Chill? Could be pretty potent with Mentors. Otherwise CoP: Red seems great as Asthereal suggested.
Yes and No. There are still quite a few easy empty the warrens lines that ANT can they can take to potentially beat mana maze (example:duress, ponder, d rit, led, infernal, empty), and TES even more so. Past in flames is a lot more difficult but with enough gitaxian probes in the GY it is sometimes still possible. Don't get me wrong, I like Mana Maze and usually play it in the sideboard of my UB control decks.
The fact that canonist can attack for 2 is also really good against storm.
One of the advantages however of Arcane Lab (or mana maze) is that you can board it in against elves and aluren (stops combo + shardless agent) and not have to worry about it going away when you cast Terminus.
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