[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[thefringthing]

Is there some anti synergy I'm missing? I haven't seen the card played yet.

Hope of Ghirapur has shown up in at least one 5-0 list from MTGO.

I tried out Surfinbird's list on Monday. Didn't love it, but that might have just been that all my matchups were boring hate vs anti-hate mulliganfest non-games. I'll probably give my 14 land, 1 Chrome Mox, 3 Burning Wish list at least one more spin before making a decision about my GP Vegas list.

[Togores]

What's the current thinking regarding the proper number of discards in the 75? Now that the format's shaken out a bit, I'm curious as to whether anyone else is thinking of bringing a fourth Therapy into the sideboard.

Main motivation I had for thinking that would be good is precisely the multi-Fluster/Force question. I've never favored running Xantid Swarm, though, so maybe it depends on the rest of our board. Worth pointing out that Therapy goes really well with Surgical Extraction.

The usual numbers is: 7 discards MD or 6+2 pif. Because pif serves as a 7th one.

[tionaryfoo]

The usual numbers is: 7 discards MD or 6+2 pif. Because pif serves as a 7th one.

Regarding playing 1/2 PIF MD, would running 7 discard & PIF be too much? A popular choice after the top ban has been 2 Dark Petition MD instead of 2 PIF

[ScottW]

Regarding playing 1/2 PIF MD, would running 7 discard & PIF be too much? A popular choice after the top ban has been 2 Dark Petition MD instead of 2 PIF

Always have at least 1 PIF. I think the suggestion was 6 discard and 2 PIF or 7 discard and 1 PIF. I also think 7 discard and 2 PIF is good.

[apistat_commander]

Regarding playing 1/2 PIF MD, would running 7 discard & PIF be too much? A popular choice after the top ban has been 2 Dark Petition MD instead of 2 PIF

I think it also comes down to your meta: the faster your meta (more combo, tempo, aggro) the more you need business spells right away because you can't spend endless time sculpting the perfect hand. However if your meta is slower, you can probably get away with less business and more sculpting/discard. From what I remember of the meta before Miracles (I stopped playing right before that took over) grindy fair decks were all over the place, and you could just eviscerate them G1 unless they were lucky. So upping the amount of tutors gives you a faster, more aggressive G1 which is definitely a good thing against all of the midrange piles.

I've never run two PiF but I'd be curious to hear from folks who do. Unlike any of the tutors or Ad Nauseam, PiF can't find you a win condition. So while it is nice to have and can certainly help to draw, it is not a business spell in the same sense.

[haxorz]

I've never run two PiF but I'd be curious to hear from folks who do. Unlike any of the tutors or Ad Nauseam, PiF can't find you a win condition. So while it is nice to have and can certainly help to draw, it is not a business spell in the same sense.

2x maindeck pif shines in g1 where the only graveyard hate, if any, is deathrite shaman. Storm decks with 2x maindeck pif will should design their 75 so that 1 of the 2 pif can be sideboarded out when appropriate, since this is almost always desirable.

when you have pif + infernal + led, the pif can function as a discard spell or as an additional ritual. the line for the former is led -> infernal (crack led) -> get duress if infernal resolves and flashback pif if infernal is fow'd. the line for the latter is led -> infernal (crack led) -> get cabal ritual -> cabal ritual -> flashback pif.

when you have pif + led + a stocked graveyard, the pif can function as business.

[Ronald Deuce]

I've never run two PiF but I'd be curious to hear from folks who do. Unlike any of the tutors or Ad Nauseam, PiF can't find you a win condition. So while it is nice to have and can certainly help to draw, it is not a business spell in the same sense.

Someone else with more experience might do a better job of covering this, but I think double-Past in Flames is great. And though it's not a tutor, it's definitely still a business spell, though it relies on cantrips or in-'yard tutors to find you what you want if you need to.

It works far more often than it doesn't if you've got a lot of mana, though it definitely leads to a few hair-raising games in which you blow through upwards of 15 topdeck cards looking for a Tutor or Tendrils. It also fails some portion of the time, though—again—less often than it succeeds.

One advantage to Past in Flames-plus-cantrips lines is that they're harder for people to stop with Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, etc. If you're relying on PiF-Tutor plays, those are a lot more vulnerable, though they're also a lot simpler and otherwise preferable.

Recently won a game with Past in Flames in which I had to Ad Nauseam from 5 life. That was a nailbiter.

[apistat_commander]

Someone else with more experience might do a better job of covering this, but I think double-Past in Flames is great. And though it's not a tutor, it's definitely still a business spell, though it relies on cantrips or in-'yard tutors to find you what you want if you need to.

It works far more often than it doesn't if you've got a lot of mana, though it definitely leads to a few hair-raising games in which you blow through upwards of 15 topdeck cards looking for a Tutor or Tendrils. It also fails some portion of the time, though—again—less often than it succeeds.

One advantage to Past in Flames-plus-cantrips lines is that they're harder for people to stop with Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, etc. If you're relying on PiF-Tutor plays, those are a lot more vulnerable, though they're also a lot simpler and otherwise preferable.

Recently won a game with Past in Flames in which I had to Ad Nauseam from 5 life. That was a nailbiter.

Ah, that makes sense. So is your business package?:

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam

Are you also running Dark Petition? I've definitely dug my way to victory through Ponders/Brainstorms/Preordains out of my yard so that is a good point. I've always considered it a "more risky" line of play, but sometimes it is your only option. My concern with adding so many high CC cards to the deck is that each one makes Ad Nauseam worse. Though admittedly, it isn't the best route for combo'ing off in the first place.

[redwall13]

Have been experimenting with the deck in the past weeks. What do you guys think of dark confidant as SB card?

[Winterheart]

Not sure what MUs those would improve tbh.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I don't really like Dark Confidant at all. Other business spells are usually much better.

In more entertaining news (well, at least I hope so), I recorded a league with this oldschool Grinding Station list:

//Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

//Instant
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

//Land
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

//Sorcery
3 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Rite of Flame
2 Tendrils of Agony

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Chrome Mox
SB: 2 Sudden Shock
SB: 2 By Force
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Telemin Performance
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony


#thedailywars #18-22 — Complete Grinding Station League Playlist

Moving forward, I think I want an extra copy of Pyroclasm in the board. I initally thought it was just useful as a Wish target, but in reality, it seems it's a rock solid card in general, I wouldn't mind just boarding two copies in a good number of matchups, most notably Grixis Delver. Telemin Performance comes to mind as a card that could easily be cut to accomodate for the extra 'clasm.

[Sloshthedark]

=/ I was expecting the 3PIF 4ToA monstrosity...

[Ronald Deuce]

Ah, that makes sense. So is your business package?:

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam

Yep. I keep looking for a satisfactory added business card, and I haven't settled on anything yet. There are times when this feels like too little Get There. Ad Nauseam is great, though, and this has been the most stable setup I've tried up to this point, if a little slow. I'm strongly considering Burning Wish, though I won't be getting frequent chances to test it.

Are you also running Dark Petition? I've definitely dug my way to victory through Ponders/Brainstorms/Preordains out of my yard so that is a good point. I've always considered it a "more risky" line of play, but sometimes it is your only option. My concern with adding so many high CC cards to the deck is that each one makes Ad Nauseam worse. Though admittedly, it isn't the best route for combo'ing off in the first place.

I started playing the deck on 2x Petition, 1x PiF/Tendrils/Ad Nauseam. I liked it a lot. It's fragile to countermagic, though.

I then switched one Petition to one Past in Flames. For a while I liked it a lot, but then I started to notice that I was getting awful Ad Nauseas. Cutting Ad Nauseam for Empty and running 1x Petition, 2x PiF is something I've seen people try. Anybody have input on how that works?

Redwall13, I'm with the others about Dark Confidant. It's a fine card, but it doesn't really fit into our gameplan. It sets a clock on us, which we don't want against any kind of aggro, it doesn't interface well with any of our business, and it doesn't do anything the turn we cast it. Feels like the worst imaginable topdeck, too.

IIRC, the main reason people wanted to test it was to deal with Miracles, which doesn't appear to be a problem anymore.

[Togores]

Im playing that set-up now 2 pif-1DP-1etw-1toa.

Has been working more or less for me.

[cheerios]

I played this list yesterday to a top 4 finish in my local monthly win a dual event:

MD
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 probe
3 duress
3 cabal therapy
4 infernal tutor
2 preordain
1 ad nausaeaum
2 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony

SB
3 abrupt decay
2 echoing truth
4 tormod's crypt
1 empty the warrens
4 dread of night
1 xantid swarm

Rd1: Sneak Show 2-1 (on the play) W
g1: my turn 2 kill got flusterstormed, then got followed up by a turn 3 Griselbrand. L
g2: I discard all his business spells and kill him late in the game. W
g3: Mull to 5 but my xantid swarm gets in through show and tell. W

Rd2: Dredge 0-2 (on the draw) L
g1: got turn 1'ed. L
g2: I keep a hand that can kill on turn 3 but I unfortunately get hand raped on turn 2. L

Rd3: Dark Maverick 2-1 (on the draw) W
g1: opponent has a Thalia, DRS, and KOTR by turn 3. L
g2: I kill him on turn 2 through ad naus. W
g3: I win via goblins and mini tendrils, no Thalia here too. W

Rd4: Grixis Delver (on the play) 1-1 D
g1: I win on the 4th turn via tutor chain through 2 dazes, a FOW, and DRS. W
g2: I keep a hand that can kill via natural tendrils but discard pulls me down. L
g3: We go to time. My opponent keeps a hand full of disruption but no clock. Could have won if I had 2 more turns. D

Rd5: RG Lands (on the draw) 2-0 W
g1 and g2: I kill him on turn 2. WW

I end up 7th after swiss.

Quarters: Sneak Show with Omniscience 2-0 W (on the draw)
g1: He mulls to 5 and loses to a ton of discard. My attempt to win here got flustered but I was able to rebuild again thanks to PIF. W
g2: Empty plus cabal therapy gets me there.

Semis: RB Reanimator: 1-2 L (on the draw)
g1: he gets a turn 1 Griselbrand and proceeds to smash me. L
g2: I have a turn 1 kill through ad naus. W
g3: he has a turn 1 Iona. L

I still like the rain of filth and the 2nd PIF game 1. The dread of nights are a waste of space and can possibly go for other stuff. I'm still unsure about removing the green splash or not. I still like the xantid swarms and could possibly add a second one.

[Styroxis]

I took Surfinbird's list to SCG Louisville team constructed open as the legacy player for my team. I am really happy with list.

R1: UW Stoneblade (1-0)
g1: Easy win by discarding the only interaction my opponent had in spell snare to go off with infernal tutor. They had drawn too many midrange matchup cards (StP, Gideon, etc). Just had to wait to hit the second discard. The first was a blind cabal therapy for FOW that missed.
My teammates were able to close out their games quickly and I was unable to finish game 2, but it definitely seemed in my favor

R2: Dead Guy Ale (2-0) with green for DRS
g1: Kept a hand that was a little slow with 2 cabal therapies. My opponent played sfm and on my turn I took his batterskull and hymn. Leaving him with nothing to interact with me and a slow clock. I eventually hit what I needed and went off easily
g2: Turn 2 empty the warrens for 16 goblins following his dark confidant.

R3: Grixis Control (2-0)
g1: Ripped through their hand with 2 discard spells and then Ad Naus for the win
g2: I cast 14 goblin empty the warrens turn 2.

R4: Belcher (2-1) SCG's Emma Handy
g1: OTP Gitaxian probe + Cabal therapy into a hand of probe, probe, simian, simian, taiga, lotus petal, belcher. I incorrectly took belcher, which I discussed with her after the match. She just hit a burning a wish and went for empty and I lost in 2 turns.
g2: OTP gitaxian probe + cabal therapy into empty, empty, elvish, lotus petal, burning wish, simian, rite of flame. I took the emptys. Won the game with a past in flames.
G3: She mulled to 6 and I was able to go off from past in flames again.

R5: Burn (1-2)
g1: I was OTD and my opponent played an eidolon turn 2 locking me out of the game.
g2: I got a turn 2 pif OTP
g3: Kept a sketchy hand with natural tendrils (IIRC tendrils, ponder, island, underground sea, lotus petal, cabal ritual, probe), but I was unable to play it out before the eidolon was played turn 2. I hit a land with my Probe and then with my ponder petal, probe, land. I kept that because for some reason I incorrectly thought I could go off.

R6: Grixis Delver (1-0) OTD
g1: Opponent got a turn 2 pyromancer, but had no interaction. I was left on 4 life and was dead on board, but was able to generate mana and past in flames and have enough blue to cast 4 cantrips in gy for finding a tutor, but the first ponder showed the infernal tutor to win me the game.

R7: Sultai Delver (2-0)
g1: easy win off past in flames. Did not see leovold
g2: Opponent had a hand of snap, snap, surgical, surgical. Opponent surgicaled all my ponders. From then on I did not see a single blue card in my deck and was unable to top deck what I needed.
g3: my opponent played a turn 2 leovold. Turn 4 I go off with an ad nauseam and empty already in hand. I take 2 damage from revealing brainstorm, ritual, petal, LED and stop there. I end my turn with 18 tokens and at 9 life facing a board of DRS, DRS, leovold. He plays a tasigur and passes turn. I swing in with 16 and leave 2 behind for blocks putting him from 18 to 6. He then end of turn shocks me with DRS to 7. He swings with leovold and I chump block and then he replays another leovold with no mana open for DRS activation. My turn I swing in with all 13 for the win.

R8: Show & Tell (2-1) OTD
g1: lost to turn 2 show and tell emrakul
g2: mulliganed to 6 to hand with 2 cabal therapies. First turn I fire off a cabal therapy and my opponent misdirects it. Second turn knowing that I had to disrupt to win I play my second therapy and name show and tell to hit 2. It was easy from there on
g3: opponent mulliganed to 4

R9: 4C Loam (1-2) OTD
g1: Turn 2 gaddock Teeg. I scooped turn 3 when he played liliana of the veil and +1 and I only had black cards to discard. So far I had played island preordian and I wanted my opponent to think I was on show and tell.
g2: Won on a quick empty the warrens turn 2
g3: My opponenet played a turn 1 chalice on 0. Turn 3 I cast a ponder and hit probe, ritual, ad nauseam. I drew the probe and kept the ritual on top. I used all my cards to go off with the empty the warrens in my hand. I made 16 goblins and on my opponents turn he plays a deluge. I draw into ad nauseam. He then plays a gaddock teeg and I dont draw mana or the removal to kill the teeg. It was a misplay to all in on the empty the warrens when I could have kept back one cabal ritual with threshold for ad nauseam

The deck felt amazing and it seemed to me that I was the only limiting factor. I know I could have won every match and every game except OTD games against 4C loam, burn, and show & tell. In my opinion the mainboard is perfect the only thing I would consider is making slight changes to the sideboard. Between 3 of my friends and I, we all played against a total of 2 maverick/D&T decks. I think the dread of nights are amazing in the matchup and definitely make sense to have them to have almost free games. Due to the lack of popularity of the decks I would consider: -1 dread of night, +1 fatal push. Also echoing truth was the weakest card that I sided in and whenever I saw it I did not want it. I understand that is necessary for a lot of matchups to keep it in to have a sufficient number of answers to hate, but I have been thinking about cutting one and moving things around. Maybe swap one for a hurkyl's recall. I was happy with the one by force I saw in the tournament and I think its good, but I need to test more.

Unfortunately my team was just 1 point short of making it to day 2, but we weren't too upset. Overall I felt like the deck was perfect and I would like to thank Surfinbird for the advice and all the hard work and effort put into making the deck and the sideboard decisions.

On a final note, what do you guys think about keeping natural tendrils hands in a 1 tendrils/pif deck against burn for the intention of gaining a bunch of life, but not killing?

[icedagger]

Hi all,

Storm newbie here.

Can anyone suggest a good main deck business package for a meta with a lot of DnT, Reanimator, MUD, and Eldrazi decks? Not too many decks with FoW over here, but they do show up regularly.

I'm currently using 2 PiF, 1 Tendrils, 1 EtW and 1 DP (CabalTherapy's list with DP replacing Grim Tutor, and EtW replacing Ad Nauseam). I've been liking how it plays so far but am looking for advice on tuning it for the local meta.

Thanks!

[Ronald Deuce]

Can anyone suggest a good main deck business package for a meta with a lot of DnT, Reanimator, MUD, and Eldrazi decks? Not too many decks with FoW over here, but they do show up regularly.

I think against Eldrazi and D&T having two Petitions is probably better than having two Past in Flames. Empty's great for those two, but it'll go south quickly if D&T lands a Batterskull. I don't think it's ever a good idea to run Empty against Reanimator. Griselbrand will race it, and Elesh Norn will wipe it. Ad Nauseam is definitely a better card for that matchup.

I don't remember the last time I played against MUD, so I'm not really sure what the best setup is there; I'm guessing you'll want Ad Nauseam. If they've got Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb in the maindeck (I've seen that from Tezzerator fwiw), Empty's bad.

Generally, Empty the Warrens will get free wins occasionally, but it's also a fragile and easily beatable wincon in a lot of matchups. On the other hand, I wouldn't run Ad Nauseam maindeck if you're set on two Past in Flames plus Petition(s). So generally, I'm guessing you'll want 2x Petition, 1x PiF, 1x Ad Nauseam because that's the fastest setup I've tried. Weak to Force of Will but great against lock pieces/hatebears.

[fangzie]

Empty's great for those two, but it'll go south quickly if D&T lands a Batterskull

Honestly, Empty is often pretty good against batterskull, and depending on how much you empty for can often race it. Check the epic storm website for exact math, but I believe 14 goblins before SFM comes down is the golden number. 10 if it's T1 on the play. And of course this gets better if you manage to drop a therapy in the yard at any point as grabbing Batterskull is turned off until they are able to deal with the therapy. I've also found, on more than one occasion, that even if they do manage to stabilise after a fast empty then they've usually given you enough time to put together a small tendrils for the win.

None of this is to say that you're wrong, and that an Empty can't go south, however in my experience, it's typically extremely effective vs DnT, the only proviso being you get it online early

[icedagger]

@Ronald Deuce, @fangzie:

Thanks for the insight! I'll try out the 2x DP, 1 Ad Naus, 1 PiF, 1 ToA package at the next weekly.

Would replacing one of those DPs with Burning Wish work out? I've been running a bwish in the sideboard as a backup against surgical extraction, but I've been thinking of moving it to the main deck so I can pull an EtW or a second tendrils from the board if needed.