The new Legacy metagame

[Ronald Deuce]

Are we on denial, or is this an echo chamber? There's no control, not even close. The 4cc (or that screw-up name czech pile) is nowhere near the classical sense of control, neither is Standstill. Mid-range strategy is called mid-range at best, don't try to sneak the word control into it.

No true Scotsman, etc.

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic. Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

[CptHaddock]

No true Scotsman, etc.

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic. Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

You had to be a top mind to use 1 white mana to cast a terminus.

[twndomn]

No true Scotsman, etc.

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic. Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

That's what the contributors of this thread is all about, troll legacy in its abstract, did you find anything constructive out of this thread?

[Crimhead]

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic.

I agree with this.

It's a feature of midrange decks that they can just as easily play "control" or "beatdown" as the circumstances dictate. This is why Maverick, Blade, Aggro Loam, and Shardless are considered midrange.

The Landstill, Jund Depths, and Topless Terminus lists we are seeing look like they would have a pretty rough time trying to play "beatdown". To me, that makes the "hard" control - they are dedicated to playing that roll.

Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

Decks that are more dedicated to playing control (or aggro, for that matter) add a uniqueness to the game that we don't see if all the fair decks are aggro/control hybrids such as tempo decks and midrange decks.

That's what the contributors of this thread is all about, troll legacy in its abstract...

This exactly how I perceive those who try to deny a distinction between hard control vs midrange control.

[Noctalor]

Are we arguing that Lands is not a control deck?

[Crimhead]

Are we arguing that Lands is not a control deck?

I would argue R/G Lands is a combo/control deck.
RUG Lands can pull off fast combo wins, but these are unusual enough I would consider it hard control personally (as somebody who plays both versions).

Edit - more to the point, Lands has been invisible in the meta lately. Still seems like a solid choice imo, but they don't add much to diversity if they aren't being played.

[maharis]

Are we arguing that Lands is not a control deck?

Control decks literally only untap, draw a card, pass, then counter your spell*. Lands can't counter a spell, therefore it's not a control deck.

*N.B.: Does not apply to Standstill decks for some reason

[Whitefaces]

Control decks literally only untap, draw a card, pass, then counter your spell*. Lands can't counter a spell, therefore it's not a control deck.

*N.B.: Does not apply to Standstill decks for some reason

Hear hear!

[Crimhead]

Is anybody actually arguing that Jund Depths isn't a control deck?

[Kanti]

Control decks play draw,go until t4 where they cast Wrath of God and follow it up with a Serra's Angel. Where the fuck did you people grow up?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Control decks mill people with nephalia drownyard

Creatures are for nerds and dorks, interaction is for suckers

[Fox]

Control decks mill people with nephalia drownyard

Naw, Drownyard is how you beat a true control deck most reliably. When that's your most reliable wincon, you're up against a true control deck.

[tescrin]

My blade deck is actually a combo/control deck. I combo'd Moorland Haunt with playing creatures so I can use it's activated ability (COMBO!), or counter spells with the open mana (Control.) Opponent's never see it coming and all the sudden they're gettin' beaten down by a 1/1 Flyer with Flash.

Flash in a 1/1 to chump your Snap? That's true control.
And combo, because I used two cards.

[LOLWut]

True control decks don't play a wincon.

[Whitefaces]

Relic of Progenitus is a great win con if you're playing online.

[twndomn]

This exactly how I perceive those who try to deny a distinction between hard control vs midrange control.

This is an example of a troll making up terminology when as one goes, shifting argument.

I cast Small pox, am I all the sudden a control deck?

I cast Thoughtseize, activate Liliana, am I all the sudden a control deck?

I cast Tangle Wire, Chalice, am I all the sudden a control deck?

First define/draw the distinction and the definition for:
prison strategy
resource denial

then you get to describe what control, in its purest classical sense, is.

Let's mock other users on this forum on this arbitrary context-shifting concept. That's the motivation of this thread.

[Dice_Box]

When will people stop acting like Miracles was not a prison deck? Control this, control that, when your game plan is to lock someone out of casting a spell for the whole game, your a prison deck at your heart.

Still unsure how Standstill is not control though.

[Zombie]

When I personally think of what a control deck looks like, it looks more like this:

4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will

2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

1 Island
1 Swamp

than it does "cast spell 1, cast spell 2, game turned into a farce". That pattern is telltale prison deck stuff as far as I'm concerned. Saying that the above list is not a control deck sounds profoundly strange, as well. We're not talking 4xgoyf.dec here, we're talking cantrips that live to block/stall, reuse for removal, CA spells and countermagic, we see countermagic, discard, card selection, intent on grinding people out. How that is not control is beyond me.

(As an aside, go play Pauper. This just 5-0ed.)

[Crimhead]

When will people stop acting like Miracles was not a prison deck? Control this, control that, when your game plan is to lock someone out of casting a spell for the whole game, your a prison deck at your heart.

Still unsure how Standstill is not control though.

Standstill is with one of the three (recently successful) decks I had identified as control. Of course it's control!

Also, why are even talking about (counter-top) Miracles? I'm more interested in what kind of control decks are going to be prominent now. Too early to say, but it's looking promising. :)

[Tormod]

I gotta agree with dice box and zombie on this one. Top was combo prison. Miracles durdled like so many prison decks looking for its win condition.