[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[eldub]

[SCD: Sinkhole]

Interesting UB(g) Delver Stifle + Sinkhole variant that took down an MKM Trial over the weekend:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15624&f=LE

19 LANDS
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

12 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker
2 True-Name Nemesis

29 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Sinkhole
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize

SIDEBOARD
2 Baleful Strix
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
================
Just a few questions to the group at large:

- Is Sinkhole a viable way to constrict our opponents resources (as opposed to Hymn)?

- Is playing a pair of Thoughtseize along-side Stifle reasonable? (I assume you have to wait till T2+ to TS if you have Stifle in hand) - tempo vs tap-out type of plans

- Thoughts on the basic Island and Swamp as ways to overcome the mirror/Wasteland decks? -- I've had poor results with basic lands in Delver shells historically, but this one is basically just two color so might be a different story.

[btm10]

Sinkhole is fine alongside Stifle, but I don't see the attraction to mana denial as "plan A" in Delver right now. Not only is Deathrite ubiquitous, but mana denial is also the weakest form of disruption against combo. That list likely got a lot of value from the surprise factor, but I'm skeptical of its long-term chances if it becomes a known quantity.

[tescrin]

That list likely got a lot of value from the surprise factor, but I'm skeptical of its long-term chances if it becomes a known quantity.

Why? What are they gonna do? Fetch basics?
Mana denial's weak point is mostly storm IMO, and ANT often gets away with it by fetching basics; which sinkhole actually messes up. Not the most amazing card in the history of the game, but I don't get how knowing you're getting sinkholed while Delver/goyfs beat you up helps you. A 12-land deck isn't going to mull for more lands I don't think.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd at least like justification of your point as right now it's an unsubstantiated claim. Why is sinkhole worse if you know about it? It's worse against Delver/Aggro because of the low curve, but it's good against the midrange goodstuffs that can't hardly pay their mana; and against Combos that rely on basics (Sneakshow, Omnishow, Ant, to a lesser degree Elves) a sinkhole can result in an easy win. I think Stoneblade decks are especially weak to it since they bank on basics getting them from a-to-b against delver

[btm10]

Why? What are they gonna do? Fetch basics?
Mana denial's weak point is mostly storm IMO, and ANT often gets away with it by fetching basics; which sinkhole actually messes up. Not the most amazing card in the history of the game, but I don't get how knowing you're getting sinkholed while Delver/goyfs beat you up helps you. A 12-land deck isn't going to mull for more lands I don't think.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd at least like justification of your point as right now it's an unsubstantiated claim. Why is sinkhole worse if you know about it? It's worse against Delver/Aggro because of the low curve, but it's good against the midrange goodstuffs that can't hardly pay their mana; and against Combos that rely on basics (Sneakshow, Omnishow, Ant, to a lesser degree Elves) a sinkhole can result in an easy win. I think Stoneblade decks are especially weak to it since they bank on basics getting them from a-to-b against delver

Sinkholing a deck full of mana creatures seems like a truly terrible plan, and it's not much better against decks that run tons of accelerants in the form of Sol lands, Rituals, and Lotus Petals and have the ability to win off of a single land. Once someone knows to expect Sinkhole they're much less likely to do things like keep one-landers, or throw back extra lands with Brainstorm, or shuffle two-land Ponders once they already have a second land in play.

[Cpt_Lucifer]

Hi guys,

New to the forum but been interested in BUG Delver for ages. I was hoping to get some advice on manabase composition (kinda ties in with the previous posts about the Stifle + Sinkhole list posted above)...

I am about 99% of the way there getting the deck built but only have access to 3 Underground Seas, 1 Tropical Island and 2 Bayous... I have been considering that I need another coloured source but wasn't sure if it was worth adding a basic Island or a Watery Grave?

Any advice?

The list I am building is...

4 Delver
4 Deathrite
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True Name
2 Leovold
1 Gurglemag

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Decay
2 Push
4 Hymn

10 assorted fetches (Deltas/Verdants/Mistys)
3 Seas
1 Trop
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland

Recently made the switch from 4 Goyfs to a 2/2 split with True Name hence the need for more lands.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Ixbpoqdxl]

only have access to 3 Underground Seas, 1 Tropical Island and 2 Bayous... I have been considering that I need another coloured source but wasn't sure if it was worth adding a basic Island or a Watery Grave?

Usually 6 fetchable sources is normal. The main argument for running the full 4 U-Seas is if you're planning to play Jace, the Mind Sculptor out of the sideboard. I wouldn't add another coloured source, but Basic Island is the worst choice.

Basics are good if you have a lot to work with, but the mana bases in delver decks are so tight that you can't afford to. It sounds good on the surface, to "play around Wasteland", but the best actual way to do that here is slam duals and get wasted. Basic Island doesn't cast DRS on turn one, doesnt cast Hymn on two, and leads to deceptively terrible opening hands.

10 assorted fetches (Deltas/Verdants/Mistys)
3 Seas
1 Trop
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland

Looking at this, I would be playing 9 fetches, the same 3/1/2 split of Sea/Trop/Bayou, but I would really look for the 4th Wasteland. So many games are won off of the back of this card. If you want 20 lands, then 10 fetches and the 3/1/2/4 mana source lands are what I would run.

2 True Name
2 Leovold

Although this isn't what you asked, I'd be very nervous playing four hard-to-cast-3-drops in BUG Delver. Has this creature base been working out for you? I prefer to have a list that's lower to the ground, because in my experience, tapping out on T2 for one threat is a lot more comfortable than on T3.

[cliqueMage]

Although this isn't what you asked, I'd be very nervous playing four hard-to-cast-3-drops in BUG Delver. Has this creature base been working out for you? I prefer to have a list that's lower to the ground, because in my experience, tapping out on T2 for one threat is a lot more comfortable than on T3.

Although TNN costs 3, it is a hard to kill him, some decks just can't. With Jitte is even better.

A way to minimize 3cc drops is using 2/4/1 TNN/Goyfs/Angler or Tomstalker. Opinions? Thanks!

[Emurian]

Hey guys,

I would like to gain some input, last week I cut through the knot and ordered 3 underground sea's, 1 tropical, 2 goyf. I already have the largest part of the BUG shell [FOW's, 2 TNN, 2-3 liliana, 1 jace]

I have some question regarding the land base:
#1: Fetches, I have 4 polluted delta's, I see people here using misty rainforest and verdant catacombs as the other fetches. Which one is the most important? Or should I get like a 3/3 split? The total amount is 10 from what I see here, would like to know which one is also rated the more important one, catacombs or misty?

#2: Can I get away with 3 underground sea's? Or is the 4th one a hard needed part of the list? I also see people vary here with 3-4 sea's and 1-2 trops. Can you point out the main deciding factor that makes you choose a 4/1 or a 3/2 split? (I assume TNN, Liliana]

#3 2 Goyf is all im gonna buy, tbh I hate this card to its guts [as opposing Elf or Dnt player I always so easily hold back goyfs that I don't see the rsn why he should cost that much $$] Is it viable to go like a 2 TNN 2 Goyf 1 Leovold ? I see some people here cutting goyfs entirely, others pointed out that Goyf is better in a heavier combo meta, whereas TNN is better in a fair meta. Did I read and interpret this right?

#4 No basics, you guys might be used to this but I dread this as a non blue Legacy player. From what I read people opt to run 2 basics max, do these take the fetch slots?

Would appreciate if someone would post 2-3 landbases and explain a bit which one belongs to what sort of shell. - 1 list including 2 basics-

#5 Daze, a card which I see many of you run, but a card that I don't like at all in Legacy. Granted aside of a short time with Infect I never played blue in legacy, thing is, Daze is a card that loses value fast, how much ''better'' is daze then spell pierce? Is spell pierce a legit replacement or is the daze essential for the tempo plan?

List im currently working towards:
4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Goyf
2 TNN
1 Leovold

4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Abrupt decay
3 Hymm to tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Spell pierce

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 JTMS


4 Wasteland
3 Underground sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical
3 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest

SB
1 Golgari charm
1 Pithing needle
3 fatal push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Null rod
1 Sylvan library
1 Vendillion clique
1 Diablic edict
1 Surgical extraction
1 Spell pierce
1 Invasive surgery

Thank you for your time in advance.

[btm10]

1. It doesn't matter which BUG fetches you run. Misty, Catacombs, and Delta all find all of your duals.

2. Yes. A fourth Sea and second Bayou stabilize your BB a little, but 3/2/1 Sea/Trop/Bayou is workable with 9-10 fetches.

3. 2 Goyf is fine (it's really at its worst against D&T and Elves; it's the most important creature against Eldrazi and 4c Loam), but I'd run a singleton TNN and a Delve fatty (probably Tombstalker) rather than 2 TNN and a maindeck Leovold.

4. No basics. You end up either dedicating too many slots to lands or being unable to cast your spells if you run basics. The Stifle version can sort of accomodate an Island, but even that's suboptimal and makes you worse against Wasteland. You need to be able to cast Deathrite, Delver, Goyf, Decay, and Hymn off of two lands. Shardless and BUG midrange/control run 21-23 lands (and fewer Wastelands) and can accommodate the basics.

5. Daze has a steep learning curve and a high floor. It's often just a free counter if your opponent taps out, but mid-to-late game Dazes offer you an opportunity to squeeze out tight games by stopping an opponent from casting two spells in one turn, or recurring Punishing Fire, or equipping a creature with Jitte/Sword for the turn you need to untap and cast Decay or push one last attack through to win. It also lets you extract slightly more value from lategame Brainstorms by bouncing a land to tax your opponent for a turn and then shuffling the land back. There are all kinds of other uses for Daze as well. The card is sometimes frustrating, but playing it is a huge benefit of playing a Delver deck.

Also, you should definitely be running at least a third Ponder before you add a 13th creature, and MD Jace is somewhat questionable to begin with since you don't have a ton of great blockers and or sweepers to stabilize the board before dropping him. Eight filtering slots are basically essential to running such a mana-intensive deck on 18-20 lands, and whether that's 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder or 4 Brainstorm/3 Ponder/1 Sylvan Library generally doesn't matter.

[Ixbpoqdxl]

Hey guys,

I would like to gain some input, last week I cut through the knot and ordered 3 underground sea's, 1 tropical, 2 goyf. I already have the largest part of the BUG shell [FOW's, 2 TNN, 2-3 liliana, 1 jace]

Hey congrats,

The above post by BTM covers everything really well--what I have to say doesn't add too much information, so I'll only add a bit to some of your quesitons.


3) Goyf is your fastest clock. It's a vanilla idiot, but it's almost always a 4/5 on turn 2, and against combo it's the best way to ensure a threat and then hold up interaction for the following turns. Delver requires (some) setup and DRS needs one untapped land each turn, so they're a little more unreliable at closing the games quickly. They are better as slower, but evasive threats.

4) I would say zero basics is the appropriate max. Delver decks have intense mana costs, and basics actually do more harm than good when ever land needs to cast something ASAP. Basics also convince you to keep unassumingly bad hands, or force you to mulligan good hands that you would have kept if you had fetches or duals instead.

For example, look at this mull to 6:

Island, Deathrite Shaman, Wasteland, Hymn to Tourach, Ponder, Fatal Push.

If the land is legitimately any other mana source than Wasteland, it's great. The problem arises when you think that it's keepable because you have Island + Ponder turn one, but you're literally high-rolling to hit a second land, and even then you aren't slamming Hymn on curve. If you don't find a second land, it's game over, whereas you can survive on a single dual land and Deathrite to stabilize for a little bit.

What I'm getting at here is basics lead to deceptively bad hands. Protecting yourself from opposing Wastelands is done best by having a variety of dual lands in play, instead of one and a basic.

5) I agree with you that Daze is a card that loses value fast, and it's one of the cards that goes to sideboard and back to maindeck in games 2 and 3. The way that it's "better" than Spell Pierce is that it costs "zero" mana.

More appropriately, it allows you to tap-out on your main phase, and still have protection for something that your opponent is going to do. Protecting your Turn 1 Deathrite from a Bolt with Daze puts you really far ahead in the tempo gameplan. Alongside your own Wastelands, the "pay 1" aspect of Daze is really relevant, even if it seems that your opponents can easily play around it.

[RStien321]

5) I agree with you that Daze is a card that loses value fast, and it's one of the cards that goes to sideboard and back to maindeck in games 2 and 3. The way that it's "better" than Spell Pierce is that it costs "zero" mana.

More appropriately, it allows you to tap-out on your main phase, and still have protection for something that your opponent is going to do. Protecting your Turn 1 Deathrite from a Bolt with Daze puts you really far ahead in the tempo gameplan. Alongside your own Wastelands, the "pay 1" aspect of Daze is really relevant, even if it seems that your opponents can easily play around it.

Daze is also an ideal counterspell in the early turns against combo. It allows the deck to tap out on turn 2 for Hymn and still have a zero mana interaction spell at the ready. BUG built with Hymn wants to tap out every turn and it gains its tempo from that way of deck construction. Spell pierece and stifle run against that grain while daze compliments it perfectly.

Daze plays out differently in different matchups, and aside from brainstorm is the most skill intensive card in the deck. The biggest mistake I see players make with daze is, on the play in a Delver mirror, have no turn one play and daze an opponents spell. This gives up the mana advantage of being on the play and your opponent is a card up.

[grizzle_grizzle]

#2: Can I get away with 3 underground sea's? Or is the 4th one a hard needed part of the list? I also see people vary here with 3-4 sea's and 1-2 trops. Can you point out the main deciding factor that makes you choose a 4/1 or a 3/2 split? (I assume TNN, Liliana]

Personally, I feel very uncomfortable running only six fetchable lands. Also, I think the 2nd bayou is required if you're going to run Hymn. You can get away with a 3-2-2 distribution though, I did it for years before i could get my hands on the fourth Usea.

[H]

Personally, I feel very uncomfortable running only six fetchable lands. Also, I think the 2nd bayou is required if you're going to run Hymn. You can get away with a 3-2-2 distribution though, I did it for years before i could get my hands on the fourth Usea.

7 fetchable is much better in the face of Wastelands, also. Even then, there are the awful times where you get locked out of Green mana versus a good draw from D&T between Wastes and Ports. Also, keep in mind that the 20 land versions were mostly made to leverage Liliana of the Veil too, so the greater land count also supported a higher-than-usual Delver curve. Versus most decks that didn't run Wastelands, I would often board out a Bayou.

I believe that Bob Huang, aka Griselpuff, was (at least) top 4 at yesterday's Quest for Power 113 person event with this deck. I'd guess he was on the Hymn version, because that is what he usually favors.

[apistat_commander]

I was hoping to get feedback on a few questions regarding BUG Delver. To preface, I cashed out of the game 4 years ago and sold most of my stuff that wasn't on the reserve list. Getting back in the game now and seeing the number of reprints, I'm much, much less comfortable buying things that are highly priced but definitely going to be reprinted in this case: Goyf and Liliana of the Veil. So I'm trying to find a BUG Delver shell that works without them, but I fully recognize this might not be possible. So if you can humor my suboptimal suggestions, I'd like some feedback on these ideas:

- Is it even worth trying to make BUG Delver work without Goyfs/Lilianas? I can just as easily jam Grixis Delver, but there is something so satisfying about playing Hymn, Abrupt Decay, and having DRS actually be in your colors.

- Here is the creature base I was thinking of running in lieu of having Goyfs:

Creatures (13):
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Tombstalker
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest

I got rolled this weekend by DnT where my curve felt a little too high, but in playing against it last night I went 4-0 in games, so I'm wondering if it might have just been draws/pilot. TNN and Tombstalker are amazing when I can get them down.

- My meta is particularly combo heavy so I'm running an additional Thoughtseize in the main/2 in the board. I'm currently running 6 removal spells in 4 Abrupt Decay/2 Fatal Push. What mix of removal do you run? I was think of dropping an AD to go up to a 2nd Thoughtseize maindeck.

- I mostly like my board, but I don't feel like I ever bring in JTMS. I'm running 20 lands to support all my 3-drops, so I was thinking of cutting him to jam two Dread of Nights in the board but that feels like overkill. I was really liking the singleton Loam and Library out of the board, both of those are awesome for grindy MUs.

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Invasive Surgery
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Dismember
1x Fatal Push
2x Marsh Casualties

[H]

- Is it even worth trying to make BUG Delver work without Goyfs/Lilianas? I can just as easily jam Grixis Delver, but there is something so satisfying about playing Hymn, Abrupt Decay, and having DRS actually be in your colors.

There are indeed plenty of upsides to being in BUG. While 'Goyf is a damn good card, I think it is possible, even if not exactly optimal, to do without him. Liliana is definitely a mixed bag, depending on your meta. When she is good, she is really good. When she is bad, she is really bad. Plenty of people who own them never run them either.

- Here is the creature base I was thinking of running in lieu of having Goyfs:

Creatures (13):
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Tombstalker
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest

I got rolled this weekend by DnT where my curve felt a little too high, but in playing against it last night I went 4-0 in games, so I'm wondering if it might have just been draws/pilot. TNN and Tombstalker are amazing when I can get them down.

Well, Death and Taxes is a rough matchup 'Goyf or not, even though he does help sometimes. While this configuration feels a little light on aggressiveness, I don't think it is bad, per se. Just possibly awkward. Especially versus something like Death and Taxes. Honestly, I personally think that if you want to eschew 'Goyfs, I'd drop Delver altogether and go a little bigger, more mid-range, because TA's tempo plan is already not great and no real two drops certainly compounds that problem.

- My meta is particularly combo heavy so I'm running an additional Thoughtseize in the main/2 in the board. I'm currently running 6 removal spells in 4 Abrupt Decay/2 Fatal Push. What mix of removal do you run? I was think of dropping an AD to go up to a 2nd Thoughtseize maindeck.

That seems like a very meta dependent question. If the meta is a Combo-centric as you seem to imply, I don't think that is a bad choice at all.

- I mostly like my board, but I don't feel like I ever bring in JTMS. I'm running 20 lands to support all my 3-drops, so I was thinking of cutting him to jam two Dread of Nights in the board but that feels like overkill. I was really liking the singleton Loam and Library out of the board, both of those are awesome for grindy MUs.

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Invasive Surgery
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Dismember
1x Fatal Push
2x Marsh Casualties

Jace is really good, but you've got to feel confident in bringing him in where he can shine. He is the king top-deck, since he almost certainly wins the game on an empty board. But you don't want him versus things like Death and Taxes, because you probably won't ever cast him. You want him in grindy mid-range mirrors (D&T is a different animal) mostly. Although, I don't think it is bad to bring him in versus combo, even though you might be dead before you cast him. In this case he adds to your Blue count for FOW and if you can hit them with discard early then land him, +2 can hold them off assembling a combo on you.

[dredge90]

Why would you want marsh casualties over golgari charm? Charm is soooo flexible killing all the things mc does but also kills enchantments which is really important. I can understand running casualties if you're trying to win the goyf fight, but I feel like we have that covered pretty well with decays, push, lotv, etc.

[Ixbpoqdxl]

Marsh Casualties is better when you're running your own True-Name Nemesis, because G-Charm wraths your own board as well.

[tescrin]

There are also fringe cases where you get to kick it and wrath things like Deathblade, Elf, or similar boardstates. Not exactly where you want to be and not the reason for putting it there, but it's not a strictly worse GCharm

[dredge90]

All valid points. I don't play tnn so it never hurts me but i can't say enough but how good golgari charm x2 has been for me. I literally just played a tezzerator player and wrathed his board one game and in another game I planned on killing his chains and then switched gears when he played ee on one after playing his strix and being unable to activate that turn allowed me to turn around and save my guys from the ee.

[H]

All valid points. I don't play tnn so it never hurts me but i can't say enough but how good golgari charm x2 has been for me. I literally just played a tezzerator player and wrathed his board one game and in another game I planned on killing his chains and then switched gears when he played ee on one after playing his strix and being unable to activate that turn allowed me to turn around and save my guys from the ee.

There is no doubt that Charm is far more flexible and therefor has a good deal more utility, in the above proposed list I think killing your own TNN is just not an acceptable compromise. It just has to be Casualties in that case, really.

It's not like that is so outlandish, the 18 Land, Stifle-Consfidant lists ran 2x Casualties in the board too.