I meant both Deathrite Shaman and Elves the deck, I think Contagion is worth looking at again if Elves break out.Originally Posted by Echelon
It may be helpful to post your decklist so we know what you are working with.
Changing topics, is this the place to vary a bit into making this a more multiplayer type deck?
I've been tinkering with a spy-less, probe-less, fearless version. The goal with this is just for casual magic and the occasional multiplayer game. Free for all, or 2+ headed giant. I don't run up against top tier decks here so I wasn't really trying to be the guy to wipe out everyone all the time and be the jerk that picks on kids. I don't know if "playing with my food" is any nicer, necessarily, but I feel like it adds an element of a challenge to the deck building. Plus I like graveyard decks, so that is why I am here.
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgram
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
2 Grave Crawler
2 Flayer
4 Bridge From Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dakmore Salvage
Variance from most lists here:
-3 or -4 Spy
+1 Flayer
-4 Probe
-1 chancellor (my addition, as a single)
-1 Grislebrand (my addition)
-2 riders
I haven't tested this one enough to determine speed, but here are my findings:
-More resilient to Thalia (prevalent in my non-tourney, casual meta)
-Can go toe to toe with creature decks better than combo version, basically buying time to "go off" or accumulate enough tokens to overrun for when the combo just doesn't want to appear in the yard, or the dredging just never materializes.
-Ghasts give more DR fodder, and more Amalgram triggers. Also goes nicely with a Flayer on board. Also more Ichy food in a pinch. Same with Grave Crawler, but having to pay the mana is a huge downside, esp when it doesn't have haste so i'm not 100% on these right now.
-Using the flayers and smaller creatures, it allows the damage to be divied up more (since this was multi player oriented, I wanted to have more than a one and done shot with the GGT). Bonus - if you get 2 flayers on board, its essentially game for at least one opponent anyway (4 for first, 8 for second, 10 if one more gets caballed/sacced for DR thanks to the undying).
-More creatures on board = more players/plansewalkers that can be attacked.
Downside:
-I miss the probes. Not only for the draw but for the hits with CT, and also knowing what kind of counter risk I am at. With the extra returning creatures I think its actually a touch more robust to counter magic, but I can't confirm this just yet.
-Less robust to combo. More misses on CT without the probes.
-See note above about probably being a tad slower.
-GGTs tend to come out smaller as there are more creatures on the board instead of the 'yard, generally. But if there are more in play, I don't see this as a bad thing. Just depends on the end goal win condition.
-still no answer to enchantments or artifacts once on board. Sideboard could handle this if needed.
Misc Thoughts:
-Thought about the myriad ability creatures that put in copies of themselves attacking all opponents. This could have negative synergy with Bridge depending on the blocker situation.
-Kessig Cagebreaker that puts a token into play attacking for each creature in your graveyard (and they stay in play after). I haven't tested this one out but could see some potential for a larger multiplayer game.
-the usual FKZ to get +1/+1 and haste for a large horde.
-Realm Razer vs Land decks in a pinch. Or if you wanted haste, avalanche riders if there was just one target land giving trouble. upside there is with the echo cost you get to sac it for tokens potentially.
-the FZK kin that gives them flying instead to get around moats.
I'm sure its pretty similar to other builds posted here in this thread but I thought this seemed to be the most likely to be able to overpower multiple players on a creature front. If its not, do I get to name it? Lol.
Last edited by ronco; 05-09-2017 at 04:36 PM. Reason: Adding in quote
To mess with your noodle a little more - sometimes it's best not to sideboard at all and just go for speed. This holds true mostly for the Spy-list (without FoWs) though.
But please post your list.
Seconded!
I agree!
It seems I/we beat you to it. Go a bunch of pages back (17 through 21) - it's named Horde Mode.
Last edited by Echelon; 05-10-2017 at 05:13 AM.
I agree with the no sideboard, go for speed plan in some matchups. I got a turn 3 kill vs Sneak and Show last night. Turn 1 clean-up, discard Phantasmagorian. Eot pitch GGt, Bridge, Amalgam, cycle 3 Street Wraiths, Dredge 18. Turn 2 DR Flayer, it's Forced, DR again, DR GGT Good Game. in Game 2 they put Griselbrand in play on turn 2 and I beat them on turn 3 :)
Yep, saw that after Amalgram came out. Its a fun build to play for sure. I was just seeing if there was a more casual, more multi player version with other, non-standard creatures (myriad, etc), or if that is the best that can be done with this style of play. I don't really play tourneys which is why I was heading down that road.
Thanks.
Let's resume discussing this deck. It's pretty good right now for those playing Legacy on the cheap.
I bought into the deck on MTGO. Don't have a lot of LGS's nearby and don't have a whole lot of money (read: very broke) so I went with what I know best. Have history with the deck, which you can read about here. Altogether, I invested approximately $40 into MTGO. Good deal. Here's what I played:
16 Dredgers
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Contagion
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
2 Call to the Netherworld
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Sideboard
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Sickening Shoal
1 Contagion
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Realm Razer
I could not locate Ashen Rider beforehand because I didn't try hard enough (lame). I couldn't afford Unmask or Force of Will either, and I didn't think it was realistic to play Disrupting Shoal without it. Realm Razer is trash obviously but it was free; I won't use it again. I have enjoyed the results of testing out Call to the Netherworld and while I don't think 2 is the right number, I'll keep trying different numbers.
I joined the Competitive MTGO league with my last 12 tickets. Here is what happened.
Round 1: Grixis Delver
Lost this match.
Game 1: Villain leads with a Deathrite Shaman. I don't have removal and have to spend a few turns discarding stuff. I don't find a Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith and I die to a Delver and Young Pyromancer.
--Add: 1 Contagion, 2 Sickening Shoal; Out: Gitaxian Probe, Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell
Game 2: My opening eight contains 3 Street Wraith, Call to the Netherworld, Phantasmagorian, Golgari Grave-Troll, Golgari Thug, and Dread Return. I clog the battlefield on turn 2 with about 10 zombies.
Game 3: Villain puts me on the play and leads Deathrite Shaman. I don't have either saving cards and Contagion it, but I can't ramp up quick enough to avoid Gurmag Angler and True-Name Nemesis.
Round 2: Sneak and Show
Won this match.
Game 1: I have Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian in the opener, but dredging goes slowly. My opponent durdles around while I assemble creatures but doesn't Show and Tell until turn 4. Right before, I Dread Return a Stinkweed Imp, making about a dozen Zombies. This, along with Narcomoeba, provides a stopper to his Show and Tell for Griselbrand, while I put into play a 9/9 Golgari Grave-Troll. He draws off of Griselbrand, plays Sneak Attack, and puts Emrakul into play. My fliers, however, stave off elimination when I have enough Zombies to survive Emrakul.
--Add: 4 Chancellor of the Annex; Out: 3 Contagion
Game 2: Chancellor runs down a Lotus Petal, but he played Grafdigger's Cage turn 1. Since I don't have removal, I play through and realize that it might not be instant death. I discard enough to Show and Tell an 8/8 Grave-Troll to go against his Griselbrand. It isn't enough though, and I die next turn to Sneak Attacked Emrakul.
Game 3: Chancellor runs down a Ponder. I'm able to dredge 3 Narcomoebas on the second turn, and some dredged Therapies are Forced. He isn't able to find Bridge and doesn't play either bomb, allowing me to beat over three turns.
Round 3: Miracles with Unexpectedly Absent
Won this match.
Game 1: Villain plays Portent, Predict, and a bunch of blue spells, but doesn't find any white removal, and I make a horde of Zombies to win on turn 3. Started with Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian.
--In: 1 Sire of Insanity, 4 Chancellor; Out: 3 Contagion, 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Gitaxian Probe
Game 2: We both are durdling around for a few turns while I dredge 2 Narcomoebas. I dredge all 4 Therapies and nab Predict from his hand. Then, I return Sire of Insanity and he scoops. Nice card.
Round 4: Epic Storm
WON this match.
Game 1: Was killed on villain's turn 2. Nothing to report.
--Add: 4 Chancellor of the Annex, 4 Faerie Macabre; Out: 3 Contagion, 2 Dread Return, 1 Flayer of the Hatebound, 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Shambling Shell
Game 2: Started with Chancellor and Faerie Macabre in hand. Villain Probed, then Therapied away Faerie. We both durdled, and I ripped a Faerie before passing again. In response to his Cabal Ritual for threshold, I discarded Faerie to take him below threshold. He ramped out to Ad Nauseum and drew 11 cards to go to 2 life. Next turn I dredged a Narcomoeba and Therapied a hand of 3 Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, and Island. I took Tutor (feedback?). He couldn't find the win next turn through a bunch of cantrips and scooped.
Game 3: Started with Chancellor, Faerie, some Phantasmagorians, and two Golgari Thugs. At his end of turn, I discarded a Thug, Chancellor, and Phantasmagorian at once. He played Surgical Extraction on Thug, and I responded by discarding Faerie to exile Thug and a Ponder. Then discarded the second Thug and dredged Therapy and a Narcomoeba. Therapy nabbed 2 Infernal Tutors, and he couldn't catch up.
Round 5: Death Tax (white)
Won this match.
Game 1: Here, I had Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in the opener. He played Smuggler's Copter and AEther Vial. He played Stoneforge Mystic but I was able to cast both Probe and Therapy on turn 3 to nab Batterskull. I returned Flayer to the field and cleaned up his guys.
--Add: 1 Contagion, 2 Sickening Shoal, 1 Elesh Norn; Out: 2 Call to the Netherworld, 1 Probe, 1 Nether Shadow
Game 2: He played AEther Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, and a Spirit of the Labyrinth. over the first three turns. I dredged two Narcomoebas and therapied away another Batterskull. Then, he played Relic of Progenitus, but tapped out to play a Mirran Crusader. What the hell. I made ten zombies the next turn and he scooped.
Earned enough to play the next round of games for free. Take these items away from this post:
- Every opponent except the Storm opponent put me on the draw after losing their first game of the match. This may be because one opponent said they face dredge 1/20 matches.
- In my tests, this deck excels against Grixis Delver, which I understand is popular in MTGO. Although I lost today's match, I think it can do well if you know what you're doing. Lot of mistakes today.
- Total non-Deathrite hate: 1 Surgical, 1 Cage, 1 Relic. I won two of those three games where they showed up.
Go play this deck if you're broke or like to dredge.
The "villain" bit made me lol.
I'm pretty sure that when piloting this deck you are considered to be the villain, James Bond-style.
Lol, this is true. I'm stuck on that from my poker-playing days. All of my opponents seemed to cease their chat when I discarded my first card in game 1's.
Nice stuff.
With Grixis Delver so popular, I really love Chancellor in the main. With Chancellor, Wraith and Phantas you're highly unlikely to have to worry about DRS and can turbo through it. I like what you've done with your threat package, not even worrying about Spy - Flayer or GGT alone is often enough, I agree, and a DR target to flip the library isn't often necessary.
I played this last week at my LGS, I went 3-0, it was great!
I played Spy and Unmask in the main, with 15 dredgers. Chancellors, Faeries Macabres, Sickening Shoals and Contagions in the board.
Round 1 I beat Burn. 2-1 I lost game 2 to Surgical, but I was too slow anyways. Game 3 I was at 1 and he had a suspended rift bolt when I combo'd.
Round 2 I beat Lands. 2-1. Game 2 I lost steam to a Bog and then had no out to Chasm. I swapped in my Faeries and didn't need them game 3.
Round 3 I beat UB Reanimator 2-0. Game 1 even Griselbrand could not race my board. Game 2 Faerie Macabre blew out his Elesh Norn.
Just thought I'd share. I will always love this deck, and the meta seems ok for it right now. (Seems amazing for it at my LGS!)
I agree. Added since then:
+4 Chancellor of the Annex
-2 Call to the Netherworld
-2 Contagion
-1 Dread Return (had 61 cards)
An online sideboard that has worked well:
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Dread Return
This week in legacy league, I've done several 4-1's. I've also done a few 0-5's. Here are some thoughts from this experience:
--Grixis Delver is the most popular, so I attempt to gear spots to beat it. Contagion makes a difference, but on less occasions than expected. Generally it advances me a third of the time I cast it, at most. The only hate from them we can't beat is Grafdigger's Cage, which is often a 1-of and never more than a 2-of. Surgical Extraction is the main threat, and I can work around it.
--As a corollary, this seems to be the best form of Dredge to play against Delver. I've tried all of the different dredge forms against it and I conclude their permission is overwhelming to us. The best way to shut it off, especially against Young Pyromancer, is to simply play no spells. If you choose Dredge, this version is probably the strongest against that.
--Versus real-world experience, I've not found that I miss Force of Will/Disrupting Shoal a great amount. In 65 matches this week with Manaless, I've not seen Rest in Peace one tie, and seen Grafdigger's Cage in 4-6 games (one of those games vs. Sneak and Show I won). I have seen Leyline of the Void in more games than that, and there's obviously nothing to do against that. I've seen Containment Priest more and that's easily dealt with. Against Storm and Reanimator, the Faerie Macabre have been much better, to the point where I find Reanimator a favorable matchup.
--I want to continue playing Call to the Netherworld to counteract Surgical Extraction, but this has turned out to be too situational, reactionary, and insufficient. Besides that, Surgical is never game-ending, even in multiples.
--No one tests against or expects dredge. I kept a count of the 65 matches I played to this point, and in 52 times that the post-side opponent had the choice, they chose to play first. They also do things like play Surgical on Grave-Trolls, play Reanimate on Phantasmagorian or Chancellor of the Annex, or fail to Therapy away a relevant Faerie Macabre. So you can take advantage of this.
on call to the netherworld isn't noxious revival better against surgical extraction it seems less narrow and can re-buy narcos and doesn't require a discard outlet to function. I have also been playing FOWless online as of late and it seems fine right now. I agree that Faerie is strong in the meta right now. I do find most of my wins (paper/online) come from the 'casual' beat down plan as it snowballs out of control. I do feel we could trim or cut the combo pieces and play with other things because the core is so strong. Here's to testing and dredging.
The flipside is that Call can turn into Time Walk when returning a Street Wraith.
This is all true. Arguments for Noxious Revival:
--Saves other stuff like Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapy
--Re-stocks Narcomoeba
--Functions similar, though not a replacement for, Faerie Macabre in some matchups, notably Reanimator
Against:
--Slows your dredging by a turn if played turn 1 or 2 while you restock your hand
--Does not speed you up against stuff like Deathrite Shaman
--Cannot be pitched to Contagion
--Fully reactionary; value this at your own level
But I find that "reactionary" also applies to Contagion in a majority of situations. That card seems to be the 60th card in the deck in many of my forms. Other stuff like Vengeful Pharaoh, Faerie Macabre, Dread Return, and Sickening Shoal are about as good and perhaps a little less. So there it is.
When Pharaoh is good, it usually is very good. Opponents usually hate it badly enough to want to get rid of that instead of something that actually matters to you.
Still just a SB card though.
After a lot of 4-1's and 0-5's, I finally did a 5-0 on MTGO legacy leagues. Joined another Manaless player playing with Balustrade Spy earlier this week. The list I've come to is:
16 dredgers
4 of Shadow, Ichorid, Amalgam, Narcomoeba
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Therapy
4 Bridge
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Contagion
Sideboard:
3 Contagion
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Dread Return
3 Disrupting Shoal (still can't buy FOW, too bad)
The matchups were:
Grixis Delver: 2-1
BR Reanimator: 2-0
Death Tax: 2-1
URB Tezzerator: 2-1
Shardless BUG: 2-1
Some observations based on my previous posts:
--Chancellor of the Annex over-performs, consistently. I don't know why I didn't play it maindeck before. Since the deck usually loses to resolved Cage and RIP, I never find myself siding it out. It slows the opposite side a turn which has proven to be sufficient to eke out a board.
--The shift from RIP to Containment Priest in white is a good thing for us. I side in Contagion against Death Tax anyway, and other white aggro usually plays Deathrite Shaman, so it's most often a live card.
--The sideboard obviously would rather have FOW against Cage than Shoal, but Cage has landed so rarely that I haven't been concerned by it yet. Shoal did win once by countering a Transmute Artifact in the Tezz matchup.
--The Contagion may be exchanged for Dread Return at your leisure; I often wanted to play Dread Return no matter what. This has already been beaten to death but find a spot for it.
--I find myself playing zero spells in a non-zero amount of games. This is usually a great thing against permission-based tempo, which is all of Delver.
The short, stupid story is that this is a brag post. Have fun at GP Vegas.
Everyone seems to be on lists trimming Dread Return and running no deck-flipper. I like this, since reviving GGT, Chancellor or even Flayer on his own has usually felt like enough.
Of course, we drop some combo speed, but it gives us a bit more feasible room for:
Non-Creature Spells: (19)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
Creatures: (41)
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
Sideboard: (15)
1 Ashen Rider
2 Contagion
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
I'm maining FoW again. The Blue count is pretty scarce and hits the bare minimum (16), and this is still pretty untested. But it feels like pre-board and post-board (now with Leylines in the SB that I've been yearning for sometime) there is a strong chance against combo like ANT which I felt we had a pretty mediocre matchup against. And the card can always at least have some form of utility. I like the grindy less all-in comboing direction everyone is heading. Manaless has always felt like the best beatdown deck of the Dredge variants and I think we should capitalise on that.
Anyway, will be testing this moving forward!
If you're omitting deck flippers you could also go for the following list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Phantasmagorian
All meat, just Flayer for some combo-esque finish. W/ all those creatures recurring, your opponent should be dead in no-time.
I have a problem with this and I'm interested to hear results that rebut my problem. I have never, ever wanted less than 16 dredgers in this deck even after sideboarding. Are you using your Probe/Wraith package in situations where you don't open with a dredger so that you can dig for one? That would seem to mean one less card for Force as well as one less accelerator to get you to the win. While I realize that my sideboarding tactics above don't support this position, this is what I want the vast majority of the time.
The numbers on opening with at least one dredger in your opening eight, playing:
14 dredgers: 89.80%
16 dredgers: 93.07%
An interesting statistic yet un-proposed may be tallying the games you have no dredgers in your opening and how often you manage to win those games. In my experience, the percentage is low. Coupled with those games where you drop to a hate card you can't get around, the tolerance would seem to wear quite thin.
Further: if the combo matchup feels that poor, perhaps we play four Leyline of Sanctity and make sure we see one in our opener. The difference there is 31% in our opening seven with three versus 39% with four. If the former tolerance is too low, then the latter is certainly too low.
No, you're on the right track, I've been arguing for MD Chancellor of the Annex and 16 Dredgers for years: the fact of the matter is Deathrite Shaman is your primary concern and the biggest difference between 12 to 16 Dredgers is how quickly you recover from Surgical Extraction on your first Dredger. Leyline of Sanctity is a legitimate choice, especially when a lot of people are going to remove Echoing Truth for Abrase in Storm.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote