Not really, when Wave can't gain age counters it wraths all tokens (and cmc 0's) each of its controller's turns.Originally Posted by Undomian
Admittedly this card is pretty bad with Wave of Terror
That's an awful lot of work for Illness in the Ranks.
I feel like this new enchantment is going to play best with cards that are already playable or borderline playable.
1. Ancestral Knowledge
I run this card casually right now in several shells. This card is absurdly powerful, but no one uses it because it's a slow tutor, can't reliably get 1-ofs, and is much more mana intensive than other tutors. If you don't have to pay the upkeep, however, then this is just straight up gas. If you have a way to bounce or blink it, now you're really cooking with gas.
2. Glacial Chasm
This card already sees play, and it can work better now.
3. Geralf's Messenger (and other Undying creatures)
This now forms a win condition with Solemnity and a sac outlet. Previously, these kind of shenanigans required persist creatures. I legitimately forsee a new Collected Company deck in Modern running Undying cards instead of Persist cards, with this a win condition. Such a deck can be very aggressive, as the Undying creatures are better than the Persist ones generally, with a combo backup. Imagine Wolf into Geist into Solemnity into Company. That's an opening with many dangerous outcomes for the opponent.
4. Sustaining Spirit / Delaying Shield / Force Bubble
These are nowhere near good enough for eternal (no one plays Ali from Cario effects) but I can see these cards all improving in EDH.
The rest of the combos are probably too cute or involve cards that are just too bad on their own.
Last edited by Jander78; 06-20-2017 at 08:02 PM.
You are referring to a triggered ability (persist), and I always thought entering the battlefield in a certain condition (as a replacement effect) was treated differently.
Take for example the interaction between Blood Moon and Lands entering the battlefield in a certain condition.
The rulings on Blood Moon state:
3/14/2017 : If a nonbasic land has an ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped, that ability will still function. For example, if Blood Crypt is entering the battlefield, its controller may pay 2 life to have it enter untapped. Regardless of this choice, it will be only a Mountain and not a Swamp. The same is also true of any other abilities that modify how a land enters the battlefield or apply “as” a land enters the battlefield, such as the first ability of Cavern of Souls.
So Dark Depths enters play as a mountain with 10 ice counters on it, under a Blood Moon.
I don't see how Solemnity is different from Blood Moon in affecting Dark Depths.
I am not posting this to argue, I am confused by this and would like someone to point me out where my thinking would be wrong.
So, Turn 1 Solemnity off say, an Ancient Tomb and a Mox Diamond, Turn 2 Concordant Crossroads type effect and play Dark Depths - win? Maybe throw in the usual Stompy Package and some Eldrazi, that's a deck, right?
Dark Depths enters the battlefield with the counters. At no time are you putting counters on it. Strictly speaking, I do not think it works that way, Sean.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Well, that's disappointing.
No, no, you certainly can use a 3-cc Enchantment to make your Marit Lage if you want. But... why would you ever do this when Thespian's Stage exists?
I believe it does. Look at the rulings on cards like Flourishing Defenses, which triggers when a counter is "placed." They still trigger even when something enters the battlefield with counters, meaning that entering with a counter is "placing" a counter.
http://www.mtgassist.com/cards/Shado...enses/rulings/
See also: Hardened Scales.
http://www.mtgassist.com/cards/Khans...cales/rulings/
And here's discussions about how Merlia does indeed prevent creatures from entering the battlefield with counters:
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/co...ty_and_melira/
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/m...with-creatures
Yeah, we could call it: "Worse Lands!"
I think you're likely to see a more normal deck. Solemnity is white, so you only need to run a single copy thanks to Enlightened Tutor (probably a 2x on the tutor). Next most efficient tutor would be Crop Rotation. From that pretty light demand on deck slots, there's no reason you couldn't go blue or devolve into some NicFit discard type approach. I think you'd be hard-pressed to make any case for Solemnity in a lands-heavy approach, since Loam can target Stage. Concordant Crossroads would just be another do-nothing-by-itself enchantment in a shell without card selection or hand correction as you have described it.
@MaximumC sure it's a lot of work, but it's also modal whereas Illness in the Ranks will only ever do one thing. Now sure, there is perhaps a delay but you get to set and freeze Wave of Terror at whatever point you want. It also does everything that it should do in the absence of Solemnity (except ever hit cmc 0 unaided).
Persist is a triggered ability, but coming into play with the -1/-1 counter is not. It enters play with the counter. That counter is "placed" for all game intentions, as per rule 121.6:
Why does Dark Depths enter with counters under a Blood Moon? This has nothing to do with Solemnity, but the answers is that basically Dark Depths does not care that it will be a mountain when it enters play, it specifies it must have counters placed on it as it enters. The point at which Blood Moon removes it's abilities is after it is already in play and once it is in play, it already has the counters. The same reason why a shock land would still enter tapped if it is under Blood Moon and you don't pay the life.121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object that’s given counters as it enters the battlefield.
The flat answer is that Dark Depths asks to have counters placed on it, as per 121.6, Solemnity says no and so the answer is no.
EDIT: Also note that neither Solemnity nor Blood Moon are actually replacement effects, one is a static effect and the other is a type change effect.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Since Doubling Season doubles counters on everything, including planeswalkers, Solemnity should work the same, aka producing a Marit Lage token with DD.
For this very reason, PWs are excluded from the card, since it would kill Planeswalkers who enter the battlefield right of the bat with 0 loyality counters.
Correctamundo, but it sure would have been funny as the ultimate PW hate ever, most probably.
But do note, as I did above, that Solemnity is not a replacement effect, while Doubling Season is.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
This isn't correct. It will keep Dark Depths from entering with any counters. Relevant rulings are how Melira interacts with creatures that enter with -1/-1 counters.
Relevant MELIRA WORDING: Creatures you control can't have -1/-1 counters placed on them.
Etched Monstrosity: Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield with five -1/-1 counters on it.
If Melira is in play, Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield as a 10/10.
Relevant SOLEMNITY WORDING: Counters can't be put on artifacts, creatures, enchantments or lands.
Dark Depths: Dark Depths comes into play with ten ice counters on it.
If Solemnity is in play, Dark Depths enters the battlefield with no Ice counters.
Wording does not work for me. Seems counter-intuitive (since there is no action to put counters on), but who am I to argue? Thanks for the clarification, all.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
It's the same way Melira works with the -1/-1 counters cards from Amonkhet. That's why it's so good.
EDIT: Finn, placed was changed to 'put' in the last major Oracle update, I believe.
Wow, what a missed opportunity. That would have been a great use of this card. I bet what happened is that originally it stopped all counters, and then they realized that Little Johnny would have a Bad Day during draft when he accidentally killed his own Walker. They dislike "un-intuitive" results like this nowadays.
...which is exactly why I am worried about more testing before cards go to print :(
I think a card which read "Planeswalkers cannot be played" in addition to the other effects on this card would have been overkill.
I see what you did there...
Thanks for the answer H.
But if BloodMoon removes Depths abilities after it is in play (and already has the counters), isn't it logical this is similar for Solemnity as well? That the effect of Solemnity 'comes too late', to deny the counters being put on Dark Depths?
Dark Depths enters the battlefield as a nonbasic mountain with 10 ice counters on it under a Blood Moon. If you have to reach over to put counters on something, Solemnity sees it regardless of whether or not it came from a trigger or "as it enters."
Don't bother, Ingo. While I completely agree with the sentiment of your argument, I looked into it just now. The rules people have determined that "put on" includes "enters the battlefield with" no matter how odd it seems. Here, look at this from Vizier of Remedies.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
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