Sorry I meant By Force.Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Abrade is a good card but I am not certain it is the right choice, in most situations Echoing Truth is enough and blue mana is more reliable than red, I only use Disfigure because of it's 1 black mana.
Still, that is a really flexible card for SBs.
The question is permanent removal vs versatility. Yes, Echoing Truth can catch anything, but there are times where bounce isn't quite good enough. Additionally, what Legacy cards that aren't creatures or artifacts am I really worried about? Leyline I guess?
I don't think 1 red is that much harder to scavenge up than 1 blue in the current lists. 2 Sea, one volc, one badlands and 1 swamp being the standard manabase, the only thing making R slightly more difficult is the fact you generally fetch a blue source T1 for Ponder/Brainstorm. If you had Abrade, and felt like you needed it you could always fetch the volc so I feel like this is almost as moot as Echoing Truth's increased versatility. A VS in the board, or, if you really wanted, a pair of Truths instead of VS and something else would get the job done if you ran into leyline, but I feel like that's worrying a bit excessively about leyline, the usage of which in T1 decks has gone down substantially.
*Bryant is 8-1 heading into day 2 of vegas, only loss to Sneak/Show.* Keep killing 'em man! You got this!
Last edited by Ebonclaw; 06-16-2017 at 12:50 PM.
The mana is never a moot point, if you play enough games vs D&T or Eldrazi then you'll know how important it is to be able to play around Wasteland, why do you think we had bounce and creature removal in our SBs in addition to Abrupt Decay? It's because the color requirements were that problematic for Abrupt Decay vs Wasteland. I'm not saying Abrade's mana is anywhere near as problematic as Abrupt Decay's is, but it's there and it's going to matter over 1U or B.
It's a 100% playable card tho', I'm just not sure if I want to replace all of my bounce and removal for it.
Edit: Also not every one plays Badlands over a 2nd Volcanic Island, that card begs for mulligan losses IMO.
@Related to Abrad:
Just a question, if there would exist a card like duress but it also hits creatures in white, did you play that card adjusting the manabase? I will answer yes, I imagine your answer is yes also. and thats the way I think about Abrade, yes you can just hit creature or artifact and in conjuntion with E.T. you have all angles covered. maybe I just badly got used to the versatility of A.D. I took it out to test now miracles had gone, but there is a fact and is that A.D. is likely the most versatile card a TES player can have in his/her side and for the time beeing I would not leave home withouth at least 2 copies. but well I just had a different m.b. I dont think either Abrade could substitute E.T. as bouncing 2 CoV EoT has happened to me quite often.
On the other hand I do think ANT and Fetch Manabase TES can gain advantage if this card.
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Well yes, in the Eldrazi and D&T situations it is more relevant, but I don't think the impact is enough to make me not want to play Abrade over Echoing Truth- I'm hoping D&T continues its downward trend. I'm eager to try out 2-3 Abrades.
Bryant's at 9-2 on day 2 of the GP.
The EPIC Storm
@mtgtheepicstorm
9-2 over Eldrazi.
11:54 AM - 16 Jun 2017
https://twitter.com/mtgtheepicstorm/...88813968097280
He's currently in 71st out of 2644 total entries. Just 70 more spots to climb!
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...ngs-2017-06-16
Up to 42nd.
Finished 11-4 losing my last round to RB reanimator to not cash the event. My only losses on the event were to other unfair decks (Sneak Show, 2 BR, and ANT).
I didn't have a single easy match-up throughout the event. Details to come on my event next week when I'm home.
Report from GP: Las Vegas!
http://www.theepicstorm.com/gp-las-v...17-80th-place/
Excellent report. The detail and analysis just gets better with each new article, great job.
Getting shafted by the airline is no fun at all.
Did Royce play ANT? How did he do?
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He did, he didn't day 2.
Are the 2 Defense Matrix really better than a Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy in the SB? The discard seems more applicable in the matchups vs other unfair decks, you give your Burning Wish more utility, they imprint on Chrome Mox and reduce the damage by 1 for Ad Nauseam flips etc.
What do you think of Abrase?
More discard is simply just that, it doesn't provide an unknown edge against cards like Flusterstorm, Invasive Surgery, Stifle or Brainstorm. Have you ever played a game with Defense Grid in play? Things swing heavily into your favor. It's very tough to hold open two pieces of interaction.
I don't believe we should define cards by their ability to be imprinted on Chrome Mox... or very small percentage points on Ad Nauseam.
Every list that I have tested that has had Defense Grid in it has out-performed the ones that don't (I have data to back this up). I'm looking at hard results and truly believe Defense Grid is worthwhile, if I didn't I wouldn't have brought it with me.
As far as "discard is better in unfair matches" goes, did you look at my unfair matches? Turn 1's with Chancellors to protect them, Leyline of Sanctity, my opponent randomly mulliganing into a 1-2 of (Flusterstorm) in their sideboard in a combo mirror. Even if I had a discard spell there, I still would've gone for the turn 1 kill.
Also, I address the issue with sideboarding things in combo mirrors in my post-Sensei's Diving Top article that I referenced. There just aren't slots you want to take out.
As far as Abrase goes, I'm not going to take a stance on it as I'm unsure how it fits into sideboarding plans and into the sideboard itself.
If you're playing Telemin's Performance for Storm then I don't see why you wouldn't play more discard for it either, yeah Leyline of Sanctity and Chacellor of the Annex happen but not everyone SBs Leyline of Sanctity and they don't always open with Chancellor of the Annex - I think Show&Tell and B/r Reanimator are calling for Void Snare and Bribery, and more discard and speed will carry your Storm match ups? Usually I board out ETW and a Ponder for discard vs ANT, but that's just me.
I understand where you're comming from, but I can't think of too many games where Defense Matrix would've carried the game vs Miracles that discard wouldn't have. Then again I'm still on the 8/b Fetch Lands, 2 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island and 1 Swamp mana base, where I just find being able to sit on a Swamp, Fetch Lands and discard into my winning turn more consistent. Do you get more Miracles decks than Blade or UBG maybe?
Telemin Performance isn't just for storm. Honestly, I'm beginning to question if you read either of the articles or just skimmed the deck list.
With TES you have limited sideboard slots, I don't believe you can reasonably run things like Void Snare, Bribery, additional discard spells and make it all fit while maintaining usefulness in other areas. What you've suggested to me, I find very narrow and only playable in heavy Show and Tell metagames. I play a lot online, 1-2 local events a week, and large events - I build my lists for open metagames and I want the most out of my sideboard cards. Because of this, it's not likely for me to play dedicated Leyline of Sanctity hate like Void Snare.
It's Defense Grid. Defense Matrix is not a Magic card.
Defense Grid isn't just for Miracles. Also, if you can't understand why it would be good, perhaps you should try it before being dismissive. Stopping multiple cards from interacting or completely locking your opponent out of the game is very strong.
Also, the dual basic list has a much more consistent mana base against any deck trying to attack your mana as you can see in my report. Sitting on basics and fetches is a huge deal.
Sorry, I play a lot of Overwatch.
I read it from beginning to end, what else is Defense Grid for if not Miracles? Any other blue deck is going to have Vendillion Clique, Meddling Mage and friends or discard to deal with - and it's not as if Miracles can't have Vendillion Clique and Meddling Mage and friends itself. You say you build your list for open metagames, but 2 Defense Grid and 2 Rending Volley seem like you've tuned towards Miracles more than any other blue deck. I'm not dismissing Defense Grid, I'm just pointing out it seems more linear than discard and I'm not sure the card being more powerful when resolved offsets being more difficult to resolve and less versatile vs multiple angles of attack (I'm playing Rending Volley right now, so it's not like I dismiss every thing you say).
I don't think Void Snare is limited to being used vs Leyline of Sanctity, it's a better card to side in vs D&T than Grape Shot is fwiw. Regarding Telemin's Performance, I understand it's for the Storm mirror and that's the reason I suggested it over Bribery originally. The thing is Telemin's Performance is so much worse than Bribery vs B/r Reanimator that I think we're kidding ourselves when we say Telemin's Performance is for any deck other than Storm, and we're much more likely to face Griselbrand decks than other Storm decks. Either card is really narrow, but Telemin's Performance throws games vs a SBed Xantid Swarm or a Chancellor/Emakrul pull where Bribery just consistently does it's job vs a relative pillar of the format that we also happen to have a terrible match up against. We're already the better Storm deck and we get a vritual bye vs Lands, so metagaming vs Griselbrand and Leyline of Sanctity doesn't seem that unreasonable considering Deathrite Shaman hasn't overtaken the format and Storm hasn't had its renaisance like we hoped.
I plan on testing the Island again, but from having tested Island in the past I find having a land that doesn't produce combo mana, requires you to play Badlands and reduces the total number of /b fetchlands has its own consistency issues on the mana base. Wasteland has always been a thing, even with old Miracles gone have the number of Wastelands really gone up that much?
I'm not trying to pass judgement here, we've argued over 7 vs 6 discard, 3/3 vs 2/4 of Duress/Cabal Therapy, 3 vs 2 Chrome Mox, Volcanic Island vs Badlands, MD or no MD Empty the Warrens etc. before and around and around we go. I'm just trying to understand why choices we decided against before like Defense Grid and Island are in vogue and how your experience differs from mine. I think having small preferences like boarding out a kill condition for more disruption in the Storm mirror or not gambling on Telemin's Performance over Bribery vs Griselbrand decks is perfectly fine, we don't all have to agree.
I bring in Defense Grid across a range of blue decks. Show and Tell, Miracles, Delver Variants, BUG Leovold (You can safely Tendrils of Agony them) and Stoneblade decks. Rending Volley as stated in my articles outside of the Miracles matchup has applications against Death & Taxes as well as Leovold decks (Not that I side in all 4 as answers, but depending on the amount of artifact hate I do swap them) and the occasional Stoneblade deck. I like and value versatility.
Strongly disagree on Grapeshot. Not to mention that Grapeshot provides outs or answers to a lot of things that something like Void Snare doesn't.
I don't think you have a whole lot of experience playing Telemin Performance. It's obviously best in game 1 against Storm and Lands, but remains strong post-board against Reanimator and Sneak Show. I'm fine with hitting the other creatures you mentioned, they're not Griselbrand, but they'll likely get the job done in most scenarios.
I've had instances where I was able to win with a Telemin Performance against Reanimator because I had enough mana to cast it through Chancellor and hit Griselbrand. Where a typical sideboard card wouldn't have been enough.
Have you played a whole lot versus lands? If so, you'd know that Burning Wish isn't good in that matchup at all. It gets Empty the Warrens, Past in Flames or Dark Petition. All of which are shut down by Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog. Telemin Performance is terrific here.
I'm likely not going to play Telemin Performance for ever, but for the time being - I think it's worthwhile.
I happen to like playing Badlands and have for some time. It's much better than drawing a pair of Volcanic Island.
Well, Grixis Delver is roughly 14% of the metagame and the most represented deck from GP: Vegas. You tell me.
If you board out kill conditions in the mirror you risk losing to Surgical Extraction which is extremely popular - it's just not worth it. The issue that I have with this conversation is that I feel I've discussed a good portion of this in my articles.
I'm aware we don't all have to agree, I'm not forcing anyone to play my deck list. But don't expect me to hurry to put a Void Snare in my sideboard either.
All I'm interested in are results, I don't really care about personal preferences. I want wins, if that means running Defense Grid, it's what I'm going to do - this is the purpose of my spreadsheet. I try lots of things because I want to find the best deck list and having hard data to help make decisions removes bias.
I understand you can SB in Defense Grid and Rending Volley vs decks that aren't Miracles, I just think Defense Grid and Rending Volley are going to be best vs Miracles and worse vs decks that aren't Miracles than discard and black creature removal (altho' I'm keeping an open mind on Rending Volley)
What is Grape Shot doing vs D&T that Void Snare isn't, other than killing the creature? I admit I cut Grape Shot for more cost efficient removal a lot and don't play with a MD kill condition as much, so honestly I don't have the same experience with it.
Ok, you can't claim I didn't read your articles and then say I don't have a lot of experience playing Telemin's Performance, because I can just as easily claim you haven't read your thread and you don't have a lot of experience playing Telemin's Performance. I was the one who suggested Telemin's Performance and argued for it over Bribery here, I get it. My issue is that I just haven't seen the Storm and Lands match ups as much as the Show&Tell and Reanimator match ups, so I question whether or not the variance vs the latter is worth it because the former are already winnable and Deathrite Shaman didn't chase out Reanimator like I had hoped.
If you have a MD kill condition already and can SB in a Tendrils of Agony, then why would they SB in Surgical Extraction at all? Is this a you have to prepare for your opponents to be idiots kind of a thing, because I would think other Storm players know better?
My problem with Badlands is that it doesn't cast cantrips, the card has cost me games and never won me games I couldn't have won otherwise. I don't think the odds of drawing both Volcanics over a Volcanic and a Badlands is worth discussing, they're lower than drawing 2xChrome Mox and no where near the mulligan. If that manabase holds up over 15 rounds then so be it, but I don't think BUR is any worse now than BUG was as far as Wasteland is concerned so I'm left wondering whether or not you just end up trading one inconsisteny for another and which is more relevant.
Anyway, I'll give the manabase a shot.
Sure, but all cards vary in specific matchups. Your statement is just super general.
My statement was about Grapeshot in general and not just Death & Taxes. But, Void Snare just sucks at sorcery speed - it's an investment that can just be recast easily and requires a large upfront cost. Needing the mana to both answer the permanent and then to win. I'd rather just kill the creature for an extra mana and have the option of not needing anything upfront.
I think you missed my point earlier. I don't care about who's ideas are who's - I really don't. That said, I've owned a JPN Foil Telemin Performance for 7+ years, I don't think it's breaking ground. Tommy Kolowith Top 8'd GP: Chicago with it in his deck in 2010.
If you play online, you will see all of those decks frequently.
People never sideboard in Surgical against you? Must be nice. Happens to me all the time, especially in the mirror.
I sideboard out Ponders a decent amount of time, meaning that Badlands is better in a lot of post-board games. My manabase was great over the event and has been in literally 99 matches with the deck (according to my spreadsheet).
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