[Primer] R/G Lands

[Sparkii]

The matchup is bad but winnable. I beat Sneak at vegas in round 8, thankfully his cantrips didn't agree with him and I had outs to blood moon both times.

[kravkenov]

I wonder if Mirage Mirror might help this MU. We can play it pro-actively (or from they Show and Tell) and copy whatever creature are cheated into play. The only problematic situation would be a Show and Tell into Omniscience into Emrakul because of the additional turn (and Anhilator). What do you think about Mirror ?!

[Lormador]

I'll certainly test out a couple of Mirrors in the arsenal, it looks like it should shore up a few points in this atrocious MU without being a liability in others. I'm on blue to boot, so Ruins will be of some use. Surely Mirror will help in the mirror if we've reached Stage 2 of the matchup, in which one gets to have mana due to one not being too far behind in the Exploration+Loam+GQ race.

I can see Mirror helping in the mirror, if I can get to 4 mana, because I can copy an Exploration with it and still cast Loam. The side with more Explorations wins because it runs the other side out of lands. The Bojuka Bog subgame can interrupt things, to be sure, but I contend that it's the Exploration race that is the centerpiece of the matchup if it is properly played out. I think the blue variant is at an advantage in the mirror because it plays fewer copies of Dark Depths (which is a liability half the time), because it has an extra win condition in the form of Mox Diamond mill, and because Engineered Explosives can flip (or equalize) the Exploration race and kill Mox Diamonds. Taking out those Diamonds is the last nail in the coffin for an opposing deck that's losing on land drops. It cuts them off from casting Life from the Loam any more.

If one is behind by a ton EE isn't going to help, and if the board is at parity it isn't going to help either, but it sure is sweet for coming back from just a little behind (nuking the other side's 1 or 2 Explorations over my 0 or 1) or utterly eliminating the other deck's chances to get back into the game when ahead.

I didn't sit down to compose an Ode to Engineered Explosives, but that's what happened. Oops. Though I suppose it's the deck space I give to this stuff (which could me more copies of Dark Depths and/or a MD Karakas) that makes my Sneaky Show matchup a bit off.

One question Sparkii, would you keep in EE for the Sneaky Show matchup? I kind of like having it around for Blood Moons, being loathe to cast a Krosan Grip on anything that doesn't say Sneak Attack on it.

[Sparkii]

I'll certainly test out a couple of Mirrors in the arsenal, it looks like it should shore up a few points in this atrocious MU without being a liability in others. I'm on blue to boot, so Ruins will be of some use. Surely Mirror will help in the mirror if we've reached Stage 2 of the matchup, in which one gets to have mana due to one not being too far behind in the Exploration+Loam+GQ race.

I can see Mirror helping in the mirror, if I can get to 4 mana, because I can copy an Exploration with it and still cast Loam. The side with more Explorations wins because it runs the other side out of lands. The Bojuka Bog subgame can interrupt things, to be sure, but I contend that it's the Exploration race that is the centerpiece of the matchup if it is properly played out. I think the blue variant is at an advantage in the mirror because it plays fewer copies of Dark Depths (which is a liability half the time), because it has an extra win condition in the form of Mox Diamond mill, and because Engineered Explosives can flip (or equalize) the Exploration race and kill Mox Diamonds. Taking out those Diamonds is the last nail in the coffin for an opposing deck that's losing on land drops. It cuts them off from casting Life from the Loam any more.

If one is behind by a ton EE isn't going to help, and if the board is at parity it isn't going to help either, but it sure is sweet for coming back from just a little behind (nuking the other side's 1 or 2 Explorations over my 0 or 1) or utterly eliminating the other deck's chances to get back into the game when ahead.

I didn't sit down to compose an Ode to Engineered Explosives, but that's what happened. Oops. Though I suppose it's the deck space I give to this stuff (which could me more copies of Dark Depths and/or a MD Karakas) that makes my Sneaky Show matchup a bit off.

One question Sparkii, would you keep in EE for the Sneaky Show matchup? I kind of like having it around for Blood Moons, being loathe to cast a Krosan Grip on anything that doesn't say Sneak Attack on it.

I think I keep one in. I've also EE'ed some petals as they try to play their way through tax artifacts.

[GoblinZ]

I will test some Japanese technology against sneakshow, Song of the Dryads, which I think is a more flexible card, great when they play show and tell blindly, and also an answer to a tappout sneakattack or bloodmoon if I don't draw a Krosan Grip.

[Sparkii]

I will test some Japanese technology against sneakshow, Song of the Dryads, which I think is a more flexible card, great when they play show and tell blindly, and also an answer to a tappout sneakattack or bloodmoon if I don't draw a Krosan Grip.

Funny enough, you can copy whatever you Song with thespian's stage. I have a friend who put Song in off Show and Tell and got emrakul, then copied it and won.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Well that's kind of cool. I had no idea it worked like that.

[Sparkii]

Well that's kind of cool. I had no idea it worked like that.

It also still retains the "(2) Copy Target Land" Ability which is pretty silly.

[GoblinZ]

Funny enough, you can copy whatever you Song with thespian's stage. I have a friend who put Song in off Show and Tell and got emrakul, then copied it and won.

very interesting...but I just found this

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/m...vs-omniscience

I found it is not a suitable SB card against show and tell.

[Jsang]

In Red, there is a card available for SnT matchup, Frenzied Fugue.

[Lormador]

I just realized today that the implications of the Miracles ban are far reaching and should change my deck and sideboarding more than it has so far. For instance, why do I still have Molten Vortex main? The argument for that was based half on DnT's Sanctum Prelate and half on getting under Counterbalance. With the second half (actually far more than half) not an issue any longer, I'm guessing we're better served by Seismic Assault (if not just more Fires). My beloved Ancient Grudge may not be worth it anymore. Pithing Needles used to be all over the meta to hit Top and Jace, and we were just splash damage. There's far less reason for the average deck to sling Needles now, especially Delver decks. No need for that single Grudge hedging against their Needle and Winter Orb.

[inevitablepnut]

In Red, there is a card available for SnT matchup, Frenzied Fugue.

This runs into the same issue. You need a target for an aura and since they come into play at the same time you cannot target what they are bringing in with show and tell.

[kravkenov]

I just realized today that the implications of the Miracles ban are far reaching and should change my deck and sideboarding more than it has so far. For instance, why do I still have Molten Vortex main? The argument for that was based half on DnT's Sanctum Prelate and half on getting under Counterbalance. With the second half (actually far more than half) not an issue any longer, I'm guessing we're better served by Seismic Assault (if not just more Fires). My beloved Ancient Grudge may not be worth it anymore. Pithing Needles used to be all over the meta to hit Top and Jace, and we were just splash damage. There's far less reason for the average deck to sling Needles now, especially Delver decks. No need for that single Grudge hedging against their Needle and Winter Orb.

Molten Vortex is my favorite card among all the removals we have access to. It comes very quickly on the board and prevent BUG, Delver and DnT deck to lock you in a bad board situation. I'm maybe not neutral with my judgment as I run 4 copies main and really enjoy it. Seismic Assault is far better but far more costly to play. My own configuration is 4 Molten and 2 Barbarian. But in a shell with Punishing Fire, a single Seismic Assault might be more accurate now than a single Molten Vortex to complete the Punishing package. I still play Revoker/Needle to prevent Shaman, Aether Vial or even Ballista activations.

In my opinion, the fact that Counterbalance is now away dosent change that much my sideboard or mainboard options. It just make Life from the Loam and our tutors package more reliable. The only thing I think about is "does Krosan Grip still justify its slots over Naturalize ?".

[KIP_NZ]

This runs into the same issue. You need a target for an aura and since they come into play at the same time you cannot target what they are bringing in with show and tell.

Isn't a trigger in this case that happens after it enters because it starts with the words "when"? The rules suggest it is too "The triggered ability triggers both when Frenzied Fugue enters the battlefield and at the beginning of your upkeep. You don’t have to choose only one."

Edit: Thinking this through, it enters enchanting anything as it's an enchant permanent aura (a land?), the trigger goes on the stack, trigger resolves and you get their permanent but they've had priority so have cast cunning wish, drawn 14 cards with GB, activated the sneak attack for a fatty. This is only worth playing if they're 100% dropping Emrakul in off the SnT, pretty much all other targets don't lead to good game states for us?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

In my opinion, the fact that Counterbalance is now away dosent change that much my sideboard or mainboard options. It just make Life from the Loam and our tutors package more reliable. The only thing I think about is "does Krosan Grip still justify its slots over Naturalize ?".

Only being one mana more and difficult to interact certainly does, the cards you want Krosan Grip for a strong/must answer cards that need to be addressed (Blood Moon, Rest In Peace). If your naturalize is countered, odds are, you aren't drawing a second one.

[kravkenov]

If your naturalize is countered, odds are, you aren't drawing a second one.

Good point.

[inevitablepnut]

Only being one mana more and difficult to interact certainly does, the cards you want Krosan Grip for a strong/must answer cards that need to be addressed (Blood Moon, Rest In Peace). If your naturalize is countered, odds are, you aren't drawing a second one.

you can also tap grove to get pfire back while split second is on the stack and your opponent cant interact with the trigger.

[Dice_Box]

So many new names in here of late. Really this is awesome. Welcome everyone.

I love Grip. It would take a very special card to make me replace them. Also one that is cheap in foil since my grips are all foiled. Wait no, that has nothing to do with anything...

Edit: New land up, reprint of Holdout Settlement. Space is whittling down on our new Bike.

[J0n]

I have a friend who put Song in off Show and Tell and got emrakul, then copied it and won.

Actually, this does not work as Song of the Dryads is an aura and therefore must enter the battlefield attached to something. That cannot be something that is entering the battlefield at the same time as the aura. So your friend was lucky that no one called a judge ;-)

[UseLess]

Some other non-basic got spoiled as well (Survivors' Encampment), so there's at most 4 slots left, of which one seems to go to Crumbling Necropolis (Grixis land). So much for completing the cycle duals set :(.