[Primer] R/G Lands

[Sparkii]

Grip is spectacular. There's many instances split second comes in handy, down to being uncounterable, or taking care of annoying problems like vial. I've had so many DnT players think they're safe by holding vial on 3 and tapping out only to grip and punish them. I'd gladly pay the extra 1 mana over naturalize.

Hitting Aluren feels great too.

[procobrito]

Grip is so much better than Beast Within? Beast within can remove preatry much everything. The slip second worth that much?

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[inevitablepnut]

So many new names in here of late. Really this is awesome. Welcome everyone.

I love Grip. It would take a very special card to make me replace them. Also one that is cheap in foil since my grips are all foiled. Wait no, that has nothing to do with anything...

Edit: New land up, reprint of Holdout Settlement. Space is whittling down on our new Bike.

New names!! I'm one of them. I just started playing MTG again recently. I use to play a fastbond cow deck and my friend turned me onto lands! Learning the deck and having a blast jamming local event every week!

[Chatto]

Grip is so much better than Beast Within? Beast within can remove preatry much everything. The slip second worth that much?

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Yes. We die on the spot if we let hate resolve, or don't remove it. We don't have counters, split second is the next best thing.

Welcome all newcomers!

[Lormador]

Grip is so much better than Beast Within? Beast within can remove preatry much everything. The slip second worth that much?

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I think that's an interesting question, Krosan Grip is the traditional answer but it's thinkable (at least) that some other spell might offer a feature more valuable than split second: in this case, hitting other permanent types. Dogmatically holding to the traditional ways is unlikely to yield benefit.

Krosan Grip's role is to defeat hate cards. Countermagic is live against us. While I think it's safe to assume most removal will come out in G2+3, counters will if anything increase. As the hate against us is extremely effective (Blood Moon), defending it with all available resources is a viable plan. It's analogous to how a control deck might play 'Defend the Ethersworn Canonist' against Storm, using Force and Flusterstorm against Chain of Vapor. Our case is, if anything, more intense. There might even be a Stage copying a basic and copying a Depths on the field, awaiting the momentary respite from the Moon to produce a 20/20.

So while there probably is some value out there from being able to hit other things, the strength of K Grip to make that specific play is, to me, persuasive.

In other news, what happened to Walking Ballista? Has the unfortunately art-challenged card been retired already?

[Dice_Box]

New names!! I'm one of them. I just started playing MTG again recently. I use to play a fastbond cow deck and my friend turned me onto lands! Learning the deck and having a blast jamming local event every week!

Welcome, enjoy your very expensive pile of pain. I love it and Stax. Both are fun. But I'm a monster so I would say that...

I think that's an interesting question, Krosan Grip is the traditional answer but it's thinkable (at least) that some other spell might offer a feature more valuable than split second: in this case, hitting other permanent types. Dogmatically holding to the traditional ways is unlikely to yield benefit.

The issue for other cards is twofold:
First is that Split Second is just too fucking strong. Grip is top of the food chain for what it does and it would take a very special card to knock it off it's pedestal.

Secondly, Grip answers the issues we have. Beast within hits more targets sure, but what targets are we trying to deal with we otherwise can't? The two items that come to mind are Prelate and TNN, outside of that we can hate on just about everything. Direct damage kills most creatures and Walkers, Maze handles the ones we can't kill, Wasteland deals with mana and Tabernacle plays clean up if shit gets out of hand.

This leaves us with weaknesses to spells and to Artifacts and Enchantments. So Grip covers one wing of that while Sphere covers the other. I just don't know what I would seek to replace them with unless something is printed to sure up those weaknesses another way. Like a land you can sacrifice to kill a target. Even then I would need Moon hate.

[inevitablepnut]

Welcome, enjoy your very expensive pile of pain. I love it and Stax. Both are fun. But I'm a monster so I would say that...


The issue for other cards is twofold:
First is that Split Second is just too fucking strong. Grip is top of the food chain for what it does and it would take a very special card to knock it off it's pedestal.

Secondly, Grip answers the issues we have. Beast within hits more targets sure, but what targets are we trying to deal with we otherwise can't? The two items that come to mind are Prelate and TNN, outside of that we can hate on just about everything. Direct damage kills most creatures and Walkers, Maze handles the ones we can't kill, Wasteland deals with mana and Tabernacle plays clean up if shit gets out of hand.

This leaves us with weaknesses to spells and to Artifacts and Enchantments. So Grip covers one wing of that while Sphere covers the other. I just don't know what I would seek to replace them with unless something is printed to sure up those weaknesses another way. Like a land you can sacrifice to kill a target. Even then I would need Moon hate.

Funny you say that i'm swagging my deck out with foils and alters! XD

[Crimhead]

Grip is so much better than Beast Within? Beast within can remove preatry much everything. The slip second worth that much?

Like DB says, this hits a lot of targets that Grip misses, but none of them are big problems for us. Also if we cast BW we need to answer the token too. If you want more versatile removal splash black for AD.

[Richard Arschmann]

In Red, there is a card available for SnT matchup, Frenzied Fugue.

Wasn't Ensnaring Bridge used as an oldschool anti-Sneak & Show card? It will make them dig for an Echoing Truth unless they're Omni-Tell, and I can't help but feel like there is no way Lands can have a positive Omni-Tell matchup.

[Crimhead]

Wasn't Ensnaring Bridge used as an oldschool anti-Sneak & Show card? It will make them dig for an Echoing Truth unless they're Omni-Tell, and I can't help but feel like there is no way Lands can have a positive Omni-Tell matchup.

Lands can't have a +ve match against any S&T archetype I believe. Even Bridge isn't the best for us (vs Sneaky Show) because once it hits we have to GQ lock them or PF them to death before they can answer it.

Sorcerous Spyglass might be a good card in the match. Mirage Mirror might even prove to be worth running in the board. But we are never going to be favoured here.

Anybody have much experience with Warping Wail? The card looks good but doesn't get talked about much.

[Lormador]

I tried Wail in a couple of iterations of the deck, eventually passing the card over. The two useful modes of Wail put it in a strange position, it's an extra way to kill DRS (secondarily) and a counterspell (primarily) against Show and Tell and Infernal Tutor. I passed on it because I had more effective ways to kill DRS or play around it (obviating the secondary purpose) and because the mana cost of the counterspell mode is pretty restrictive when the rest of the game plan consists in Spheres and (for me) Ports.

I had to choose between Porting and holding up Wail enough times that I just didn't see the point any more, and at no time did I draw the Wail and not wish it was (another) Sphere. Jamming a bunch of Spheres and Porting them (then copying Port with Stage, etc) seems much better to me than trying to delay them with a counterspell and punch through with a 20/20 before they recover.

Wail has more legs in a GQ build, but that's just where I'd expect DRS hate to be most refined and efficient (since GQ relies to a greater extent on the GY).

[JPoJohnson]

Sorry that I'm going to ask lots of newbie questions, still extremely new to the deck.

I've seen quite a few 3 Depths lists and 4 Depths lists. Why would you cut this card and go down to 3?

[manadrain]

Hello new to this forum and deck and just have a question. Could someone more experienced explain the Glacial Chasm lock please?

[Chatto]

Sorry that I'm going to ask lots of newbie questions, still extremely new to the deck.

I've seen quite a few 3 Depths lists and 4 Depths lists. Why would you cut this card and go down to 3?

It's a matter of preference, really. Especially when you're more of a control-player, you could go down to three.

Hello new to this forum and deck and just have a question. Could someone more experienced explain the Glacial Chasm lock please?

Hi there, welcome! It's really quiet simple, but you'll need some lands (obviously a Chasm, but don't forget Thespian's Stage):

1. Play Chasm,
2. During upkeep, copy Chasm with Stage. Then sac the original Chasm. This way you'll have a closed Chasm-loop

Now you can do a couple of things:

3. Return your Chasm with Loam, or play a second Stage.
4. During your upkeep repeat (2), or
5. Sac your Stage (if you can't pay the upkeep. Otherwise wait), and play the original Chasm.

[Dice_Box]

The other option is, against a deck like Elves that don't have Land removal and must attack you set up the lock with an Exploration. That way you can always play two lands a turn and the lock becomes Land nutrual to keep up. Then when you find a Stage, you can copy the Chasm every second turn to keep the lock active and keep making land drops.

Also, this is another situation where cycling lands rock. Since you need to keep Loam active. Always play with a bicycle handy kids!

[Epeirogeny]

Sorry that I'm going to ask lots of newbie questions, still extremely new to the deck.

I've seen quite a few 3 Depths lists and 4 Depths lists. Why would you cut this card and go down to 3?

I personally like to play with 4 to increase the chances of "nut" hands and fast combo wins. But people will cut one out because the land does not do much by itself. It is only good with Thespian's Stage, and it can actually be a liability when you face an opponent who has Thespian's Stage.
Without Thespian's Stage, Dark Depths just helps continue the synergy of the deck with Mox Diamond, Molten Vortex, Tireless Tracker, etc. Which leads me to say that if you play with only 3 Dark Depths you should be subbing in another land, not a spell.

[Crimhead]

Hello new to this forum and deck and just have a question. Could someone more experienced explain the Glacial Chasm lock please?

In addition to what's been said, don't be affraid to occassionally pay the upkeep. If you have no Stage and no Exploration, you can stay land-neutral by paying 2 life every 2nd turn all the while dredging. Even with Exploration, you might pay the life because you want the mana for something besides Loaming that turn (such as killing a DRS), or just to get some land drops (Ports and Wastelands come to mind).

[non-inflammable]

There is always one mono-red deck and a u/r deck (price of progress) in the room at the LGS.
If I can't combo early, my only out is a chasm lock with thespian stages and an exploration, so...

I began to sideboard a zuran orb. The zuran orb allows you to sac the glacial chasm at upkeep while triggers are on the stack (gain 2 life).
The life gain means you can pay the upkeep triggers every other turn while looking for the card you need.

The orb is another piece that allows you to stabilize but it is not a regular R/G combo lands side board card.
You can gain so much life that you can make the token, drop the shield and send Momma Lage in for the win.

Incidentally, it can be sided in against a wasteland heavy deck if you have nothing else to board in and maybe a tendrils deck to mess up their math for storm.
One opponent just simply forgot I had the orb in play and dumped his whole hand and fireblasted me, sacc'ing all his lands...

[Crimhead]

I had to choose between Porting and holding up Wail enough times that I just didn't see the point any more, and at no time did I draw the Wail and not wish it was (another) Sphere. Jamming a bunch of Spheres and Porting them (then copying Port with Stage, etc) seems much better to me than trying to delay them with a counterspell and punch through with a 20/20 before they recover.

Wail has more legs in a GQ build, but that's just where I'd expect DRS hate to be most refined and efficient (since GQ relies to a greater extent on the GY).

Thanks for the reply.

I'm surprised that you never drew it without wishing it was a Sphere, because a Sphere means they need to draw one more mana source which is easier than replacing a Show & Tell. Of course Wail does nothing vs Sneak Attack, but Spheres are much better.

I can see being torn between Porting vs leaving mana open though. Ports are great with Spheres, so the more Ports you have ojt the more you'd prefer a Sphere to a Wail.

I guess if I do try Wail I will do it on a day that I feel like running more GQs instead of Ports.

[DoctorQuantum]

With all the lists running at least 2x Tireless Tracker in the board, I've been wanting to try it out, however I'm really not sure what you want them in against in Legacy. In Modern, I understand you want them against Midrange decks, but that archetype doesn't really exist in Legacy in the same way it does in Modern (mostly BUG with fliers rather than a more controlling BGx deck with more removal and less evasive creatures). So what exactly would I board these in against?