All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

I'd love to see Brainstorm banned. Ponder and Preordain and Probe would still provide a ton of search cantrip power, it would just all be at sorcery speed and you'd lose the ability to dodge discard and skip bad draws.

Mind that this comes at time time other people want Probe banned because it makes Therapy good.

Can you guys please decide between:

a) Probe/Therapy being too good in the format so Probe needs a ban
b) Brainstorm turning Probe/Therapy (and discard in general) unplayable

Those are two extremely contradicting positions, I keep reading here back to back and actually wonder how the complaints about Probe would go away if you remove the most common card used (Brainstorm) to mitigate the damage done by Probe+Therapy

[Whitefaces]

People are complaining about the power of Probe with Therapy among other things. It's not the only argument, you're cherry picking.

I think you're also just mashing thoughts from different people and taking it as a forum consensus too. Can you find the last post of someone saying Brainstorm completely invalidates discard (it doesn't of course, it's just strong vs it)? Last time I remember seeing that it was when people were also complaining about SDT, which was even better vs discard.

[taconaut]

I recognize you guys are different posters, but aren't these ideas at least a little contradictory:

The problem with cantrips is that they aren't really interactive. Unless you're also playing blue, they promote less interaction.

I'm still fine with this, I like my delver matchup and everything, it's just that sometimes they get to play the delver game where they basically swing Delver 7 times and you play nothing because they always cantrip into that perfect daze, that perfect wasteland and that perfect removal. My point is, playing against this is not funnier than Tomb->CotV@1->go.

Sure, it's difficult to interact specifically with the cantrips themselves (though I'd argue many of the cards Barook cited interact with them aggressively, like chalice and thalia), but having cantrips allows people to interact more - they're able to find their removal, their wastelands, etc. Without that selection, it'd be much more: "oh, I could really use a push right now" *draw step is a land* "well, I guess I'm dead."

Blue still hogging all the stack interaction is a major design flaw of Magic and I doubt it's going to get better anytime soon.

I'm not really sure how to handle this one; maybe give a bit more to red and white? The color distinctions don't bother me as much, but I know some people have a particular distaste for blue that is probably analogous to my dislike of creature combat, so. It's also one of the things I find weird about the cantrip argument - nobody ever seems mad about Green Sun's Zenith, or Sylvan Library, or Faithless Looting, or Entomb, or Recruiter of the Guard, or any other consistency engines that are non-blue. I get that the blue one is probably still the best, but one has to be, right? Shouldn't it be in the color that (at least used to be) focused on card quality and quantity?

[Stevestamopz]

Now that Food Chain instakills with Walking Ballista, can we finally unban Goblin Recruiter? It was a joke to have still been banned 4 years ago and now it's just a worse version of a card/combo that already exists (in a blue/deathrite shell too) and is half a percent of the metagame.

[Dr_D]

It's also one of the things I find weird about the cantrip argument - nobody ever seems mad about Green Sun's Zenith, or Sylvan Library, or Faithless Looting, or Entomb, or Recruiter of the Guard, or any other consistency engines that are non-blue. I get that the blue one is probably still the best, but one has to be, right? Shouldn't it be in the color that (at least used to be) focused on card quality and quantity?

Sure, but now blue also has some of the best creatures too, which wasn't previously the case.

[Stuart]

Wow, so many quality posts. Also surprising that BS, Probe, and Tomb are getting lots of chatter but DRS isn't.

If you think tomb is broken, you've never drawn two tombs against burn or delver and sat there and wondered why you bothered to show up with your non brainstorm deck after round 3

T1 threat (DRS/Delver/Goose) then cantrip into flip+disruption is equally as backbreaking as T1 chalice, if not more.

Sticking a T1 chalice against any blue deck is also borderline impossible, as the average stompy/mud list has 25-35% chance to be able to make that play with their opening 7. Delver decks, on the other hand, have a T0 40% chance to have an active Force of Will on the draw, and 70%+ chance to have protection in your T1 (fow/daze/pierce) if they are on the play.

T1 Land, Delver, pass .
T1 Tomb (unfun card ), Chalice (unfair card ), resp force of will.
T2 Delver flips, swings for 3, ponder, wasteland on tomb, pass.

Now what? Restarting the game with no board, 75% of your hp and a 5-turns flying clock sitting on their side looks like a very grim perspective to me, no matter how unfun and unfair are the cards I play.

Can confirm. Even one Tomb vs Delver is risky, but two is almost an auto-loss (unless you're on the play and land something like a turn 3 Wurmcoil). Outside of combo matchups, the 2 life is a real downside to playing Tomb.

I think Rich Shay's excellent post (about vintage) is good for this discussion as well. If the cantrips are to be preserved, it's time to start taking a look at the top ends.

http://themanadrain.com/topic/1360/t...nastery-mentor

+1 on this as recommended reading.

The problem with cantrips is that they aren't really interactive.

Yep.

Legacy is fine at the moment and has been more fun than I can remember in a long time. We've had to trudge through the last six years with Mental Misstep, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time and Sensei's Divining Top just pushing the format to levels of stagnancy and boredom to the point where I can imagine it pushed people away. If anything, I would expect an unban rather than a ban the next time a change occurs.

Agreed. Even if I like to say that BS needs a ban, Legacy is in a pretty nice place for anyone whose meta doesn't mirror MTGO (i.e. just Delver, 4C, Storm, etc). I'll be disappointed if there's a ban later this month.

[taconaut]

Sure, but now blue also has some of the best creatures too, which wasn't previously the case.

Yeah, that's true, True-Name/Leovold/Delver are all kinda dumb, I agree. Still seems weird that people object to consistency, but only a very specific hue of it.

[Zombie]

I'm not really sure how to handle this one; maybe give a bit more to red and white? The color distinctions don't bother me as much, but I know some people have a particular distaste for blue that is probably analogous to my dislike of creature combat, so. It's also one of the things I find weird about the cantrip argument - nobody ever seems mad about Green Sun's Zenith, or Sylvan Library, or Faithless Looting, or Entomb, or Recruiter of the Guard, or any other consistency engines that are non-blue. I get that the blue one is probably still the best, but one has to be, right? Shouldn't it be in the color that (at least used to be) focused on card quality and quantity?

The problem is that it's best by a few country miles, and slots into everything (or has everything built around it, whichever you prefer). I'm fine the moment not playing the cartel is a genuine consideration in general deckbuilding. Whether it's card selection creep in other colors or Brainstorm getting the axe, I don't really care. I just want a diversity of CQ/CA engines, they decide a lot of a deck's feel.

Also, despite the stellar manabases the format enjoys, they are still blue and take up a color which is not a nonexistent cost. Playing blue is playing blue, and you end up playing blue if you want the cartel because it's easy and good, and you kinda have to play the cartel.

[taconaut]

I'm fine the moment not playing the cartel is a genuine consideration in general deckbuilding. I just want a diversity of CQ/CA engines, they decide a lot of a deck's feel.

Isn't it already a genuine consideration? Decks like Lands, Elves, and BR Reanimator all have different consistency engines, and are real decks.

If you mean "novel" deckbuilding or brewing, then I think that goes back to the point I made before about the nature of the format - sometimes the thing that is cool is just not up to the power level of existing stuff you can do in the format, and getting rid of cantrips won't change that. Even if you ban Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe, and Serum Visions (gotta send a message), is whatever brew deck going to be able to overcome Gamble into Loam, or GSZ into duder toolbox, or Faithless Looting + Entomb, or any of the other existing quality decks? Why is it always the blue ones everyone blames?

[Crimhead]

The problem with cantrips is that they aren't really interactive. Unless you're also playing blue, they promote less interaction. Why? Blue is pretty much the only color that can interact with them via counters...

...Blue still hogging all the stack interaction is a major design flaw of Magic and I doubt it's going to get better anytime soon.

This has nothing to do with Cantrips though, it's true of most any consistency tools.

GZS, Gamble, Crop Rotation, Glimpse, Faithless Looting, Recruiter, etc, are just as hard to interact with. That’s okay because you can generally interact with the cards they find.

I think having more non-cantrip decks would be great, but I can't see that making a more interactive format (nor do I think Legacy has an interaction deficit).

Because they all have the same weaknesses in that they lean on the cantrips to cheat on mana and total number of win conditions.

This just isn't true. Taxing effects are a nuisance for Delver, a full stop for Storm, and almost useless vs S&T. Graveyard hate crushes UB Reanimator but does little or nothing vs Delver, Storm, etc.

My Lands deck is a huge favourite vs Delver, a moderate favourite vs Pyro or UW blade, a moderate dog vs Storm, and dead in the water vs S&T or Reanimator. How can I have such skewed match-ups vs the same style deck?

I agree that the format would be a bit better if non-cantrip decks took a bigger share. But this idea that cantrip decks all play the same style is straight-up indefensible.

Edit - I also challenge the claim that cantrip decks cheat on the threat count. Seems to me Aggro Loam is not running more threats than cantrip midrange decks like Nobel BUG or Czech Pile. And I don't think RB Reanimator runs more threats than the UB cantrip version.

[Thresh84]

...is whatever brew deck going to be able to overcome Gamble into Loam, or GSZ into duder toolbox, or Faithless Looting + Entomb, or any of the other existing quality decks? Why is it always the blue ones everyone blames?

Some of those folks are mad that their favorite deck is no longer viable and blame blue for it. Others just don't enjoying playing the endless sea of blue (cantrips/control/drs/delver) or dislike the color in general. Granted, would they prefer to play Chalice.DEC or Loam or D&T all day? I think not. I love to not ban cards but unban some and see what happens.

[maharis]

Isn't it already a genuine consideration? Decks like Lands, Elves, and BR Reanimator all have different consistency engines, and are real decks.

If you mean "novel" deckbuilding or brewing, then I think that goes back to the point I made before about the nature of the format - sometimes the thing that is cool is just not up to the power level of existing stuff you can do in the format, and getting rid of cantrips won't change that. Even if you ban Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe, and Serum Visions (gotta send a message), is whatever brew deck going to be able to overcome Gamble into Loam, or GSZ into duder toolbox, or Faithless Looting + Entomb, or any of the other existing quality decks? Why is it always the blue ones everyone blames?

Because the blue ones require so little build-around. The difference between Ponder, GSZ and Recruiter of the Guard should be obvious. The latter two require that you have creatures of a very certain characteristic in your deck, AND that you pay more than one mana. Ponder works in your one-land hand, in your 5-land hand, as a late topdeck, as your scry to the top after a mulligan, in your combo deck, in your midrange deck, in a tempo deck, with creatures, without creatures... you get the point.

Look at the other deckbuilding restrictions: Entomb requires that you play something out of the GY. Loam requires GY synergies and lots of lands -- these cards are often junk without an active loam. Glimpse requires a critical mass of creatures.

The blue cards slot into EVERYTHING and synergize with key early interaction police cards like Daze and Force plus insane top ends like TNN, Angler, Jace. They glue the goodstuff piles together more than anything else, more than Deathrite, more than duals and fetches.

You have to understand that the helplessness you feel when holding a hand full of one-drop spells against a Chalice is the same sense that a player without cantrips feels when they fan open their 1-land 6-card hand on the draw.

IMO the best argument for retaining the cantrips as legal is to preserve Storm as a deck in Legacy. Because I do agree that things like engine combo or creatureless decks are important to the format's identity.

But something like 90% of Brainstorm decks aren't storm, and those are the ones people complain about (the greedy/goodstuff piles that promote monotonous games). And by the same token, I think that if we are deciding that cantrips are crucial to retain a certain kind of deck in this format, that is just as subjective as if we were to decide that one engine taking up two-thirds of the format is too far.

[taconaut]

Look at the other deckbuilding restrictions: Entomb requires that you play something out of the GY. Loam requires GY synergies and lots of lands -- these cards are often junk without an active loam. Glimpse requires a critical mass of creatures.

I agree that they cantrips require less deckbuilding considerations, but I think that is also in exchange for power level to some extent. Entomb requires that you play something out of the graveyard, but the something is griselbrand and you win. Loam requires graveyard synergies and lots of lands, but enables itself and doesn't cost mana, works from the grave, etc. Glimpse requires a critical mass of creatures, but lets you use those creatures to potentially draw ten or more cards. The cantrips exchange game-breaking impacts for flexibility (which, I think you could/would argue fairly, is ultimately better, I just don't think it's "banworthy" better).

You have to understand that the helplessness you feel when holding a hand full of one-drop spells against a Chalice is the same sense that a player without cantrips feels when they fan open their 1-land 6-card hand on the draw.

Why do we want more of this? The fewer consistency engines available, the more this will happen to people.

IMO the best argument for retaining the cantrips as legal is to preserve Storm as a deck in Legacy. Because I do agree that things like engine combo or creatureless decks are important to the format's identity.

As an ANT player, I appreciate the acknowledgement.

But something like 90% of Brainstorm decks aren't storm, and those are the ones people complain about (the greedy/goodstuff piles that promote monotonous games).

I think people complain about Storm a lot, too, and they're not always wrong - I've had my share of brainstorms that turned an "ok" hand into "you're just dead," so I totally get it. If they banned brainstorm this month, I'd really have a hard time arguing against it from a powerlevel standpoint; the card is obviously broken. That being said, I hope they don't, because I think it adds more to the game than it takes away.

[Megadeus]

I'm fine with most cantrips, but brainstorm is far and away the best card in the format and I feel like an idiot every time I play a non brainstorm deck at a large event after I've lost because I drew running lands with no way to change them out for spells. If BS were banned I think there would still be plenty of decks that play 8+ cantrips, and they would probably be very good, but they would receive a blow. I mean we had a GP where the top 32 was 87% brainstorm decks. That's completely absurd. It really just proves that outside of 4 lucky people, if you want to top a large event you're starting the deck building process with 4 brainstorm.

[Mr. Safety]

What I like about Brainstorm and its absurd power level is that it allows for people to brew kooky decks and have them be somewhat reliable, simply because they can play 6-8 fetchlands + Branstorm and reasonably see the cards they need to make their pile work. Lots of people want to get into legacy and try to brew their own decks, this is part of what makes Magic fun by allowing people to choose-their-own-adventure. Someone getting into the format likely plays commander or modern, so fetchlands and shock-duals are likely to be in their collection. Brainstorm is an inexpensive card that powers up even the janky-est of decks. The same can be said of Ponder and Preordain, but those don't allow for as complicated tricks (such as in response to discard, etc.) Yes it powers up the best decks, but it also allows the lowliest of new players to also have their FuckingWhatever.dec reasonably perform, even if its underpowered.

I wouldn't be upset if they banned Brainstorm (well, maybe a little) but I wouldn't be upset if it never gets banned. I play legacy to do/see/play against broken things, and legacy is expensive enough without making the jump to Vintage. Let me brew my tier 347 Thopter Foundry combo deck with Brainstorm please, and when I get the big stuff such as Force of Will, true duals, and Jace TMS, please let me use Brainstorm in that deck too. Ponder will do if I can't have Brainstorm. Thnx.

[jimmythegreek]

Apparently there can be civilized conversation about brainstorm without the nerd-rage, congrats to all involved.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Quick, somebody unban nedleeds and get the thread back on track.

[morgan_coke]

I think one thing that's pushed the power of the "cantrip cartel" over the top vs. other, less consistent plans is that the stuff the cartel plays is now just better than what you could get in other colors. Delver by itself pretty much invalidated the entire Zoo deck. 'Goyf killed Goblins. Leovold and TNN and Pyromancer beat pretty much every every other creature plan. DRS craps all over anyone trying to pull incremental or lategame grindy advantage from the graveyard. And all of those go in with the cantrips.

There's just a huge, huge difference between Mongoose/Werebear and Delver/Goyf.

I mean, when was the last time it was even remotely worth it to run Dark Ritual in a deck that wasn't combo? Hippie might not cut it anymore, but things like Liliana do. But the inconsistency isn't worth it anymore because every deck has to at least try to keep up with the cantrips.

[Crimhead]

I think one thing that's pushed the power of the "cantrip cartel" over the top vs. other, less consistent plans is that the stuff the cartel plays is now just better than what you could get in other colors. Delver by itself pretty much invalidated the entire Zoo deck...

There's a lot to be said for this.

Worth noting that Shardless BUG supplanted Jund despite running mostly the same set of threats. Then again, Jund was pretty solid up until the printing of TNN.

I'm not actually convinced that the Cantrip decks are objectively better than the non-cantrip decks. While Grixis Tempo might be the single best deck*, it is not at all clear that other decks like Blade, Czech, etc are actually better than decks lime D&T, Elves, etc. There are more decks than run cantrips (because they slot into more play-styles), but those decks are not necessarily better.

*I'm not even convinced Grixis Delver is the best deck. It puts up the best numbers, but we know it's heavily played. The fact that Lands gets the results with (presumably) a fraction of the players says a lot. We don't have access to this data, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lands has the best conversion rate in the entire format.

I mean, when was the last time it was even remotely worth it to run Dark Ritual in a deck that wasn't combo?

Probably the last time it was even remotely worth it to run mono Pox?

[CptHaddock]

Worth noting that Shardless BUG supplanted Jund despite running mostly the same set of threats. Then again, Jund was pretty solid up until the printing of TNN.

Nailed it.

How could a deck that consistently plays 4x Liliana main and has frequently played -X/-X board wipes and engineered plagues because of it's problems with decks like elves ever deal with that card?