[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Moctzal]

You aren't hearing me. I gave you the context, and even stated as much. I'm trying to be polite and give you my point of view. I've done so, but you are being intentionally dense, not giving thought to my words. This is apparent in your response. I never made a reference to standard, in fact there were no fetches in CoK block standard. I mention this as an example to my statement of "You aren't hearing me."

90% bad play? Let's say one player Gitaxian Probes paying 2 life and drawing a card after seeing they only have one land that is a fetch, it's way worse to name the fetch with Pithing Needle in this scenario than it would be if you instead had the ability to turn 1 Spyglass? There's no guarantee that you see something to even name in either scenario. At that point the scenario with Pithing needle is probably the better one to be in as at least you don't have to cast it, and maybe there is something better to cast now that you have more information anyway.

Naming a fetch in this format is short-sighted and mostly irrelevant in my opinion, corner-cases notwithstanding, and we don't play things in this format because niche uses. It's just not a viable or sustainable strategy for winning.
I frankly don't care if you listen or give thought to what I'm saying, but this has happened often since you started posting, and I just can't find a reason to have more interaction with you. I wish you the best.



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I agree here. Revoker is also a 2/1 for 2 that can come off of Vial in response to a cast permanent that you want to shut off. Being able to shut off mana rocks and mana dorks is a bonus as well. A 2/1 is generally more proactive than a 2 mana artifact in my books. I don't really view D&T as a prison deck. I view it as disruptive aggro. The decks goal is keep your opponent off pace, not lock them out. The games where D&T lock opponents out are generally of the free win variety. In order to swing games in the margin to your favor, pilots need to be using cards like Thalia, Revoker, Rishadan Port etc very effectively. You're going to slightly edge opponents out of games just as often as you lock them out.

I don't think Spyglass is playable unless a deck is running Sol lands and Chalice of the void. I'd be loathe to run it in any deck with Thalia in it.

I bring in Pithing Needle to name fetches in exactly one matchup: Storm, because my other cards coming out are an even more anemic.

Also, grayryker, I'm going to suggest that cool your jets. You've been making some pretty aggressively toned posts recently, veering close to personal attacks, and a lot of what you've been saying in here has been detracting from the quality of conversation that usually goes on here.

[grayryker]

You aren't hearing me. I gave you the context, and even stated as much. I'm trying to be polite and give you my point of view. I've done so, but you are being intentionally dense, not giving thought to my words. This is apparent in your response. I never made a reference to standard, in fact there were no fetches in CoK block standard. I mention this as an example to my statement of "You aren't hearing me." You have the nerve to call me intentionally dense and yet you keep pretending like my position is "use spyglass mainly as a mana denial tool"

90% bad play? Let's say one player Gitaxian Probes paying 2 life and drawing a card after seeing they only have one land that is a fetch, it's way worse to name the fetch with Pithing Needle in this scenario than it would be if you instead had the ability to turn 1 Spyglass? There's no guarantee that you see something to even name in either scenario. At that point the scenario with Pithing needle is probably the better one to be in as at least you don't have to cast it, and maybe there is something better to cast now that you have more information anyway.

Naming a fetch in this format is short-sighted and mostly irrelevant in my opinion, corner-cases notwithstanding, and we don't play things in this format because niche uses. It's just not a viable or sustainable strategy for winning.
I frankly don't care if you listen or give thought to what I'm saying, but this has happened often since you started posting, and I just can't find a reason to have more interaction with you. I wish you the best.



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You are the one not comprehending what I am saying. I refetenced standard because you brought up the "oh people realized this was how needle should be played". Again, what does that have to do with the strategy now? Both glass and needle are mainly going to be sideboard cards but what makes glass special is it actually has qualities that make it potentially playable in the main (for similar reason revoker is playable in main).

Again, "90%" of the time. You interpret this as a 100%. If you side in needle against a deck and you are using it on a fetchland, then you are doing it wrong. If your opponent misses their land drop, you know their hand, they scry card to bottom, etc. by all means such scenarios will give needle that 10% scenario. Again, you take one part of my argument and distort it to the max. You did the same by taking "can mana denial better than port" and spouting some weird rant about a position I am not taking.


You do realize you can name a card that you did not see even off of glass? It works exactly like needle but with hand information. I can't understand your 2nd paragraph and it may be because you did not read this card properly. It doesn't make sense that needle 'would have been better' in any of the scenarios you listed.

And again, what part of sorcerous spyglass is niche? You side it in the same way you would side in a needle. Of course, needle will sometimes be better but all I ever did was say "look here is a card we shouldn't overlook". I never said "replace rishadan ports with spyglass" which is just you putting words in my mouth and attacking strawmen. Again, if you think I am wrong about this feel free to point it out. I will quote you word for word. Btw I have a straightforward way of talking so don't take it personally if I am not using emoji or sugarcoating my words.

[grayryker]

I agree here. Revoker is also a 2/1 for 2 that can come off of Vial in response to a cast permanent that you want to shut off. Being able to shut off mana rocks and mana dorks is a bonus as well. A 2/1 is generally more proactive than a 2 mana artifact in my books. I don't really view D&T as a prison deck. I view it as disruptive aggro. The decks goal is keep your opponent off pace, not lock them out. The games where D&T lock opponents out are generally of the free win variety. In order to swing games in the margin to your favor, pilots need to be using cards like Thalia, Revoker, Rishadan Port etc very effectively. You're going to slightly edge opponents out of games just as often as you lock them out.

I don't think Spyglass is playable unless a deck is running Sol lands and Chalice of the void. I'd be loathe to run it in any deck with Thalia in it.

I bring in Pithing Needle to name fetches in exactly one matchup: Storm, because my other cards coming out are an even more anemic.

Also, grayryker, I'm going to suggest that cool your jets. You've been making some pretty aggressively toned posts recently, veering close to personal attacks, and a lot of what you've been saying in here has been detracting from the quality of conversation that usually goes on here.

Revoker isn't competing in the same slots as spyglass. I am not angry at all. I'm being blunt people like you are distorting everything I am saying. I said "hey this is a card you may want to try out" instead of saying "this is an absolute staple". Again, you talking about bringing needle against storm (as if this was what I am proposing) is pretty laughable.

Detracting from the quality of conversation? That is a bit ironic. Few people here ever talk about the weaknesses of the deck, any of the statistics, innovations, etc.

[zakzes]

Against elves, 90% of the time the obvious target (aside from just scooping and getting lunch) is to name symbiote. By artifact based decks I assume you mean MUD, in which case the choices are pretty obvious, they only have so many targets to hit and the way they play can be pretty telling as to where they're headed. If you are playing revoker reactively, you are probably behind. Most decks have 1-2 potential revoker targets. Spyglass's information is certainly fantastic, but it doesn't answer any questions we currently have. Where does it shore up our bad match ups/where do we really want it? Two mana is a huge investment that just sits there to not really do anything more than pithing needle. EDIT: quoting on mobile is acting weird.

[grayryker]

I wouldn't call revoker a reactive card at all. If you know the match up, you should know what to name. I am very seldom caught off-guard with a revoker, unless we are playing against a deck with multiple good targets, but knowing where you are in the game there is usually an obvious target.



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Again, depends on the match and the pacing. If I'm playing against red sneak attack or old miracles, it's obvious what to name at any stage of the game. Play against any artifact based deck and elves and this is where you don't have a single obvious target.[/QUOTE]Against elves, 90% of the time the obvious target (aside from just scooping and getting lunch) is to name symbiote. If you are playing revoker reactively, you are probably behind. Most decks have 1-2 potential revoker targets. Spyglass's information is certainly fantastic, but it doesn't answer any questions we currently have. Where does it shore up our bad match ups/where do we really want it? Two mana is a huge investment that just sits there to not really do anything more than pithing needle.

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Well this is the difference isn't it? Revoker fits the main better because it is a creature. When you need extra denial for lands, a good case can be made for glass over needle. Like I said, this is where revoker is a reactive card. I can blind name thespian stage with needle and get blown out by molten vortex, which I could have named with glass given the hand information. Maybe I am tempted to needle the deathrite shaman on board when I should really be targeting the 1 of pernicious deed in hand. Again, the hand information shouldn't be underestimated. Not being a body susceptible to removals and boardwipes is actually often a good thing.

Note I am not promoting you bring this card in every match-up where it will have a target, for the same reasons I wouldn't be playing revoker agaisnt Czech Pile just to name walkers and deathrite.

[Finn]

I don't think Spyglass is playable unless a deck is running Sol lands and Chalice of the void. I'd be loathe to run it in any deck with Thalia in it.

I sure hope everyone uses this assumption as a starting point on this topic. In a format with Brainstorm, the value of looking before calling is diminished to begin with, but considering how we use Pithing Needle (typically as an imperfect emergency measure) this just seems like an amateur card choice. Tapping two mana on your own main phase for defense is for chumps.

That said, I have been wanting Gitaxian Probes in the deck since forever. I played with Glasses of Urza --yep-- for fun a few years ago, and the information was routinely card advantage. That is, if you start with -1 (the cost of the specs), you make your way to at least +1 by the time the game is in your corner. I stopped using the card. It certainly feels win-more because it does its best work in the long games we are supposed to win anyway. But it felt powerful as an early play especially when you use it just after a Brainstorm <--psychological, and I never got to the point of analyzing it properly. It is a much better card than it once was, and this deck sorely needs the intel.

I would not swat away Spyglass so easily.

[Moctzal]

Revoker isn't competing in the same slots as spyglass. I am not angry at all. I'm being blunt people like you are distorting everything I am saying. I said "hey this is a card you may want to try out" instead of saying "this is an absolute staple". Again, you talking about bringing needle against storm (as if this was what I am proposing) is pretty laughable.

Detracting from the quality of conversation? That is a bit ironic. Few people here ever talk about the weaknesses of the deck, any of the statistics, innovations, etc.

I didn't say that you were angry, but it's interesting that you jumped to that.

Bringing in Needle vs Storm is a common thing to do, as it's not about how good Needle is objectively, it's about how good Needle is compared to other cards in the maindeck. It's a turn 1 play against a deck that is generally faster than D&T is.

You are not simply being blunt, you're combative, and insulting on a regular basis. Those are not the same things. You do not add anything of value to this thread in the majority of your posts. You've earned a second ignore now from me now in addition to another regular in this thread. I'd say that I'd hope that it causes some introspection on your part, but you're likely to just blame others like you did in the quoted post.

Innovation doesn't matter unless it produces results. You can claim you're innovating all you want to, but until you've done it enough to put up good results at tournaments that matter, you have no data to back up anything that you claim. What you're doing is theory crafting, and frankly from what I've seen, poor theorycrafting at that.

People talk about the weaknesses of the deck all the time. See the discussion regarding the red splash, which is largely an effort to shore up a couple of the deck's worst matchups.

You're acting like a small, irrational person. Every post you make responding to others in this thread proves it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I sure hope everyone uses this assumption as a starting point on this topic. In a format with Brainstorm, the value of looking before calling is diminished to begin with, but considering how we use Pithing Needle (typically as an imperfect emergency measure) this just seems like an amateur card choice. Tapping two mana on your own main phase for defense is for chumps.

That said, I have been wanting Gitaxian Probes in the deck since forever. I played with Glasses of Urza --yep-- for fun a few years ago, and the information was routinely card advantage. That is, if you start with -1 (the cost of the specs), you make your way to at least +1 by the time the game is in your corner. I stopped using the card. It certainly feels win-more because it does its best work in the long games we are supposed to win anyway. But it felt powerful as an early play especially when you use it just after a Brainstorm <--psychological, and I never got to the point of analyzing it properly. It is a much better card than it once was, and this deck sorely needs the intel.

I would not swat away Spyglass so easily.

Finn, can you clarify what your tl;dr is? It seems to begin at one end of the argument and ends at the other. I respect your opinion, I've been reading this thread long before I played, and consider you it's oldest advocate and champion. I just can't place your thoughts all in one category or the other.

I don't think that anyone dismissed the card, only that some believe it to be slightly worse than both options we currently use main and side. I concur that revoker's non-white body and ability to name mana sources of LED/Petal are why I don't think that I will swap the two main, and needle's speed as well as already knowing the relevant information by game 2 makes it less strong out of the sideboard comparatively.

Thanks for your time.

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[Finn]

I'm definitely the oldest...and I did waffle. Sorry about that.

I suppose I am lamenting that this card is not a creature, ultimately. I am pretty sure that I would not get behind the Spyglass because we have that ability mostly covered on a creature's body. And is anyone even playing four Revokers anymore? But there is a lot to be said for the ability to see your opponent's hand in this deck.

On a finer point, intel is a part of this deck that we really do not have any experience with. We have never had it to make comparisons about the relative value it brings. I am just pointing out that in my limited experiences with intel as a feature of the deck, it proved powerful - and gets better with better players. If grayryker says he has gotten some miles out of it, whatever his persona on the thread, it may be worth testing.

[DarthVicious]

*snip*
That said, I have been wanting Gitaxian Probes in the deck since forever. I played with Glasses of Urza --yep-- for fun a few years ago, and the information was routinely card advantage. *snip*

I've wanted to run that card for a long long time. Just having perfect information all the time is enough to make sure you don't make the wrong plays, with or without revoker/needle/etc. Like finding out your opponent is on burn so you can go get Jitte/Batterskull faster than you usually would. Granted, Probe would accomplish that too, but not repeatedly over the course of a game. It'd be good to know how many combo pieces your opponent has in hand already, if any. How many lands they have could influence whether to Port them early, or wait til later and develop your board. Finding out they're a creature deck would stop me from casting Thalia too early. Keeping an eye on what your opponent is up to at all times seems very very good.

Plus... those of us with a true black splash could run Cabal Therapy and completely wreck their hand every time.

Big problems with it is not affecting the board state, and competing with other 1 drops. I suppose it doesn't need to be dropped early, but it really wants to.

Also, something to be said about Toolcraft Exemplar...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm definitely the oldest...and I did waffle. Sorry about that.

I suppose I am lamenting that this card is not a creature, ultimately. I am pretty sure that I would not get behind the Spyglass because we have that ability mostly covered on a creature's body. And is anyone even playing four Revokers anymore? But there is a lot to be said for the ability to see your opponent's hand in this deck.

On a finer point, intel is a part of this deck that we really do not have any experience with. We have never had it to make comparisons about the relative value it brings. I am just pointing out that in my limited experiences with intel as a feature of the deck, it proved powerful - and gets better with better players. If grayryker says he has gotten some miles out of it, whatever his persona on the thread, it may be worth testing.

I think we all lament the lack of legs on spyglass. That would absolutely challenge my opinion of it's viability, and I would guess many more.

Intel is lacking, but with correct thinking, it can be accurately predicted an overwhelming amount of the time. I have zero room for something that *only* gets information, and that's why I am disappointed with Spyglass. It is a very good card and I think that there are certain styles of decks that will abuse the hell out of it. Is it this deck? I doubt it. Will I keep an open mind if someone makes relevant and meaningful results? Absolutely.

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[grayryker]

I didn't say that you were angry, but it's interesting that you jumped to that.

Bringing in Needle vs Storm is a common thing to do, as it's not about how good Needle is objectively, it's about how good Needle is compared to other cards in the maindeck. It's a turn 1 play against a deck that is generally faster than D&T is.

You are not simply being blunt, you're combative, and insulting on a regular basis. Those are not the same things. You do not add anything of value to this thread in the majority of your posts. You've earned a second ignore now from me now in addition to another regular in this thread. I'd say that I'd hope that it causes some introspection on your part, but you're likely to just blame others like you did in the quoted post.

Innovation doesn't matter unless it produces results. You can claim you're innovating all you want to, but until you've done it enough to put up good results at tournaments that matter, you have no data to back up anything that you claim. What you're doing is theory crafting, and frankly from what I've seen, poor theorycrafting at that.

People talk about the weaknesses of the deck all the time. See the discussion regarding the red splash, which is largely an effort to shore up a couple of the deck's worst matchups.

You're acting like a small, irrational person. Every post you make responding to others in this thread proves it.

I never said Needle should/ shouldn't be sided against Storm. I'm mocking you thinking this is what I'm proposing (i.e a pure mana denial tool) with Needle/ Glass. It's hilarious you then write a paragraph explaining what needle does against Storm. Again, evidence of poor reading comprehension.

I like how you interpreted what I said as "I'm the only person that does this" comment. Oh look another evidence of poor comprehension.

Some 'innovative' things have yet to be tested by a variety of people, hence it's still worth discussing. I guess according to your logic, pretty much anything new isn't worth discussing because it hasn't appeared in tournaments. Sound logic. Also, big tournament performances are hardly indicative of optimal builds/ cards. You'd be lucky to play a deck with a 60-70% win ratio and that's with a very good pilot and the right meta. Even if you had this high win ratio, the chances that you top 8 a tournament is still improbable. Legacy MTGO leagues are obviously a lot easier in this respect. There's always a difference between right vs wrong plays, optimal vs not-as-optimal card choices, regardless of the outcome. But I suspect none of this ever crosses your mind.

And I referred to 'data' as the statistics I posted earlier about DnT win ratio, as well as about the forum in general. Of course no one ever wants to talk about it, because it puts DnT in a bad light. I never discussed any data of my own variants so I don't know where you're going with this.

So yeah I'm the small, irrational person? I'm the one here saying "hey guys there's an interesting card worth looking into" and not distorting every sentence. If you think I'm bad at theorycrafting, point out specific examples without distorting my sentences. Instead of ignoring me (like an intellectual and emotional coward would) we can actually have a decent conversation.

[Marungo]

Yeah... so anyways guys just a quick question:
How are you boarding in the 4c Leovold matchup?

More importantly what cards are coming out? We all have different sideboards and theories as to what is good and what comes in, but what do you feel comes out in the matchup? I find myself reaching for some number of flickerwisps, revokers, and plows, but I’m curious as to what others are doing.

[Emurian]

Again, depends on the match and the pacing. If I'm playing against red sneak attack or old miracles, it's obvious what to name at any stage of the game. Play against any artifact based deck and elves and this is where you don't have a single obvious target.

Artifact - MUD: Priority:Kudolkan forgemaster > Metalworker > Ugin (then the lesss interesting ones)> Grim Monolith / Lightning Greaves (Note, our mud players over here don't use walking ballista for some rsn, which I would if I had the deck)

Elves: #1 Wirewood Symbiote
If: Boardstate: Quirion ranger / DRS / bayou - Quirion
If: Boardstate: Quirion ranger / Dryad arbor - Quirion
If: Boardstate: 1-2 Nettles, no engines - Heritage druid
If Boardstate: T1 Birchlore, T2 Nettle - Wirewood (Feels counter instinctive but its a setup for NO T2 w/cradle, if they dont pull that trigger its a sign of a glimpse chain setup

Granted, Elves are harder to predict as the player has multiple engines to get online, their all tutorable with GSZ. Biggest mistake I see is people naming heritage druid blind, Elves will get to their critical mass of mana. Its a lost battle trying to restrict their mana. And the Elves player is fine with it if you are trying to hamper his mana, as this gives him the time he needs to prepare a good glimpse.

So imo, there are good distinctive targets you can go for in those matches, I understand if your not a Elves player yourself and only play DnT that its unclear at first. Wirewood enables to much shenanigans. The main problem for a DnT player is not being able to connect with a jitte for as long as the wirewood is online. Wirewood also allow the card draw loop with visionary and more often then not are required to keep a glimpse going if the Elves player is starting to brickwall.

Quirion is better then DRS in generating mana for the deck, DRS is a glorified mana dork. The ''backup'' DRS tap, lose 2 life, bounce bayou, untap DRS, replay and do it again is a backup strat if there is a boardstall. An Elven player will just try to flood the board vs DnT in general with the sole exception being if there is a jitte with counters on the field.

I laugh my ass off every time some one puts down revoker and calls heritage druid first ^^.

Edit: I would like to add my thoughts on the discussion between Pithing needle vs the Spyglass.

The best argument I read so far goes along the lines: When I bring in Peedle game 2, I already know what I need to name.

I concur with this, thus the argument imo that spyglass lets you gain insight what you need to name beforehand comes forth out of the lack of knowledge of the DnT player not knowing what to name (I hope I don’t offend people with this statement, its not aimed at anyone)

So the main difference is gaining knowledge about your opponents hand. The main reason why decks would like to see their opponents hand in general (mainly combo) is to see if the way is clear to go off. With DnT, there is no way for you to strip away the hate card if its not an activated ability. (lets say dread of night as example) You know its coming, but theres nothing you can do about it. Now in some situations, the revealed information (removal) lets you make a play to sacrifice something less important (2nd copy of a card, or SFM over Thalia etc) in this regard, the spyglass added something that peedle is unable to do. (In some cases Prelate can stop it, but the card is rather slow, and you might play to defensive if you want to slam down Prelate and then follow up with whatever you have left) That said, those situations are somewhat rare. If I see my opponent having a hate card, well, I just got to bite the bullet and play through it, theres no reason to keep back 3 cards in hand due to 1 of them being effective vs all 3. (aside sweepers such as toxic deluge)

The thing that irks me most is that with DnT, the hardest correct play to make tends to be in turn 2. (Mainly Thalia or going SFM for equipment) I do not wish to add another card to that mix.

The main reason why I use peedles is versus lands (inkmoth / DD w/thespian combo) The spyglass additional information won’t change my mind in those specific matchups. Other matchups your targets tend to vary between 1-3, with one being the clear priority one to name.

So conclusion, I don’t think the added benefit of gaining information about what your opponent has in hand is worth the additional mana and the turn delay.

Also please keep in mind that these cards might also not be in your opener, if you peel off one of them later on, then chances are your opponents hand is 3-4 cards strong instead of 7. (Thus the added benefit diminishes in effect) Also, brainstorms invalidates most of the information gained. I just don’t see the use of the information if you do not have a (discard) follow up to make use of it.

Double edit: Also people try to keep this topic civil, the reason why I like this forum so much is because of the absence of drama. If you have a feud with someone, send him a personal message and open the dialogue that way if you have the balls for it. Bashing someone in the open in this thread is poor taste in my opinion.

[redtwister]

Is Popeye Stompy a real thing or is this a bad joke?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is Popeye Stompy a real thing or is this a bad joke?

Both.

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[mykatdied]

Is Popeye Stompy a real thing or is this a bad joke?

"I won't say that no harm came out of it, as there were some speculators who went out to drive up the price of Rishadan Brigand. To you, I apologize. Maybe test your specs before buying next time? There were also some interesting Reddit and MTGTheSource threads about the “morality” of sharing deck lists. I'm in agreement with most people. If you want it private, then test in private.

Of course, all of this is going to come back to bite me as I lose to Popeye Stompy playing for Top 8 at my next event. KARRRRRRRRma is a b****."

[Colin]

Not to distract you all from the spyglass debate....

I just thought I'd check in on the previous discussion on Czech pile. The only matches I'm dropping to that deck are against the 3x hymn to tourach versions. Anecdotally, turn 2-3 hymn hitting my lands seems to be enough for them to pick up steam, and snap hymn late game can be rough forcing a play into deluge or discarding you threats/answers.

I'm 100% sold on SofLS in the board for Eternal Weekend. so much B/G/x and so many sweepers right now and we have so many new lock pieces/tutors to recur

[iatee]

SoLaS seems fine, though ultimately the biggest problem with Czech Pile is Kolaghan's Command, and that's a problem that isn't going to be solved w/ an artifact.

I don't think DnT is favored, even vs variants w/ fewer Hymns. It feels about even to me, probably a tad unfavored with stock DnT.

[Marungo]

SoLaS seems fine, though ultimately the biggest problem with Czech Pile is Kolaghan's Command, and that's a problem that isn't going to be solved w/ an artifact.

I don't think DnT is favored, even vs variants w/ fewer Hymns. It feels about even to me, probably a tad unfavored with stock DnT.

I agree with your analysis on SoLaS. I have never liked that card because it’s just another awful card vs their card that hoses us. Think it’s just not worthwhile.