Hah, I've run Eureka-Order decks before and having both Nicol Bolas + Ugin out at the same time is a joy to behold. They are best buds. Original list from Stryfo had it, I think - he might have some videos on twitch on it but I haven't watched. I updated it a tad (Brutalities) and figure Ugin is enough of a top-end.Originally Posted by Kobra_D
I just want to expand on this a bit.
My first experience with Legacy - aside from an ill-advised foray with Oops All Spells - was Grixis Delver, which I played for about a year and a half (up until GP Vegas). Now, Grixis Delver is a great deck. It's around 50/50 against most of the field, there are plenty of interesting lines, and what I call the 'knife-fight-in-a-phone-booth' style can be really intense. On the other hand, the deck is pretty rigid. Your only real decision is whether to play the Cabal Therapy or Stifle package, and there aren't many flex spots available outside of meta-specific sideboarding.
Nic Fit is just about the polar opposite of this. On one hand, there are a lot of 90/10 or 10/90 matchups, and you can get wrecked by unfair decks. However, the deck itself is wide open - pretty much every spot aside from VetExplorer/CabalTherapy is a flex spot. Your lines are going to be incredibly diverse (especially with the 'toolbox' builds), and damn, when you hit with a blind Cabal Therapy it feels good. Also (and I have a feeling this is common even when it's not acknowledged) I love when I play a card and my opponent furrows his brow and asks if he can read it.
Let me put it this way: when I win a game with Grixis Delver I feel relieved. When I when a game with Nic Fit, I feel elated. To me, that's way better. I'll probably keep my Grixis Delver deck, and if I was going to a big tournament tomorrow, I'd probably play it. But for my weekly Legacy, on MTGO, and maybe even next year's GPs, I'll probably be playing Nic Fit, in whatever weird variation I've found most fun.
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1. Basic counts can vary. 6 or 7 is the typical amount, I lean towards 6 as a default but there are some reasons to run more or less. Sakura Tribe Elder and Nissa, Vastwood Seer each usually want an additional basic, and if you try one of the sub 4 Veteran Explorer decks (like the Cloudpost list) you can get by with less.
2. A splash isn't necessary. This deck tends to attract a low of timmies and casuals, and the result is that people usually play with more colors but it's not necessary. I (usually) play pure BG lists, rubblekill does too, and so does square_two. Grove/Fire doesn't work too well lately, Leovold has really checked that particular combo. I would say the default list is something that splashes white for Sigarda, Path, and hate cards. There's ways to make the deck work in any color. I tend to be of the opinion that BG>BG Colorless>Junk>Jund>BUG>4 color but a lot of people don't share my opinion.
3. DRS is usually only played as a 1-2 of in the main. I prefer 2 but it's not uncommon to only see 1. I do think that you generally want 4 DRS in the list though. What I try to do with my SB is to build a mana ramp package that can be swapped with Veteran Explorers for the matches where those are bad. So while I run 4 Vet 2 DRS MB, I'll include a Carpet of Flowers, 2 DRS, and a Sakura Tribe Elder in the SB.
4. Deed is going to depend on your strategy, I find that in the SE style builds, which is what I run that Deed is pretty bad because my curve is so low to the ground (it uses mana acceleration to achieve high card velocity and go wide rather than play a single big thing going tall). But in traditional builds it's good. If you're going to use it, I think 2-3 of is best. 4 tends to be too many, 1 is usually too few. I've probably had my best results with 3.
5. There's a few reasons people don't play it. The first, is that most people in Legacy enjoy playing the cantrip cabal, and that style doesn't play well in this deck. The second is that it doesn't actually do that well on streams, so it doesn't generate much interest. Third is that most builds have pretty bad combo matchups and being a deck without FoW, you're playing the format in hard mode, and most don't know how to play it successfully that way (or just have no desire to). Four is that the timmy nature of the deck tends to attract a lot more casual players which lowers the average placing in tournaments and makes it look worse. In truth, the deck is not the best deck in the format... but a good player with a good build can do pretty darn well. My own builds try to address most of these issues, and they're relatively successful at doing so, but those builds tend to not be popular because they don't play the big creatures that people are generally trying to play with a ramp deck.
In general, there's a lot of freedom in how you build the deck, and there's a lot of powerful cards available, so it's the sort of deck where good deck builders tend to do well and bad deck builders get punished pretty severely.
First off, thanks to square_2, brael, and ObligatoryReference for being such stellar gentle-folk and giving me some great feedback and welcome to the thread.
I was jamming this for a couple games on magic workstation, just to see what it could do. I was *floored* with the powerful lines the deck could take. T1 blind therapy, t2 explorer>flashback therapy>hymn. Here is the list I was tooling around with:
4x vet explorer
3x deathrite shaman
4x vampire hexmage
1x eternal witness
1x thragtusk
4x cabal therapy
2x thoughtseize
2x abrupt decay
4x crop rotation
3x hymn
2x deed
2x death cloud (yes you read that correctly)
1x green suns zenith
1x life from the loan
2x sylvan library
4x verdant
1x bloodstained mire
1x windswept heath
1x bayou
1x overgrown tomb
3x swamp
2x forest
4x wasteland
2x urborg
1x karakas
1x bojuka big
1x maze of ith
1x thespian stage
1x dark depths
Sideboard
1x scavenging ooze
1x thrun
2x choke
2x pithing needle
2x surgical extraction
2x diabolic edict
1x toxic deluge
2x golgari charm
1x maelstrom pulse
1x primeval titan
I know the list needs a ton of work, but it was obvious that the core was very powerful. I may have fallen headfirst into the stereotypical casual/timmy category, especially with trying death cloud, but it doesn't change the fact that I think this deck could do serious damage in my metagame.
Feedback on obvious flaws (that I don't see) are greatly appreciated. I like the depths package, but I'm not married to it. I also know the gsz package I have is minimal, I just couldn't get anything else in after hexmage/rotation got added.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I love eternal witness. Sometimes she isn't right but I always try to have her at 2. With crop rotations you may want a sejire steppe, I've seen it work wonders in turbo depths I imagine it would do well here.
Other than that, nic fit depths looks sweet. I don't know how much your trying to grind out opponents versus win with a 20/20 but prime time might be better than thraggy in the top end. That, however, is pure speculation on my part so take it with a huge train of salt.
On a different note: how many nissas are needed to have the deck be considered Nissa tribal? I'll hopefully have a list up tomorrow that I'm toying with, but 4 doesn't seem like enough to get the whole oops all pw feel.
The problem here is that there's not enough Nissa's that play well together. There's only two good ones, and possibly a third with the GU version... if you can maintain a high enough creature count.
Vastwood Seer and Vital Force play well together, but none of the other Nissa's really get along. If you want PW tribal I think you would have better luck with Garruk in green, or just play Gideons.
Base black with Eternal Witness and Crop Rotation isn't going to work. The best DD build right now is the Cloudpost build.
I'd play even more Rhinos if I could. I'll post my list below so you can see how I manoeuvred through the tech bit.
Thanks. The thing is, most cards I want people to discard are non-creatures, so why bother to pay 2 extra life? In the Storm MUs it can be the difference between life and death. Sure, it can be awkward vs. Sneak & Show, but that's pretty much it.
Hello to you too! Please always feel free to ask as many questions as you want! I believe the others have answered your questions so far already so I won't bother you with a third set of answers.
Alrighty, for those that were interested in my current list (I got some PMs too), here we go:
Manabase (21 - only do this if you've pushed down your curve appropriately, otherwise go for >=22 lands):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creature skeleton (20):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Consistency package (8):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
Removal Suite (11):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard:
3 Lost Legacy
3 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
As you might see my list is relatively light on removal and quite heavy on creatures. That's b/c of several things. First and foremost, I like to abuse GSZ. Second, I value synergy. I run a lot of things that tend to have "cute" interactions with oneanother. Fetchlands for instance - why not run 8 like a normal person, right? Well, they play well w/ Tireless Tracker, Courser of Kruphix, Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library so why not take advantage of that? It also makes it easier to just fetch basics. Dryad Arbor does well w/ GSZ (mimicking an Llanowar Elves on T1), CT, Meren and Courser of Kruphix + Volrath's Stronghold. The third reason is that I like to turn the tables on my opponent. I.e. rather than try to answer whatever my opponent does, I like to force them into the position where they need to answer whatever I'm doing. Be it a DRS/Scavenging Ooze messing with their gameplan, a Courser of Kruphix/Tireless Tracker threatening to let me get the upper hand in CA or a Siege Rhino (or 2) that starts to pressure them.
One thing I might have to address are the Mirri's Guiles. I run those basically to mimic the cantrip cartel's consistency, b/c that's what usually does us in in the long run - variance. With a Guile/Library out you get to look at more cards than most blue players do, giving you the ability to outmanoeuvre them. Guile doesn't replace itself and Library is definetely better in the long game, but I don't think I'll ever take them out of my list.
If you guys have any questions regarding the list or how it plays, just let me know.
Thank you for your explanation I really do appreciate it. Yes I do feel the pinch in casting my Blue cantrips on time sometimes but those were in matchups where I am usually gifted a whole load of more time than other matchups.
Quite interested in this list, care to share or point me to the direction of the post?
Your manabase needs work, it's unstable. Too few initial manasources for both your colours.
Since you're focusing on lands, how about Ramunap Excavator. It can regrow your combo pieces and generate a lot of value. I'd add a Volrath's Stronghold while you're at it. It allows you to go Ramunap -> regrow Stronghold, return Hexmage.
As for your SB - in what MUs do you think you'll need P. Titan/Thrun? It seems like a waste of SB space.
@Mr. Safety: I have a few thoughts that may or may not help you. Your list looks spicy and interesting, for sure. It kind of looks like a Turbo Depths list packing Veteran + Therapy, not that I have a lot of experience with that deck. And there's also the BG Loam Pox deck that is basically using Smallpox over the Veteran Explorers. Again this is a very rough comparison. So what is the advantage of using the Nic Fit shell? Well, I guess Depths + Stage requires 4 lands in play so you get to ramp into that, while using Therapy twice to clear the path for stack interaction with Marit Lage. Fair enough, that makes sense.
For me, the main question regarding this list is how you intend to benefit from the Nic Fit elements, and if you should utilize that capacity more. So that's the avenue I'll explore. Deed is great for sure, resetting the table if needed. It's similar to how it's used in BUG Reanimator Fit or Sneaky Fit (and said BG Loam Pox): you have a combo style win and when the opponent has established board control and a clock you get to reset the board, buying you more time to combo out for a very low cost. Another very synergetic card is Green Sun's Zenith. Of course there is not much room in your list for green creatures. The Witness seems nice since you get back whatever you need to disrupt the opponent or to combo out again. And gaining life from a Thragtusk can be good, giving you another turn or two to win. I'm thinking that the Vampire Hexmages seem a bit loose to me. You can't tutor for them, in this list, so you need 4 to be able to draw them. But you only have one Dark Depths, so unless you draw your one-off Life from the Loam (actually there's 1 Witness and 1 GSZ too, point may be moot) your second Hexmage will be a pretty unimpressive draw (have you ever felt that in your games?). The explosiveness probably makes up for that, but maybe you have some room to experiment with the Hexmage slots? They could go into e.g. 1-2 Ramunap Excavator, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper and 1-2 Green Sun's Zenith. That way you would build on the synergies of the Nic Fit shell. But you would lose out on explosiveness so it may not be better. It was my first thought anyway.
You are also very heavy on discard for a Nic Fit deck. Most lists only play 4 discard maindeck, a few add 1-2, especially being Collective Brutality since it plays the role of removal too. And your list plays 9 discard spells. With your fast combo kill that seems like a reasonable approach. Still, changing some of them into 1-2 Collective Brutalities would let you both interact with the opponent's hand and get rid of Deathrites that mess with Loam and Witness once you are past turn 3-4 and discard seems less important. And once you added CB to the maindeck, Lingering Souls [edit: ah, no white in the list, never mind] starts to look nice for the sideboard. It attacks on a different angle than Marit Lage (many small creatures), it hoses some of the hate that is brought in vs Marit Lage and it's good vs Planeswalkers and Delvers. No new tech really, just worth mentioning.
Other slots that seem like you could experiment with are Deathrite Shaman, 3 are a lot, and Veteran Explorer. Unless I'm aiming heavily for 6+ lands in play I usually prefer adding a GSZ (if playing less than 4, obviously) over the fourth copy of Veteran Explorer. Because that late game GSZ is so much better than a late game Veteran Explorer, while the early game GSZ is pretty good in relation to the early game Veteran Explorer. But this is probably controversial, and your list wants to be explosive so it makes some sense keeping Vet at 4 copies. Anyway reducing these by two would give you another two slots for GSZ + green creatures. I guess next you would need to consider what green creatures that would suit to cover up your weak matchups. Maybe Gaddock Teeg or Scavenging Ooze. Teeg locks down some bad stuff, like Natural Order vs Elves or win conditions vs Storm [edit: actually stopping FoW so you can Crop Rotate safely may come up too]. While Ooze is another life gainer (perhaps competing with the Thragtusk in your list) that lets you interact with the opponent's Life from the Loam, Snapcaster Mage etc. On the other hand Bojuka Bog already does that.
Well, that's my initial thoughts on seeing the list, just to hopefully give you some ideas on what other directions the list could take. It would be nice to hear you explain what role the deck would fill in your local metagame, and why you're not just playing Turbo Depths. I think that would answer how the deck can be developed.
It was a first-shot pass at a list, with only a basic understanding of what the deck does. I was throwing stuff against a wall and then coming here to see what sticks.
I knew the mana-base was going to need work, for sure. I would think Volrath's Stronghold would stretch the non-colored sources even further, though I think cutting a Wasteland would be fine. I really like the Ramanup Excavator idea, better than the singleton Loam. I'll definitely pick one up.
Thrun was just a generic anti-blue deck card, something that would be hard to deal with. I can see the argument for just not playing it at all if it isn't main, and I also was going back through the last 2-3 pages on this thread and see that some folks are dropping him entirely. Primeval Titan was another big beater for grindier matchups that could also double-tutor for Depths/Stage. Maybe he's a maindeck card, or another wasted slot.
My thinking on base black was to abuse Death Cloud (and Hexmage/Hymn obviously.) Instead of scaling threats up I was trying to scale up the control factor. I could easily see this getting to 6-7 mana in the midgame and being left with 3 lands while opponents are just wiped out. I've played Loam Pox in the past and Smallpox seems to be good, but I wanted greater control over the number (and the pox for1 doesn't seem strong enough when compared to DC for 2-3.) With Nic-Fit and its fast mana I saw Death Cloud as a way to zone in on the right number for maximum effectiveness/minimal setback on myself. Same reason for why I don't want Pox, I want to get the number right (and 2 is sometimes the best number.) I may be too far into timmy territory, if so, just say it. I can take it, I'm a grown-up (lol.)
Considering the big problem with my list (mana-base instability with base-black) I'm really curious what you guys would suggest to solve it. I'll propose some changes, and if you don't mind, let me know if I'm off or maybe a better idea. I won't repost the whole list, just changes and see what you think.
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Death Cloud
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Dryad Arbor
This could solve the initial green-source problem that will halt the deck's progress. I would still need an initial green source (basically a fetch into Bayou) to get this correct for double black on turn 2.
-1 Loam
+1 Ramanup Excavator
This will allow another GSZ to work as a tutorable 'loam' effect, which could help grind out longer games. He makes my Wastelands better without having to spend mana every turn, but I'm not sure that's an issue (unless I Death Cloud.) My thought with loam was that it dodges Pernicious Deed, and Excavator does not.
-1 Eternal Witness
+1 Primeval Titan
The Witness was just a concession to historical context, based on the primer. I wasn't really looking for the fair shot at GG1 for it, but rather just wanting a GSZ target that could make incredibly good use of 4 mana. With the combo plan, going this deep into grind-town seems bad now. Excavator seems to be filling the recursion role just fine, especially when the recursion from the yard really wants to be lands anyways. Primeval Titan however is a double-tutor that should be easier to cast, even with base black, simply because with 6 lands at least 2 of them should produce green (or seven with one green + gsz, or Deathrite decides to help out.)
Those are small changes, but I think good ones. If there are more ideas, or just better ones, please let me know. I could easily see Death Cloud gone entirely. Its definitely a pet card, and I know pet cards are not conducive to serious play. I just love the card! If its a waste of a slot, please just say what would be better, I am open to criticism. I have a ton of g/b cards available, I've been playing those colors forever. I also have Scrublands available if anyone things a white splash accomplishes anything, but I wanted to stay focused on gb only due to effect of the colorless lands in the deck (wastelands, combo.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I'd advice against running Death Cloud as a way of trying to ramp up the control. You can't compete with the blue decks when it comes to the velocity of your control and consistency. You simply can't. Death Cloud is a big play that costs you your entire turn and easily folds to Daze/Spell Pierce/Force of Will. There's a reason why Pox-decks do very, very poorly.
As for the stability of your manabase - fetchlands, duals and 3 basics for each colour. Especially in a BG build, it should not be a problem to get enough initial manasources.
Thanks for the big response and going through all the points, I appreciate it greatly. The Nic-Fit crew seems to be quite the welcoming bunch of people.
My meta-game is overwhelmingly blue, with a bunch of Stoneblade variants, Grixis Delver, and Czech Pile being the most represented decks. I almost always run into a Br reanimator deck as well, and occasionally a storm deck. There's also a couple elves decks in my meta-game, and a slew of random 1-offs (one Sneak/Show player, one agro-loam player, a lands player, a Stompy-variant player.) I've been playing junk recently to get back into the format (been away for a while) and become familiar with the metagame. Playing Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf against a bunch of Stoneblade decks gives me the feel-bads, I don't have the countermagic to resolve them. Tarmogoyf, sadly, just isn't what he used to be in legacy anymore. Not saying its a bad deck, it's just not great (and the players at the LGS are quite good, unlike me...)
My thinking was this: Nic-Fit's fast mana lets me out-mana the fair decks, enabling big threats, using a high number of discard spells (especially Therapy and Hymn) to get the mid-late game. If I get in a pinch against the other angles of attack from other decks (see above) I could concentrate on working the Depths combo angle. Pernicious Deed/Death Cloud let me wipe the battlefield and create a game state that lets me win with only a few resources (hexmage/rotation are low to the ground.) Hexmage also doubles up as a threat (anemic, but first strike is decent) that also happens to hose Jace (I see a lot of Jaces...) Regarding the loam pox idea, I've done that before. I just don't think a pox-type strategy is very good (again, I'm not a great player.) So instead of playing a constant pox-like game state with limited resources I'd rather ramp past opponents, reset with Deed, or just win with Depths. I just think its better to disrupt and then land a bomb rather than disrupt indefinitely and try and win with Mishra's Factory/Nether Spirit. I think games like that are easier to lose due to play errors where the margins are so tight. Nic-Fit seems to be a deck that I could allow me to really *grow* as a player. Some of the comments here reinforce that (good builders/players get rewarded while bad builders/players get punished.) I'm hoping the punishment turns into growth, lol.
One style of deck that I am always trying to accomplish is the elusive hybrid. Pushing opponents into a role with one part of the deck while having another avenue available lets me flip games upside down (or that's the hope anyways.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
So like this?
7 fetches
2 duals
6 basics
4 wasteland
3 utility (bojuka bog, karakas, urborg)
2 combo
(Maze of Ith to sideboard, or dropped.)
I know, I know...pet cards are bad lol. Not even 1? *sigh* OKAY.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
7 fetches + 2 duals + 3 basic = 12, which is still below 14. If you manage to drop your utility lands and go +1 fetch & +1 of each basic, you're @14.
Another option would be 8 fetch, 3 dual & 3 of each basic for a stable 19 land manabase w/ room for utility lands.
Don't feel bad about your pet cards. I used to run Karador, Ghost Chieftain (and still kinda want to).
Wait, I wrote 6 basics (meaning 3 swamp + 3 forest). So 7 + 2 + 6 = 15.
What am I missing?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Echelon is saying you should have 14 green sources and 14 black sources.
Gotcha, that's what I was missing!
EDIT: So, list.
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
4x Vampire Hexmage
1x Primeval Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Crop Rotation
1x Life from the Loam (will become Excavator when I can get it)
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Sylvan Library
2x Green Sun’s Zenith
4x verdant catacombs
2x bloodstained mire
2x windswept heath
1x Bayou
1x overgrown tomb
4x Swamp
4x Forest
4x Wasteland
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian’s Stage
1x Bojuka Bog
Sideboard (known quantities, the rest is open)
2x Choke
2x Surgical Extraction
1-2x Lost Legacy
1-2x Diabolic Edict
That's 25 lands, but 6 of them really aren't lands (so that gets to the 19 sources Echelon was stating, and 14 of each color available early).
Dropped Death Cloud for 3rd Deed. Sideboard is wide open, hoping for suggestions.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
14 of each color is generally the baseline for your opening hand. Unfortunately for you, you have other curve considerations to consider. For example if you want to curve Vet into Hymn you're going to need to play Bayou into Swamp, and you only have 10 ways to play a GB land on T1, which means your G into BB hands are going to be weak, you also have few ways to open on Forest since you're base black.
Basically, there's a reason the Lands decks are playing Mox Diamond. It's the only way to make their mana work.
And I'm still not sure what Vet is doing here since you're not really ramping into anything.
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