Here's the deck, which got 22nd place at Eternal Weekend 2017 (Source)
Congrats to the finish!
2 Walking Ballista
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Staff of Domination
3 Trinisphere
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Coercive Portal
1 Ghirapur Orrery
1 All Is Dust
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Petrified Field
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva
Sideboard:
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Orbs of Warding
1 All Is Dust
1 Karn Liberated
Not sure, if the author is active here on The Source, I'd really love to hear his input here, too.
A few interesting considerations from the author:
Thorn of Amethyst better than Chalice, hence only 3 Chalice.
No Wastelands because ramp is more important than disruption.
Last edited by sco0ter; 10-24-2017 at 02:27 PM.
What a hero. Definitely lots of ideas I'd like to try out:
- As you mentioned, no Wastelands is interesting, especially given what he replaced them with. Petrified Field and Stage are awesome tech.
- Thorn is interesting. It's obviously insane against all the Delver what was running around, but he's also got a pretty high concentration of non-creature artifacts that get taxed by it.
- A little surprised by Blightsteel when he's only running 2 Forgemasters. Would love to know if that was ever a problem for him.
- I love the Cloister/Portal/Orrery split.
- I also like the All Is Dust. Even though I'm partial to 2-3 Ugin, All Is Dust gets the job done at a slightly cheaper rate.
- Ulamog in the board is interesting. How castable is it and what's it in there for?
Hello all. I'm the guy who got 22nd. I wholeheartedly wish I knew this enormous stream on the deck existed say maybe 3 weeks ago or 4 years ago. Ive been on this deck a long-ass time, with nobody else to really bounce ideas off of. I'm here to take my medicine, as I have a friend who clued me into this site's existence. Feel free to ask me any questions about my deck my choices and my experience. Ps that it's not really relevant anymore I'm going to read this rather massive Guide to the deck and see what I agree on and what I disagree on and what from your experiences I might be able to do to make my own deck better. As I said though, my deck is different for the reasons of my own tailoring which I'd be happy to defend
I'll answer these things first.Originally Posted by Stuart
1) Wasteland takes me off tempo, too. It was and is good when there are creeping tar pits and inkmoth nexi running around. There were not and I assume that there wouldn't be.
2) I like Thorn better than chalice (did I really say that? Yes, yes I did). It's harder to deal with and remove. TYes, I get taxed by it too, and it comes out in some matches, which is why I usually run a fourth chalice in teh board along with teh Sphere of Resistance.
3) Yes, all is dust is basicall a cheaper overall one time Ugin. I did have two Ugins until I put in the fourth thorn, because well, 4 thorns. I like 2 Ugins better than one tho, and will wind up with it back in.
4) Dude, you do realize you can CAST blightsteel, lol. I won waaaay more games leadining up to teh event by floating a bazillion mana with metalwoker and staff and drawing my deck. Blightsteel got demoted to alt win con. With the two caverns main, I just cast Balista, make it uncounterable and ping to death. If balista gets needled or it is better to g1 not let an opponent know I run it, I default to drawing, casting, equipping and killing with blightsteel. People know that it exists, already. Forgemaster more often than not locks an opponent out with Sundering Titan under tax effects or hits a spine of ish sah so I can remove...whatever needs to die.
5) I mean, Ulamog CAN cast as early as turn 2-3 in a panic button sitcon. It's there to remove threats that are hard to deal with, or to deal with clogged elvie or fishie board states. I had a game that was a near mirror, vs eldrazi 10 post, where I exiled his win condition lands and then the rest of his deck. Really silly game.
We speak for no one, we hear no one, we see no one
Welcome to The Source.
Let me ask you some questions please.
- What's your opinion on Moxen (Diamond and Opal)?
- What can you say about different mana bases? It seems there are at least two different approaches:
Sol-Lands + utility lands (also Wasteland), (aka traditional?)
Sol-lands + 8-Post + Vesuvas (seems to be more popular since around 2015)
- Have you ever played Goblin Welder MUD? Or splashed another color? If so, what's your experience?
- Is there any way to find the singleton lands (Inventors' Fair, Stage, ..)? Does this deck need one at all?
- What's your opinion on a more prison-style approach (e.g. Crucibles, Smokestack, Ensnaring Bridge, Ratched Bomb, Tangle Wire)
- What about Voltaic Key and cutting Chalice, you don't like them anyway. I think older lists did it that way, too.
- Explain us, how Petrified Field is better than lands like Mishra's Factory, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Cavern of Souls.
- What about +1 Steel Hellkite, -1 Wurmcoil Engine? Feels more flexible to me.
Thanks for sharing your expertise.
Fair enough.
1) Moxes are a no go. Chalice on zero happrns t1 way too often and they dont add enough value. Opal turns on when? T2 or 3? We are not affinity.
2) I blend 12 post with a few utility lands, hense why i only have 3-4 flex slots, imo. I run fair, field and 2 cavern in my flex land slots. The only one i was unsure of in this toruney was field. Its a hedge vs wasteland heavy decks, but i seemed to mainly avoid them.
3) Splashing colors is a generally terrible idea. Welder mud is a totally different stategy, which works better in painter than it does in mud.
4) Stax is not the stratgy I feel is strongest in legacy. It works well in vintage because although one might think its more explosive stax would be worse, but i disagree. When people count on explosions winning them the game stifling that is a great strategy. Ramp deck MUD strategies that just blow past traditional decks feels correct. Its why decls that run moxes, deathrite and or heirarchs do well, while others do not.
5) Chalice straight up wins g1s, or eats the first force. Some decks actually cannot beat it. I run 3x because i love to see it early, and occasionally for a late lock, but getting chalice flooded is a way to lose games. Dont let me running three make you think i dislike it. I dont particularly like key, and would just as soon run candellabra, at that point.
6) Field is not an attack land, its a defense land. It comes out untapped, and taps for mana and can get any land back from the pitch. It was a hedge that i only needed once. If i knew that was the track, i would have just run three caverns. As i said elsewhere, the heirarchy is 1. Cavern, 2. Factory, 3. Wasteland for utility amd power, imo.
7) The wurmcoil in the sb is usually a hellkite. I literally changed it while sitting in the room the morning of. I listen to my travelling companions and they were pretty low on elves and creature swarm decks. Ironically, i coulda used it vs fish. Death and taxes finds it s must answer as well, but wtv. Next go round its back in the board. I dont disagree.
In response to more than one tho, dont discount lifegain as a stategy in this deck. I was hovering bt 1 and 4 life on my opponents end step for multiple turns for multiple games in multiple non red matches. Having the utility 1 life gained each upkeep can be important, and one swing or block from a wurm can be game swinging, even if it does no damage to an opponent. For example i had a game where the board state for the duration of four turns before i won was me with no creatures managing the board with a staff, and a lot of mana drawing cards and running my opponent outta resources and my opponent with a stoneforge, a batterskull with a jitte and a snapcaster mage.
We speak for no one, we hear no one, we see no one
If anyone is actively curious about how any specific matches fanned out, i did also post a tournament report. That is linked to the thread on reddit and i will link here. https://tinyurl.com/yav7r3je
We speak for no one, we hear no one, we see no one
Hi malfie13! Welcome to the source, and great job on the finish with MUD! It's my favorite deck and I have a lot of experience with it, though it's been on the shelf for me for a few months. I have a couple questions regarding your card choices.
How useful has petrified field been for you? What about inventor's fair?
Did you miss having the 2 other forgemasters so you can tutor your outs?
Did you play many matches against tempo/mana denial strategies like D&T or just decks with 4 wastelands? To me it looks like cutting 2 grim monolith could be pretty devastating.
Do you feel you still need 3 trinispheres along with the 4 thorn of amethyst?
I like the list, it kind of borrows some of the cards that a stax list might play, without the stax part (bottled cloister, ghirapur orrery, coercive portal, the crucible of worlds in the sideboard)
(I'm also very glad you mentioned MUD mulligans often in your report! That's a key part of playing the deck well, IMO)
Thanks for your answers! You overlooked the one question about finding the singleton lands though, but there's probably no way.
Right. But Mox Diamond could come before Chalice on zero. I also assume that Chalice on 1 happens way more often than on 0.
The idea is and was to facilitate turn 1 Trinisphere or Chalice on 1, if you don't have a Sol land.
Opal is probably bad here, unless you run Darksteel Citadel.
Because why? Inconsistency issues? I think Welder MUD was the first deck, which made Forgemaster popular and I think in 2015 it was the more popular MUD deck. Nowadays people like more the monobrown Cloudpost MUD decks.
Not quite sure, what you want to say here. Is it like "better play threads, than answers"?
I meant replacing one of the two Wurms in the maindeck with Hellkite, in order to have more tutor targets for Forgemaster.
Thanks for the report! Interesting list.
I especially like the Ghirapur Orrery combined with Bottled Cloister. I was always afraid the opponent would also get to draw three cards hurting myself as well. Also Leovold scared me out of it, but depends on meta ofcourse.
I'm playing my 2-colorbrew MUD next month, I still like it (for reference see p.178)
Nice :-)
I love Cavern of Souls on "Artificer"! I've tried it sometimes in UR with Master Transmuter, but haven't found a satisfying list yet.
I often found myself color screwed (guess I wanted too much, with 4 Wastelands).
And I can't use Cavern of Souls for the activation cost. But the same is true for your Stoneforge Mystic build, except it doesn't hurt as much.
I walk away for five minutes....
Ok, so let me respond again, and here we go:
@ sco0ter
Cavern tends to go on Golem in gridny games and Construct in faster games. Both hit the majority of important targets. Construct is obviously usually more important under a thorn and chalice on one. Nice bolt/swords.
@ Airwave
I will check out the extra info on page 178, and as far as Leovold goes, just kill it and off to the races. Lol. I know, easier said than done. Ugin suddenly becomes the world's most expensive bolt. The bigger issue with Leo is that there are usually only two in an opposing deck, even if it is named 4c Leovold. The issue with the deck is K Command, not leo. Chalice on 3 hoses both, but then you're rliant on your cavern to cast workers. Depends on where you are in the game if that is a relevant consideration. I know I have personally been there.
@ Sco0ter's first series today
Wurms in the mainboard cannot be moved. If you have an elves and DT heavy meta I can see putting the Hellkite main. Even hits eldrazi from time to time. That said, Lifegain is a real issue mid game, and if we do not accrue some amount of it, mid game quickly becomes late game and we lose. I reallt want three wurms MB, but there's just no more changes I can make to get them in there, unless I remove a staff, which is the feel bads when you run two forgemasters.
I can absolutely see a Mox Diamon in teh MB as a maybe 2 of, but the issue is what to cut. Also, I would alter the build to MB the Crucible, then. And, then I'd be hard pressed to not include Wastelands with the MB moxes AND crucibles. Warrants thought.
As far as colorful metal goes, I think that colorless MUD's biggest strength, other than stupid amounts of ramp, and over the top spells, is not worrying about hitting color requisites. Once you have an online Welder, that's not really a worry. Until then you've got to have a fetch suite that eats into your land count. It would definitely be difficult in a post build, although great in a Dack UR build. At least as I see it. As far as what is the most popular or more popular of the builds, I have nothing for you. Lol. I really don't know the wider history of MUD, only the build I have been on for like 3 years.
Yea, I think what I am saying with the stax mention is that sometimes when you're playing a non-blue deck, it's like Judo. Pull until you push and then explode your opponent onto his or her back. A deck that is either overly aggressive or overly passive will have obvious and glaring weaknesses. They just will. I mean, my deck has holes in it. All Legacy decks have holes in them. It's not really possible for any deck to be weak to nothing.
As far as repeated mentions of the two forgemasters, they are a value engine to tutor answers when the night is blackest. They don't die to lightning bolt, but they don't also auto win games. I have come to the realization that the quickest, hardest, straightest path to victory is slamming someone to zero with a ballista. All other win cons have been marginalized. People who know of MUD decks, and their strategies, are usually expecting to be infected by a hasty Blightsteel Colossus. So, the first game I win, I tend to offer my opponent that fate if they haven't yet seen a balista in the deck, yard or my hand. I mean, floating a zillion mana, and playing every tax effect in the deck followed by all is dust, greaves and a blightsteel usually results in an auto scoop. Then I have the freedom to surprise my opponent with something else next game. PS, you can also equip the greves and pump your hellkite pre combat to a zillion/5 and kill them that way if they have no fliers. It also results in auto scoops with all the tax effects out.
Early game trinisphere tends to be where I wanna be. More decks have more trouble with trinisphere than any other tax effect as they are trying to cheat on spells. They only come out vs Show and Tell and other over the top decks. That's about it.
We speak for no one, we hear no one, we see no one
WR by Airwave list looks hilarious. Has it performed well in comp play? I mean, I can see when a meta adjusts to an artifact deck in its midst getting used to playing specific kinds of hate.... When you go into the deep waters, if often gets easier instead of harder to implement your diabolic plans. Lol I am legit curious how this performs for you, please keep us updated!
We speak for no one, we hear no one, we see no one
I haven't seen anyone playing this.. like ever... and I don't play that much myself. But it has performed really well in a few smaller legacy tournaments I did take this list to.
It's nice to have an explosive list, there are many angles the deck can function around. Putting a lot of pressure on the opponent. It's surprisingly stable as well.
It is however more vulnerable against combo since both Trinisphere and Lodestone are lacking. Whereas Storm is sortof a bye normally for MUD, this is not the case with this list. Can't beat them all ofcourse
Oh btw I did make two changes compared to p.178 inbetween:
-1 Staff of domination
-1 Thousand-Year Elixir
+1 Smuggler's Copter
+1 Thopter engineer
List looks interesting. Did you happen to see the list generated by one of my opponents in ew? He ran a mono black mudpost abyss braid stax deck. Super spicey. I believe he posted in the t64. It was good considering that there were like 750 players.
Anyway, there are a lot of matches where you need wurmcoil. Im a madman, and dont mine running several 2 to 3 of cards is im drawing tons or tutoring. Lifegain can be relevant and 1 life per staff activation isnt great.
I do like stax control if you can poop out prison pieces early, for sure. I know you say you dobt have a team to test with, and if you lived on long island id be happy to help, but proxying common and especially bad matches and running vs them helps a lot, evem vs yourself. I play 1 rd vs delver and 1 rd vs either lands or dd combo every morning with mud to keep myself sharp vs annoying common matches. I may also proxy d and t, as i have found it occasionally tricky on the draw.
Would you consider one fewer card, perhaps a city, for an inventors fair. Its a busted card bc of the tutor effect and the incidental lifegain seems relevant.
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For the sake, ive reverted to 2 ugin mb, and moved the spine to sb. Spine is much better when youve got 3 to 4 forgemasters mb and see them every game. I kinda. wanna jam a hellkite mb, too. Dunno what im moving for it other than maybe trinisphere, but three ball tends to win games.
Sundering titan can be the nuts. If your opponent is more than one color, and isnt lands anyway. It is a cunky monkey, anyway. Stays in evem vs d and t. Nice 4c deck, dude. Gotta deathrite on board? Keen. Ya gots no lands.
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WTF. I can't believe. Where do you take all this time from?
Helps to work nights. I also sometimes vs myself using my modern dredge deck vs eldrazi and death shadow, which the also the worst and the most common matches for me with dredge.
We speak for no one, we hear no one, we see no one
Malfie13 how has Sorcerous Spyglass fared for you?
Wouldn't maindeck Spheres of Resistance be overall better than Thorns?
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