All B/R update speculation.

[Claymore]

If anything, I hope what we get on Monday is some clear philosophical statement about the format so we at least have a framework to discuss it.

I doubt Wizards even acknowledges Legacy exists on the announcement. I don't think they mention the format (other than standard) if nothing is changed. For counter cat I think they mentioned Standard only because the players were so irritable plus it's the format necessary for selling packs.

I don't think Legacy was mentioned at all until Top was banned.

[Lemnear]

There are plenty of other dumb ways you can dream out games where your opponent does nothing that result in a win, but if you need to go all the way down to turn 3 before you've done anything game ending, sure, okay.

I hope this isn't a try to evaluate strength of cards solely based on how fast they can kill in a nutshell.

P.S.: pointing to Revoker, Spyglass, Extraction, Wear/Tear, etc is misleading as Survival decks work fine without the namesake card. You would board a shitload of cards just to handle a 4-off which might or might not pop up in sideboard games and still works to some extend against removal. DRS and Decay should not be named in that list, as those would be played by Survival and make it better than the 2011 versions ever were

[PirateKing]

I hope this isn't a try to evaluate strength of cards solely based on how fast they can kill in a nutshell.

P.S.: pointing to Revoker, Spyglass, Extraction, Wear/Tear, etc is misleading as Survival decks work fine without the namesake card. You would board a shitload of cards just to handle a 4-off which might or might not pop up in sideboard games and still works to some extend against removal. DRS and Decay should not be named in that list, as those would be played by Survival and make it better than the 2011 versions ever were

It's not, it's a stupid strawman to illustrate when people say Survival is too good because if your opponent sits on their hands by turn 3 you'll have lethal. That's if they sit on their hands, and if you get the right hand, and if and if. My response is so what? Ending your turn 3 tapped out and just attacked for 12, that's good board position no doubt, but you're not "just dead" the turn survival hits the board. Too many decks today do as much as that if not more, so why not this one?

And why shouldn't DRS and Decay be included? They both interact with an opponent's Survival. Just because you're playing Abrupt Decay doesn't mean the copy in my hand is without target. No point putting our my DRS, he's already got one.

[kirtar]

I doubt Wizards even acknowledges Legacy exists on the announcement. I don't think they mention the format (other than standard) if nothing is changed. For counter cat I think they mentioned Standard only because the players were so irritable plus it's the format necessary for selling packs.

I don't think Legacy was mentioned at all until Top was banned.

Ignoring Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time anyways.

[Claymore]

Ignoring Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time anyways.

Oh, yeah I'm talking just about the few announcements leading up to Top being banned. I don't think they acknowledged Legacy had a problem, they were looking at data, the state of the format, or anything of the sort. Nothing like the state of the format update they gave for Standard around the different bannings they've had.

They used to talk about the formats, but think they changed policies and only talk about a format if something changed...or it's standard.

[Crimhead]

It's interesting how many cards are judged on their worst-case scenarios without consideration to how things work in practice..

Yup!

Who remembers when a turn-1 double Black Vise was supposed to be oppressive?

[MGB]

Or a Ritualed out Mind Twist??

[Rascalyote]

On DRS - It always seemed silly to me that Jund with drs is almost unplayable and one of the best decks in the format is blue jund and people can turn and say 'yah drs is the problem that needs to go not blue cards'

[Erdvermampfa]

On DRS - It always seemed silly to me that Jund with drs is almost unplayable and one of the best decks in the format is blue jund and people can turn and say 'yah drs is the problem that needs to go not blue cards'

We have already established a few pages back that certain blue cards are much more banworthy than DRS but since those said cards constitute the format's identity to a great extent they are basically immunized from banning considerations. From now on all discussion about needed bannings should exclude the following cards: Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW, TNN, Wasteland because they represent the core of the format.

[Lord Seth]

I doubt Wizards even acknowledges Legacy exists on the announcement. I don't think they mention the format (other than standard) if nothing is changed. For counter cat I think they mentioned Standard only because the players were so irritable plus it's the format necessary for selling packs.

I don't think Legacy was mentioned at all until Top was banned.

They've mentioned Modern a few times even if there were no changes. Most of them were just generic mentions or re-mentions of their promise to not change anything before the Pro Tour, but I think they did weigh in once on Death's Shadow when it was at the height of its power.

[Gheizen64]

Mind twist in elves and black vise in stasis, some of the great predictions made in here about hypotetical oppressive unbans. I also definitely remember someone crying wolf at metalworker's unban cause it would "win on untap".

I think even land tax had some prediction about being oppressive in here.

Now it's all about that hollow one survival! I'm in stitches.

This is an hypotetical WG survival list for reference:

4 DRS
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Vengevines
1 Walla
1 Memnite
1 Loyal Retainer
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 Fauna Shaman
4 KotR
4 Thalia
1 Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Gaddock Teeg

2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords
4 SotF

23 Lands

Elesh norn allow you to murder fair decks, while iona is there for slower controllish MUs and as a safe valve vs combo in case you get to T4 or so to be able to play it.

An alternate take, RG survival!

4 Burning Inquiry
4 Faithless looting
4 Survival of the fittest
4 Squee, goblin nabob
4 Vengevines
4 DRS
4 Hollow one
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Flameblade adept
2 Hooting Mandrills
2 Street wraiths
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Anger?
18 lands

There's probably some dumb deck with LED as well in there, but i should actually start working now. Can't wait for the usual suspect calling me disabled, say there are obvious broken lists, and never provide anything actually so.

[bakofried]

We have already established a few pages back that certain blue cards are much more banworthy than DRS but since those said cards constitute the format's identity to a great extent they are basically immunized from banning considerations. From now on all discussion about needed bannings should exclude the following cards: Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW, TNN, Wasteland because they represent the core of the format.

Why did you slide True-Name Nemesis into that list of sacred cows? It's a relatively recent printing that hasn't had a single positive impact on the format.

[Matsu]

We have already established a few pages back that certain blue cards are much more banworthy than DRS but since those said cards constitute the format's identity to a great extent they are basically immunized from banning considerations. From now on all discussion about needed bannings should exclude the following cards: Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW, TNN, Wasteland because they represent the core of the format.

I always thought only Dual Lands were the core of the format
Thank you for enlightening me

[Cave]

We have already established a few pages back that certain blue cards are much more banworthy than DRS but since those said cards constitute the format's identity to a great extent they are basically immunized from banning considerations. From now on all discussion about needed bannings should exclude the following cards: Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW, TNN, Wasteland because they represent the core of the format.

Force of Will is a blessing to the format. It's the glue that holds it together. People are talking about cantrips, not counterspells. Here in legacy we need powerful counterspells because we play powerful spells, full period. Nobody even mentioned banning force of will, nobody should want to.

[Gheizen64]

Force of Will is a blessing to the format. It's the glue that holds it together. People are talking about cantrips, not counterspells. Here in legacy we need powerful counterspells because we play powerful spells, full period. Nobody even mentioned banning force of will, nobody should want to.

Nobody ever talked about banning ponder or preordain either. As good as those are, the don't draw 3. They're more or less of the same power level of things like GSZ, Library, Confidant etc... And they don't push show and tell from the level of playable to really good cause they don't unstuck redundant combo pieces from your hand.

It's just the usual and dishonest slippery slope fallacy.

[Cave]

Nobody ever talked about banning ponder or preordain either. As good as those are, the don't draw 3. They're more or less of the same power level of things like GSZ, Library, Confidant etc... And they don't push show and tell from the level of playable to really good cause they don't unstuck redundant combo pieces from your hand.

It's just the usual and dishonest slippery slope fallacy.

I love how his post has got disgusted replies by four people in a row.

[mistercakes]

Nobody ever talked about banning ponder or preordain either. As good as those are, the don't draw 3. They're more or less of the same power level of things like GSZ, Library, Confidant etc... And they don't push show and tell from the level of playable to really good cause they don't unstuck redundant combo pieces from your hand.

It's just the usual and dishonest slippery slope fallacy.

i like playing storm, but it also enables infernal tutor quite a bit too. i'm sure we can come up with a list of interactions that make it entirely busted over the other cantrips.

[Crimhead]

Why did you slide True-Name Nemesis into that list of sacred cows?

My guess is bitterness.

[Megadeus]

i like playing storm, but it also enables infernal tutor quite a bit too. i'm sure we can come up with a list of interactions that make it entirely busted over the other cantrips.

Just as far as I've played, it makes Infernal Tutor hellbent much easier, allows Delver decks that food out to "unflood" by swapping spells for lands, it "counters" discard by hiding relevant spells, and it "rituals" miracles by putting them from hands on top. It also gets to put back stuff like an otherwise uncastable natural order target.

[NeckBird]

Mind twist in elves and black vise in stasis, some of the great predictions made in here about hypotetical oppressive unbans. I also definitely remember someone crying wolf at metalworker's unban cause it would "win on untap".

I think even land tax had some prediction about being oppressive in here.

Now it's all about that hollow one survival! I'm in stitches.

This is an hypotetical WG survival list for reference:

4 DRS
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Vengevines
1 Walla
1 Memnite
1 Loyal Retainer
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 Fauna Shaman
4 KotR
4 Thalia
1 Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Gaddock Teeg

2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords
4 SotF

23 Lands

Elesh norn allow you to murder fair decks, while iona is there for slower controllish MUs and as a safe valve vs combo in case you get to T4 or so to be able to play it.

An alternate take, RG survival!

4 Burning Inquiry
4 Faithless looting
4 Survival of the fittest
4 Squee, goblin nabob
4 Vengevines
4 DRS
4 Hollow one
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Flameblade adept
2 Hooting Mandrills
2 Street wraiths
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Anger?
18 lands

There's probably some dumb deck with LED as well in there, but i should actually start working now. Can't wait for the usual suspect calling me disabled, say there are obvious broken lists, and never provide anything actually so.

Pretty sure the difference between Survival of the Fittest and all the other garbage cards you named is that Survival HAS seen play in Legacy before. So much so that it actually got banned. We also know Hollow One has seen play in Modern and Vintage so why wouldn't it see play in Legacy with a powerful enabler? Also, I brought up Hollow One initially because everyone thinks you can just hate out Survival with grave hate which Hollow One can completely ignore. Your playing Memnite in your list to be a zero drop to trigger Vengevine. You know what else can be a zero drop to trigger Vengevine?