[Primer] Dredge

[Parcher]

They will probably keep in all glimpses and Natural orders, so it may be risky to skip a turn.

Completely accurate. And one of my main reasons for posing the question. They can definitely kill us before we get a second turn. But at the same time, if we are on the draw and they open with Surgical into Ooze, then we are in deep trouble anyway. I mean, like Gravestone, neither of those cards advance their primary game plan. But unlike us, they can win with anything once we are shut down. So we need to force them to have it. Especially on the draw. And Firestorm is still a trump, since they can't stop it. On the play, Gravestone is far less of a risk, and yet far less needed. If they don't have Surgical, we should win. Elves is basically a match we should win. I'm just assessing the cost of preventing the multi-hate blowout, vs the speed and redundancy loss by adding Grave, in a match we don't HAVE to run it.

[slave]

Elves is basically a match we should win.

My experience of elves in general, is that they bank on their speed to win, much like us.
Elves is the main reason I typically run Firestorm, over any other deck. I'm not sure Gravestone is where I wanna be here.

[mulder]

Just played against dredge with Eldrazi. Lost game 1 on turn two, lost game two on turn one after having played a Relic on my turn. Opponent said he wins on turn two at the latest almost every time. This deck is absolutely busted why isn't it played more?

[Parcher]

Just played against dredge with Eldrazi. Lost game 1 on turn two, lost game two on turn one after having played a Relic on my turn. Opponent said he wins on turn two at the latest almost every time. This deck is absolutely busted why isn't it played more?

Legacy players have a Gentlemen's Agreement not to.

[Ronald Deuce]

Legacy players have a Gentlemen's Agreement not to.

I lost it.

[slave]

Just played against dredge with Eldrazi. Lost game 1 on turn two, lost game two on turn one after having played a Relic on my turn. Opponent said he wins on turn two at the latest almost every time. This deck is absolutely busted why isn't it played more?

He won on Turn 1? Yeah that hardly ever happens, sounds like he's shitting you.
Why isn't it played more? Because T1 terminal hate exists I guess.

Seriously though, given the steep entry price for legacy, I AM surprised Dredge isn't more common as the deck is mostly cheap/budget cards by legacy standards.

[mulder]

He won on Turn 1? Yeah that hardly ever happens, sounds like he's shitting you.
Why isn't it played more? Because T1 terminal hate exists I guess.

Seriously though, given the steep entry price for legacy, I AM surprised Dredge isn't more common as the deck is mostly cheap/budget cards by legacy standards.

Well... he went turn one Petal, Petal, LED, Coliseum, sac Petal for Breakthrough and in response sac the LED discarding a Grave Troll. And he dredged his entire deck on turn one :-/.

[Cyrus]

Well... he went turn one Petal, Petal, LED, Coliseum, sac Petal for Breakthrough and in response sac the LED discarding a Grave Troll. And he dredged his entire deck on turn one :-/.

In Stompy shells Leyline of the Void is so much better than relic because of that; if you had that hate t1 he'd probably be in a lot of trouble having to dig for an answer.

[Ronald Deuce]

Well... he went turn one Petal, Petal, LED, Coliseum, sac Petal for Breakthrough and in response sac the LED discarding a Grave Troll. And he dredged his entire deck on turn one :-/.

That's a god-draw, you know; I ended up cutting FKZ because I was reaching too hard for it when I didn't need to.

The reasons Dredge isn't played more are that a) as Slave said there's terminal hate for it that is free and available from turn 0-1, and b) it is inconsistent and has no ways to counter this problem once opening hands are determined. Don't get me wrong: I love Dredge, but I've definitely been infuriated piloting it before.

I still love how boss this deck is against Miracles.

[Orim67]

I think that dredge is probably the most underrated deck in legacy right now. My list performs very well vs all the popular fair decks. Even though dredge is inconsistent, you will still win most of your games vs them, because dredge is hard to disrupt and strong draws are very powerful. It is also very convenient that leagues don't take long online when you play dredge. I had a wr of about 63% with dredge online, which is close to the expected wr of tier 1 or tier 2 decks, but like I said, I feel very confident vs all the popular fair decks, which should be worth something.

[Oestrus]

Dredge made Top 8 in the Legacy portion of EU Eternal Weekend!

https://www.magicbazar.fr/article/52...l_weekend_2018

Really interesting list, too.

[Oestrus]

Dredge made Top 8 in the Legacy portion of EU Eternal Weekend!

https://www.magicbazar.fr/article/52...l_weekend_2018

Really interesting list, too.

I just realized they only have the main deck at 56 cards. Curious what the remaining 4 are.

[notkevin]

I just realized they only have the main deck at 56 cards. Curious what the remaining 4 are.

At a guess, I'd say Therapies? I don't see a similar replacement, like other lists that eschew the card (although the only recent case I can remember for that was when the pilot admitted it was an oversight during deck construction :P).

[mistercakes]

i'm pretty sure the guy who t8 was the same guy who posted a few weeks ago.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1041884

[Unlif3]

i'm pretty sure the guy who t8 was the same guy who posted a few weeks ago.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1041884

That is correct, I've been running hot lately.
For the French readers out there, I have posted an in-detail report here http://www.legacy-france.org/index.p...15#entry278382.

My decklist can be found on the Eternal Week-End website (the missing cards being 4 Cabal Therapies) and should be posted anytime soon on tcdecks/mtgtop8 I guess.
As a disclaimer, please note that this decklist has some major flaws I managed to win in spite of, and should therefore not be taken as a reference. Playing double Putrid Imp with only 11 lands + 2 Petals is a mistake (for keeping a hand of Petal into Looting is decent, but Petal into Imp is way less).
In the sideboard I meant to play Wear//Tears instead of Fragmentize & CoV, but couldn't find my copies before the event ; and 4 copies of Firestorm is probably overzealous - 3 should be enough, with the extra slot freed this way to be dedicated either to an Ancient Grudge or a 3rd Silent Gravestone imho.

I had a double bye due to winning the Eternal Week-End Trial, 3 weeks ago.

R3 vs Colorless Eldrazi - Not much to say, he didn't mulligan agressively enough in his Leylines and that was it.
2-1, 3-0.
R4 vs. BUG Control - Some mistakes from my opponent, conceding G1 too fast and Surgicaling the wrong target G2.
2-0, 4-0.
R5 vs. BR Réanimator - I hoped to face none, considering their bad MU vs. Grixis Delver, and got crushed because I didn't have any kind of GY-hate and the MU still being atrocious.
1-2, 4-1.
R6 vs. BUG Delver - I lost G2 to legit Tarmo beatdown, he lost G3 to a manascrew.
2-1, 5-1.
R7 vs. Moon Stompy - Got hit by CotV@1 OTP G1, but he had a weak hand and managed to get there with my discard step. G2 he managed to assemble a double Ensnaring Bridge but Ashen Rider is dope.
2-0, 6-1.
R8 vs. 4c Control ft. Punishing-Grove - I kept a mull to 5 with double LED into Faithless OTP. He forces the first LED, to then get crushed by the second one. He has no choice but to force a T1 Gravestone G2, and then manascrews.
2-0, 7-1.
R9 vs. Moon Stompy.
ID, 7-1-1.
QF vs. Grixis Delver - he has the toss, LED off my land-less hand gets Dazed, then I find a Coliseum into Study, which gets Forced and he topdecks Wasteland the turn right after. Game 2 was as one-sided as was G1, he has DRS and double active Force, into a Surgical two turns later.

The deck is well-positioned, GY-hate is less prevalent than maybe ever before, especially in big events where people try more actively to hedge against the top dogs (Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, etc.). I think this low-hate window is to be exploited before it closes, so fellow Dredgers, to arms!

[Oestrus]

That is correct, I've been running hot lately.
For the French readers out there, I have posted an in-detail report here http://www.legacy-france.org/index.p...15#entry278382.

My decklist can be found on the Eternal Week-End website (the missing cards being 4 Cabal Therapies) and should be posted anytime soon on tcdecks/mtgtop8 I guess.
As a disclaimer, please note that this decklist has some major flaws I managed to win in spite of, and should therefore not be taken as a reference. Playing double Putrid Imp with only 11 lands + 2 Petals is a mistake (for keeping a hand of Petal into Looting is decent, but Petal into Imp is way less).
In the sideboard I meant to play Wear//Tears instead of Fragmentize & CoV, but couldn't find my copies before the event ; and 4 copies of Firestorm is probably overzealous - 3 should be enough, with the extra slot freed this way to be dedicated either to an Ancient Grudge or a 3rd Silent Gravestone imho.

I had a double bye due to winning the Eternal Week-End Trial, 3 weeks ago.

R3 vs Colorless Eldrazi - Not much to say, he didn't mulligan agressively enough in his Leylines and that was it.
2-1, 3-0.
R4 vs. BUG Control - Some mistakes from my opponent, conceding G1 too fast and Surgicaling the wrong target G2.
2-0, 4-0.
R5 vs. BR Réanimator - I hoped to face none, considering their bad MU vs. Grixis Delver, and got crushed because I didn't have any kind of GY-hate and the MU still being atrocious.
1-2, 4-1.
R6 vs. BUG Delver - I lost G2 to legit Tarmo beatdown, he lost G3 to a manascrew.
2-1, 5-1.
R7 vs. Moon Stompy - Got hit by CotV@1 OTP G1, but he had a weak hand and managed to get there with my discard step. G2 he managed to assemble a double Ensnaring Bridge but Ashen Rider is dope.
2-0, 6-1.
R8 vs. 4c Control ft. Punishing-Grove - I kept a mull to 5 with double LED into Faithless OTP. He forces the first LED, to then get crushed by the second one. He has no choice but to force a T1 Gravestone G2, and then manascrews.
2-0, 7-1.
R9 vs. Moon Stompy.
ID, 7-1-1.
QF vs. Grixis Delver - he has the toss, LED off my land-less hand gets Dazed, then I find a Coliseum into Study, which gets Forced and he topdecks Wasteland the turn right after. Game 2 was as one-sided as was G1, he has DRS and double active Force, into a Surgical two turns later.

The deck is well-positioned, GY-hate is less prevalent than maybe ever before, especially in big events where people try more actively to hedge against the top dogs (Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, etc.). I think this low-hate window is to be exploited before it closes, so fellow Dredgers, to arms!

OMG you're eAlphax? I'm such a fan!

[Unlif3]

OMG you're eAlphax? I'm such a fan!

What have I done to deserve a fanbase? é_è

[Orim67]

Hey Unlif3, congrats on your top 8!

I saw your match vs mengucci and I think that Leyline of the void might be pretty good right now. Reanimator got more popular. What did you cut for it? Do you bring it in in other matchups other than Dredge and Reanimator?

[Unlif3]

I saw your match vs mengucci and I think that Leyline of the void might be pretty good right now. Reanimator got more popular. What did you cut for it? Do you bring it in in other matchups other than Dredge and Reanimator?

I don't recall playing vs. Mengucci at all - I'm quite sure I didn't - and I don't play Leyline of the Void, so I guess you spectated another Dredge player
I do like Leyline of the Void in heavy meta combos (I bring it in against Reanimator, Dredge, and ANT) - that's what I play on MTGO due to the heavy amount of combo decks, but in a field where I mostly expected Delver/4c Control, my sideboard was 4 Firestorm (should be 3), 2 Gravestone (should be 3), 2 DR, 1 Iona, 1 Rider, 2 Fragmentize (should be W//T), 1 CoV, 2 Street Wraith. The full list has been corrected and is now available here.

[contra]

Bought back into Dredge online again since it's dirt cheap and well positioned. I thought I'd share the sideboard guide I put together which includes the most common match-ups from mtgtop8 and the average amount/type of hate in their respective sideboards again from mtgtop8.

I've been playing LED dredge for about 10 years now and while I can only think of three relevant printings during this time (Confluence, Amalgam, Gravestone), the deck recently has taken a new direction - hence the new primer. I don't think many would argue that this is in large part due to deathrite and the fact that surgical extraction seems to be
- exclusively - the premier sideboard GY hate. Prior to this I had never considered Street Wraith in LED dredge, but in the face of deathrite and surgical it presents a new dynamic. Without further ado....

60 MAIN
13 LANDS (& Lotus Petal)
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 Lotus Petal
25 CREATURES
1 Prized Amalgam
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Street Wraith
22 SPELLS
2 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

15 SIDEBOARD
1 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Serenity
3 Silent Gravestone
2 Wear // Tear

Grixis Delver - 2 Surgical, 2 Pyroblast
+3 Firestorm
-2 Breakthrough
-1 Golgari Thug

Czech Pile - 3 Surgical, 1 Deluge
+3 Silent Gravestone
-2 Breakthrough
-1 Golgari Thug

DnT - 2 RIP, 1 Containment, 1 Surgical, 1 Faerie
+3 Firestorm
+2 Wear // Tear
-2 Putrid Imp
-3 Street Wraith

Miracles - 2 Surgical, 2 Pyroblast, 1 EE
+3 Silent Gravestone
-2 Breakthrough
-1 Cabal Therapy

Storm - 1 Surgical, 1 Ground Seal, 1 Chain OV
+2 Dread Return
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+1 Breakthrough
-1 Prized Amalgam
-2 Putrid Imp
-1 Golgari Thug

Dark Depths - 2 Surgical, Bojuka Bog
+1 Breakthrough
-1 Putrid Imp

Dragon Stompy - 50% Leyline, 1 Fallout, 1 KReturn
+2 Wear // Tear
+1 Serenity
-2 Putrid Imp
-1 Street Wraith

Reanimator - 1 Faerie Macabre
+3 Silent Gravestone
+2 Faeri Macabre
-1 Prized Amalgam
-2 Putrid Imp
-1 Street Wraith
-1 Golgari Thug

Elves - 3 Surgical, Scooze
+3 Firestorm
+2 Dread Return
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-2 Putrid Imp
-1 City of Brass
-1 Prized Amalgam
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Ichorid

S&T - 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Surgical, 2 Pyroclasm
+2 Wear // Tear
+2 Dread Return
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-2 Putrid Imp
-2 Breakthrough
-1 Prized Amalgam

Lands - 1 Surgical, Bojuka Bog
+2 Silent Gravestone
+2 Faerie Macabre
+1 Breakthrough
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Prized Amalgam
-1 Street Wraith

Eldrazi - 4 Leyline
+2 Wear // Tear
+1 Serenity
+1 Breakthrough
-1 Prized Amalgam
-2 Putrid Imp
-1 Street Wraith

Stoneblade - 2 Surgical, 1 RIP, 1 Contain, 1 Pyroblast
+2 Dread Return
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-1 Prized Amalgam
-2 Putrid Imp

Burn - 2 Faerie Macabre, 1 Graffdigger's Cage
+2 Dread Return
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-1 Prized Amalgam
-2 Putrid Imp