I have decided that the only people who will honestly say "Piledriver sucks" are either sworn enemies of the deck and want people to play sub-optimal lists or are people who understand that the deck is able to do the card-advantage thing but don't realise how it works in practice. I know when I was new to the deck I thought 2 Drivers was all you needed. Getting in lots of reps taught me that even 3 is not enough.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13386&d=278496&f=LE 4x Goblin Piledriver was pretty good for me on this day... and literally every other time I've sleeved up Goblins. Whatever, do what you will but if you're new to the deck, just try out 4 Drivers and wait till you slam 3 of them out of nowhere with a haste lord out.
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I think you're being a bit narrowminded here. No one is really saying driver sucks, what they're saying is we don't want to cast it on curve turn 2 . I have had great success, including high places at major events running 1-2 pile drivers. I would never go down to 0, but I am a big advocate for a toolbox build with many 1-of cards like sparksmith and weir ding, as well as settler.
I encourage you to try out some other lists, and see how much a difference it ends up making
My list has been running 4 MWM and 4 Driver for a while now. Having a lower curve has been much better for me overall (my list also plays 4 Tarfire, 4 Gempalm, and 2 Weirding).
The Matron/Ringleader plan (and Gempalm) is more than enough card advantage to outgrind even the grindiest decks in the format without needing to go even higher up the curve with more 4 and 5 drops. Without DRS, the format is going to get away from playing as many bigger grindier spells. The only matchup where you might want more grind would be Miracles, but I don't think it's needed.
Piledriver, and MWM with Therapy (postboard), dramatically improves the combo matchups, which are really the most important ones to improve. This deck does a good job of beating up most fair decks already.
Chainwhirler and Trashmaster were also 2 big additions.
I'm not saying piledriver sucks. I'm not even advocating going down to 0, though that list that just did well on mengucci's stream ran 0, all we're saying is there's more than one way to skin a cat.
I'm not really sure there's ever going to be a "correct" build of goblins a la grixis delver. There really never has been. As long as it's the core, the rest is just flex and preference. I'd never root against any goblins deck, even one with 4 piledrivers. If it's working for you and that's how you want to play, you do you.
Incorrect, there used to be an agreed-upon 50 or so cards for the main that was agreed upon, but then Recruiter got banned and food chain lost its ground.
I do believe there is a set of correct 60 cards to play for goblins, or at least a set of 50-56 with flex slots.
I believe the correct number of Piledriver is 4. I believe that because of all the removal I see coming from every direction. Even if it's not what will win you the game, I believe that a lot of non-goblins players will kill it first because fear.
Before Steve quotes me, I would like to confirm that this is exactly what I said
1.) @Hanni: Saying "I would rather play more Piledriver than more 4-5 drops" is a false dilemma because that is not what the choice is between
2.) @B_Blitz: There is always a correct version of a deck for any given tournament, and if we assume that on aggregate the global metagame is homogeneous then there is a 'correct' version of Goblins just as there is a 'correct' version of Grixis Delver or any other deck. (Otherwise everybody should be justifying their card choices with qualifiers like "locally I expect to play against a lot of XYZ"). The only reason why there isn't an established goblins list is because for the past few years hardly anybody has been winning with it so there isn't any good data to base a list off of
3.) @SAB: If your opponents are playing a ton of removal this is a situation where Piledriver is bad
4.) @Steve: You can even look at the league you recorded for youtube semi-recently to find spots where Piledriver was poor. If you honestly think the card has been good for you every single time then in all the spots it's making you lose you are finding some other excuse (subconsciously or not) to satisfy your confirmation bias.
Only speaking about where you speak to me:
I prefer, in a deck with over 20 creatures, to overwhelm removal heavy lists with targets rather than cow away. I think if there is a lot of removal, I need to compensate for it.
False dilemma how? It's a direct correlation. The format has gotten much more efficient over the years. Even with DRS gone, you cannot expect to compete with the rest of the format if your deck is filled with 7+ 4 drops and 2+ 5 drops. Especially not with a manabase consisting of 4 Ports, 4 Caverns, and some number of dual lands.
Lowering the curve could be done by me running a different 2 drop instead, sure. But Piledriver adds an aggro/combo element to the deck that is important for racing combo decks, while also giving us the ability to close out games before the opponents can find their hate against fair decks.
Either way, you're rebuttal to my previous post is pretty weak. The fact is, Goblins doesn't need so many bigger cc Goblins. Those lists are clunky, often having nothing relevant to do until turn 3 (Porting without Vial on turn 2 is pretty anemic). By lowering the curve, Goblins becomes much better positioned against the rest of the format. And for my list, Piledriver is an important part of that.
Its really funny when i see this argument "piledriver helps race combo decks...", becouse classical list isnt the correct list if you are in a combo meta.
Whats is more aggro than a creature thats put a lot of other creatures in game when facing a deck that not want to interact with your board?
I believe there are definitely cards we should be playing or consider playing. The number of cards and what we play and don't play, I think a lot of different lists can succeed, because of the core shell (matron/ringleader/lacky/vial) is tutor/card advantage/cast-stuff-for-free. For christ sakes, there's the twitch veedio of Mengucci and his buddy 2-0'ing a bunch of games WITH NO PILEDRIVER in the 75. If you want to be inflexible on this, you are hindering yourself, not me.
If by "non-goblins players" you mean legacy noobs, ok I guess so. Justifying piledriver because he attracts spot removal, like why not play 4 instigators i'm sure they'd do the same thing...
I think the meta is wide open and I think a lot of different lists and interpretations of the deck can be successful. When the 4x piledriver list start consistently outperforming lists who play less, I'll be a man and admit I'm wrong.
Hello Chieftains,
just 5-0ed a league with monoR.
Played the mirror twice and THREE times agains RUG Delver.
Chainwhirler is a such a beast !
Like the good old days ...
List:
core:16
4 chieftain
4 mwm
1 sting
4 gempalm
2 whirler
1 pyrokiesis
2 Tarfire
1 trashman
2 sgc
23 lands ( 4 waste / 3 Port )
Something I've been considering and will try once I get more time....is playing 3 smugglers copter main. 1-2 piledrivers and about 3 moggs are what I want to start on.
Copter has done wonders for the merfolk community varying between 2-4 copies depending on the list, I need to see how it plays here.
Great Job Bob!!
Got to watch matron into chainwhirler tear apart nimble mongoose and friends just a couple hours ago, may have been you. The delver player was cursing up a stream at triple cavern of souls.
Really love the get em dead approach with chieftain, mogg, and incinerator.
Also does Jim Davis have a point with krenko just being worse than additional siege gangs or....what do the rest of you guys think?
Play the deck with and without them and see for yourself. Krenko is a card that wins games in the right situation. He is good when you're ahead, behind, and breaks games wide open that are stalemates. You opponent has to answer him or he just starts getting out of control and wins you the game. I will never understand the "win more" argument some have floated before about him.
Also, pretty sure Smuggler's Copter is not where we want to be.
Congrats bob2008....no piledrivers, huh?
I wanted to chime in on a few of these discussions. First off, the piledriver thing. I personally run 2-3 piledrivers consistently. I think his merits have actually shifted a bit after the bans. Before the bans, I played 3 piledriver at Duel for Duals because I wanted to be able to race TNN, and his pro blue was exceptionally relevant against Czech Pile, which could only block him with DRS. If he was eating all the removal spells, then my chainwhirlers and kiki were sticking around. I also found him to be fantastic in lists with kiki, copied piledrivers just dishes out stupid damage against combo. However, post-bans, I evaluate him differently. Now, he's fulfilling his more traditional role: Killing combo fast. I think we're going to start to see the rise in UB Reanimator in particular, but also SnS. Pressuring life totals is extremely relevant against griselbrand decks, especially the slower ones. He also gets better as we run fewer and fewer tarfires (I've been loving mogg fanatic partially for this reason). He does however suffer from a rise in D&T and RUG, since he is middling against RUG in most situations (though occasionally he shines and forces a trade with a goyf), and TERRIBLE against D&T. I'm currently at 2 in my list, contemplating a 3rd. There will likely be a rise in stoneblade decks playing 3-4 TNNs as well, so he might be worth that 3rd slot. He does really suck in a lot of gameplay situations, but there are plenty of times where he's your only out. If you forgo piledriver in your list, you probably have to compensate by playing a higher number of anthem lords like Chieftain and Trashmaster. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I really think we want to be on the warchief side of things right now.
I would only run 4x piledriver if the meta was filled with SnS, Reanimator, Storm, and blue creature decks. If the non-blue creature decks take up a large percentage of the meta, he probably should still be played, but I think 1-2 would be fine there. He's not a card you really want against Maverick.
@Knighthawk; I played Copter for 6 months for extensive testing. The card is actually very very good, but kinda suffers against Daze decks, and I cut it after K command started going everywhere. That said, I was always impressed by the card in a variety of situations. Having a flier puts a pretty nice plug in the massive hole of a weakness we have to them. No longer does Serra Avenger/Delver/Marit Lage/Griselbrand just get to eat your life total for free, and no longer does TNN just moat you. I suppose moat no longer moats you tooI said I'd consider playing it again if Piledriver is bad and Stoneforge mystic decks become big again. That does appear to be becoming the case, so it might be worth testing again. Here's my old match data and my builds. Probably outdated, but take a look for inspiration. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing Check the decklist tabs to see the ones that were successful, there were 2 or 3 I took to win my Legacy weeklies. The reports are somewhere in this thread as well.
Jim Davis posted a video playing Goblins in his Youtube channel. I'm watching it right now, so can't tell how it goes yet, but he plays a pretty classic list and spends ~10 minutes at the start explaining his choices and how he feels about some cards.
Thanks for sharing, I also only watched the first 12 minutes and this seems very interesting and promising.
And although he can be wrong, I will quote him:
" all four Piledriver for sure: Piledriver is your best card in your bad match-ups [aka combo] and still fine in your good match-ups."
- Jim Davis.
Envoyé de mon Blackphone 2 en utilisant Tapatalk
Alright, some thoughts on Goblin Piledriver.
It seems the discussion has been centered around whether Piledriver is good or bad, and whether or not it belongs in Goblins. That is understandable, but I don't think it's asking the right questions, and I don't think it's very productive. Because different builds of the deck are trying to accomplish different things, and because they use different tools to do so, it's better instead to look at the functions of Goblin Piledriver, what roles it can play from a deck building perspective, and how it fits into your list.
Goblin Piledriver mainly does three things.
1. It shortens your clock and helps you better play the aggro game.
This is mainly relevant against combo decks in game one, where you don't have a lot of disruption and your main game plan is to race them.
2. It helps you be more explosive and turn the corner more quickly
This is the role that Piledriver fills the best, and in my opinion the main reason that it has been a staple of the deck for so long. The threat of a potential one turn kill in conjunction with Goblin Warchief forces the opponent to "play scared" or risk getting blown out.
3. It requires an answer from fair decks, which is important in grindy matchups.
One issue that you will sometimes run across with Goblins going late is that even though you are drawing a lot of cards with Matron and Ringleader, sometimes you will be left with a lot of air after having gone through most of your deck. Some matchups are difficult to win when all you have left is a bunch of 1/1s, and piledriver is another card that can win the game virtually on its own in these low resource games.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
So, let's go over these roles one by one.
1. The aggro game
Piledriver is good here, but the fact is that I rarely want to play the pure aggro game outside of combo matchups. Since my plan vs Storm is to Earwig Squad them (an on average faster "kill" than Piledriver) I don't need Piledriver in that matchup, although obviously it would still be good.
2. Explosivity
This is as previously mentioned the role that Piledriver fills the best. However, for this to work properly you need a hastelord in play. Preferably a Goblin Warchief. Because my list is low on those due to the inclusion of both Earwig Squad and Goblin Chainwhirler as other threedrops, Piledriver gets significantly worse. Goblin Chieftain however can do a similar job without requiring another card, albeit less effectively. If your list has a lot of hastelords however (such as classic 4x Warchief builds, I recommend having at least some numbers of Piledrivers in the deck).
3. Grinding
This isn't something that Piledriver is particularly spectacular at, just something that is important to keep in mind when constructing your 75. Some people play a lot of bombs. My list has Earwig Squad and Goblin Chainwhirler as beaters. Others have Piledriver. Just make sure that your list has enough gas to be able to win the long games against other grindy decks when pure card advantage isn't always enough.
These are just some roles that Piledriver can play. You might come up with different ones or categorize them differently. The point isn't to copy any specific approach but to think about your card choices.
When you can answer the questions "what does putting this card into my deck accomplish" and "why do I think it accomplishes these things better than the other options", you know you're doing it right. Although hopefully your answers will be more nuanced than the very short explanations I included earlier.
Peace.
/Sandro
R/B Goblins
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That was the best post in this thread for a very long time.
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Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Its an interesting point about a classical build player vision. But instigator do a lot of this things too...
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